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Disinterested posted:You are bad at history. For starters, you do realise that the Zionist movement got going quite without us European and American non-Jews advocating for it? Yes, but guess who fronted the cost and for what reasons.
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Feb 17, 2015 01:51
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Effectronica posted:So everyone in favor of encouraging Jews moving back to Israel is in favor of black separatism, right? Just to be clear, I am not in favor of encouraging Jews to move to Israel, I am in fact a Jew who has decided to move out, and know many who either have done this or wish they could. But the rationale of those who think this is a viable idea is not completely insane and is not entirely divorced from reality and history. As for black separatism, I think I would understand African Americans who would do this. It is up to them to decide what kind of political organization makes sense to them. They could easily point to mass incarceration and persistent structural racism against them in the US as signs that assimilation was not working for them. Furthermore, many African Americans, in an interesting parallel to American Jews, seem to gain a lot of inspiration from existing West African nations and cultures. So it is even reasonable to support a Jewish state even if you do not think all or most Jews should move to it, just as being a cultural/political nexus. There was even an small, short-lived movement of "Cultural Zionists" who wanted Zion to be a cultural center for world Jewry, no more. How to have a variety of different cultures and ethnicities work together in the same country is not a generally solved problem. The US is much closer than many other countries to resolving it, but it obviously leaves much to be desired, and nativism seems to be easily triggered.
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Feb 17, 2015 01:51
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With all due respect to the colonialist european regimes without whom Israel couldn't have been founded it was still ultimately a country founded by Jews, the zionist movement was composed of Jews who were primarily concerned about rising anti-semitism, jewish desire for self governance in itself doesn't require justification.
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Feb 17, 2015 01:51
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It's perfectly fine for any minority group to desire self governance, but I think you can grasp the irony of deciding that you want self governance in order to oppress other people and exclude all others. But this is getting off topic, in today's world Israel exists and people need to learn to deal with it, but thinking that all Jews moving to Israel is a solution to antisemitism is putting the cart before the horse.
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Feb 17, 2015 01:55
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Venom Snake posted:It's perfectly fine for any minority group to desire self governance, but I think you can grasp the irony of deciding that you want self governance in order to oppress other people and exclude all others. That isn't an idea intrinsic to all Zionism, just the version of Zionism that won out. Thank Jabotinsky et al.
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Feb 17, 2015 01:57
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Disinterested posted:That isn't an idea intrinsic to all Zionism, just the version of Zionism that won out. Thank Jabotinsky et al. Yes, Jews did not seek self governance inorder to opress under any sensible logical definition. They sought self governance; the apartheid, occupation and opression sprang forth in the process due to a variety of reasons and circumstances.
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Feb 17, 2015 02:06
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Absurd Alhazred posted:Just to be clear, I am not in favor of encouraging Jews to move to Israel, I am in fact a Jew who has decided to move out, and know many who either have done this or wish they could. But the rationale of those who think this is a viable idea is not completely insane and is not entirely divorced from reality and history. You do realize that these aren't solutions to racism, though. Israel could not have survived if most nations, especially most powerful nations, were openly antisemitic, and an American black separatist nation would have a hell of a time surviving without much less racism than currently exists.
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Feb 17, 2015 02:08
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Feb 17, 2015 02:23
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Effectronica posted:You do realize that these aren't solutions to racism, though. Israel could not have survived if most nations, especially most powerful nations, were openly antisemitic You have it backwards. Most powerful nations were openly anti-semitic in the sense that they were very happy to limit the amount of Jews coming in there, if not always openly oppress those who were already there. Hence the failure of the Evian Conference where they basically said "na, we're not taking care of those oppressed Jews, let the Germans treat them as they please". quote:and an American black separatist nation would have a hell of a time surviving without much less racism than currently exists. They both presuppose racism (or other forms of xenophobia) as unavoidable facts of human existence, so they do not expect to solve racism, just deal with it in a way that stop their own oppression. If you presuppose that and look at how Zionism has worked, it had in the past successfully took advantage of that racism: whether it was by "helping" the Germans get rid of some of their Jewish populace (and thus saving their lives), or whether it was "helping" the British maintain their racist colonialist "mandate" in Palestine. They used the tools at their disposal to carve out a niche for Jews in a hostile world. You also seem to be ignoring the reason that there was so much support for Zionism: the competition had been rooted out. Whether it was the Germans making their parts of Europe unlivable (eventually literally), or the Soviets suddenly rediscovering antisemitism after pretending to be above it, particularly during the Stalin years. The Bund, a Jewish socialist, secular, anti-Zionist group used to be much more popular than Zionism, and in fact Zionism was almost forced to generate a Socialist wing to be able to pull those young idealistic Jews in and away from the Bund. Zionism worked with the racism that it saw as unavoidable, and always does best when racism against Jews is the most powerful. Anyone who is "anti-Israel" and anti-semitic makes Israel stronger. As for your arguments against black separatism, note what you are looking at here. Jews don't have separatism in the US, but they do have connection to separatists in Israel, and it hasn't made their position in the US harder, at least in the last ~50 years. Instead, they are a thriving model minority. Can you seriously demonstrate to an African American that Jews made some kind of error in supporting Zionism by pointing at how Jews are doing now in the US?
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Feb 17, 2015 02:33
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Absurd Alhazred posted:You have it backwards. Most powerful nations were openly anti-semitic in the sense that they were very happy to limit the amount of Jews coming in there, if not always openly oppress those who were already there. Hence the failure of the Evian Conference where they basically said "na, we're not taking care of those oppressed Jews, let the Germans treat them as they please". You agree exactly with what I'm saying, and you're also misunderstanding my points in the process. The reason Israel exists, rather than being cut off completely from the rest of the world or having been destroyed in the intervening 60-odd years since its foundation, is because the world is not so antisemitic that they loathe Jews totally. A black American nation would only be able to survive and thrive if people were willing to allow it to exist and willing to deal with it as a full nation.
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Feb 17, 2015 02:37
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Still no word on where he got the weapons, reportedly two different pistols and an M/95 (C7A1) that he used in the first attack. A whole bunch of the latter were stolen from the army in 2009 and have probably floated around the gang and biker communities ever since, only a few of them were recovered.
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Feb 17, 2015 02:42
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Are you surprised by this? What's the character of these rallies?
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Feb 17, 2015 02:48
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Effectronica posted:You agree exactly with what I'm saying, and you're also misunderstanding my points in the process. The reason Israel exists, rather than being cut off completely from the rest of the world or having been destroyed in the intervening 60-odd years since its foundation, is because the world is not so antisemitic that they loathe Jews totally. If you assumed antisemitism as an overarching hatred that will countermand any other interest, where Jews would be chased to the ends of the Earth, then Zionism would have failed. If you saw antisemitism as an unavoidable reality that is nevertheless manageable if a state of Jews is powerful enough to protect them and to be a force on the international stage, as long as it managed to put itself outside of the European's way, then you would get Israel as of a few decades ago, before they got high on their success with playing with American interests in the Middle East. Zionist and Israeli leaders and thinkers have tackled these issues with writings and actions spanning more than a century. This isn't some unlikely hypothetical. This actually has worked so far, and millions of Jews were not killed in Israel, while they were in Europe. quote:A black American nation would only be able to survive and thrive if people were willing to allow it to exist and willing to deal with it as a full nation. I guess if you're talking about African Americans setting up a country inside the US then we are talking about something entirely different; because the Autonomists, a Jewish group trying something similar in parts of Poland, in an attempt to revive the Four Lands and a somewhat beneficial form of living that Jews had in Poland and Lithuania a few centuries ago, were slaughtered completely by the Nazis. I imagine the best relevant example, though, would be to look at the American Indian reservations and see if they look like a good model. In any event, your argument does not actually raise an issue that Zionism has not already dealt with by focusing on a Palestine that was part of a decaying empire and thus ripe for quick immigration and development, the natives be damned, along with having a natural affinity for the population in question, as Zion features so prominently in Jewish tradition. In the black separatist case, I guess a Zionist sympathizer would encourage them to seek their roots in West Africa, while a Territorialist Zionist would suggest that they find some colonial outpost that is currently suffering from weak native control. I am not sure that will be as easy to do now as it was in the late 19th and early 20th Century, though.
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Feb 17, 2015 02:55
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 TEAYCHES posted:Are you surprised by this? What's the character of these rallies? It was a memorial event organised by all the major political parties. About 30,000 people, some speeches, music and a moment of silence. Some marched from the synagogue, most just showed up at the site. Far as I can tell it was just a solemn memorial. PM said the usual stuff, "We must stand together", etc. The attacker was apparently somewhat of a loner, had a temper and was very vocal about I/P (his parents are Palestinian). He did well in school when he bothered to show up, but he seldom talked to anyone unless spoken to and didn't socialise. Outwardly he didn't appear particularly religious. Some are saying he also had a "weed problem". Just a few weeks ago he was released from prison, having served time for an unprovoked stabbing on a train in 2013. He finished his GED in prison. SplitSoul fucked around with this message at 03:11 on Feb 17, 2015 |
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Feb 17, 2015 03:03
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I wonder how people will somehow spin the giant rallies in support of the Jewish communities in Europe as "antisemitism on the rise".
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Feb 17, 2015 03:03
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Absurd Alhazred posted:If you assumed antisemitism as an overarching hatred that will countermand any other interest, where Jews would be chased to the ends of the Earth, then Zionism would have failed. If you saw antisemitism as an unavoidable reality that is nevertheless manageable if a state of Jews is powerful enough to protect them and to be a force on the international stage, as long as it managed to put itself outside of the European's way, then you would get Israel as of a few decades ago, before they got high on their success with playing with American interests in the Middle East. Zionist and Israeli leaders and thinkers have tackled these issues with writings and actions spanning more than a century. This isn't some unlikely hypothetical. This actually has worked so far, and millions of Jews were not killed in Israel, while they were in Europe. That still puts the lie to the idea that Jews are in imminent danger in Europe from Shoah II, because antisemitism is clearly not powerful enough for people to avoid buying Israeli products or giving Israel arms as a proxy state or any of the various things that people do or refrain from doing that are incompatible with them viewing Jews as subhumans. quote:I guess if you're talking about African Americans setting up a country inside the US then we are talking about something entirely different; because the Autonomists, a Jewish group trying something similar in parts of Poland, in an attempt to revive the Four Lands and a somewhat beneficial form of living that Jews had in Poland and Lithuania a few centuries ago, were slaughtered completely by the Nazis. I imagine the best relevant example, though, would be to look at the American Indian reservations and see if they look like a good model. That is exactly what black separatists want, however, especially since black American culture, and especially those parts of it which are closely associated with black separatism, views being black in America as having heritage from all of Africa. Back-to-Africa is deader than dead.
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Feb 17, 2015 03:07
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Venom Snake posted:I wonder how people will somehow spin the giant rallies in support of the Jewish communities in Europe as "antisemitism on the rise". I'm sure they'll find a way. Honestly, if you look at race/ethnic relations in Europe and think to yourself that Jews are the most downtrodden whipping boy there, you seriously aren't paying attention. I'd rather be a Jew there than a Moroccan migrant, not to mention a Roma. Effectronica posted:That still puts the lie to the idea that Jews are in imminent danger in Europe from Shoah II, because antisemitism is clearly not powerful enough for people to avoid buying Israeli products or giving Israel arms as a proxy state or any of the various things that people do or refrain from doing that are incompatible with them viewing Jews as subhumans. It doesn't at all. Throughout the time African Americans were under the constant threat and reality of lynchings in the South the US was doing all of those things with West African countries. Or to take another example, with all the acts of violence and repression against Muslims in Europe, its nations still trade and ally with Muslims counties. quote:That is exactly what black separatists want, however, especially since black American culture, and especially those parts of it which are closely associated with black separatism, views being black in America as having heritage from all of Africa. Back-to-Africa is deader than dead. I don't quite follow. What do black separatists want?
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Feb 17, 2015 03:22
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Absurd Alhazred posted:It doesn't at all. Throughout the time African Americans were under the constant threat and reality of lynchings in the South the US was doing all of those things with West African countries. Or to take another example, with all the acts of violence and repression against Muslims in Europe, its nations still trade and ally with Muslims counties. I don't think that the USA was supplying a lot of arms to Ethiopia or Liberia during the 1890s through 1940s, which were the period when lynchings were a constant threat. The actual process of decolonization occurred over the height of the civil rights movement, too, when racism in America decreased significantly. The fact that Islamic nations are treated with rough equality also suggests that anti-Muslim sentiments are not quite at a point where regular violence is a threat, which is a good thing. quote:I don't quite follow. What do black separatists want? A black nation carved out of the continental United States.
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Feb 17, 2015 03:30
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Absurd Alhazred posted:
Traditionally they wanted a separate nation for African-Americans while acknowledging that being African American was distinct from being African.
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Feb 17, 2015 03:31
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Effectronica posted:I don't think that the USA was supplying a lot of arms to Ethiopia or Liberia during the 1890s through 1940s, which were the period when lynchings were a constant threat. The actual process of decolonization occurred over the height of the civil rights movement, too, when racism in America decreased significantly. The fact that Islamic nations are treated with rough equality also suggests that anti-Muslim sentiments are not quite at a point where regular violence is a threat, which is a good thing. Ethiopia is in East Africa. And you are absolutely wrong about Liberia: quote:U.S. assists Americo-Liberians If anything the US gave more aid and direct military support to the Americo-Liberians during that time than the US does to Israelis. For the US to support Israel that much, you'd have to have actual US troops bombing Gaza and otherwise pacifying the natives. quote:A black nation carved out of the continental United States. Oh. Well, in that case, it is coherent to be a Zionist and to oppose black separatism. Or, rather, not think that it is going to work out. Zionism was not about carving out a part of Europe as a Judistan.
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Feb 17, 2015 03:49
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Absurd Alhazred posted:Ethiopia is in East Africa. And you are absolutely wrong about Liberia: So in other words, they assisted in the colonial repression of blacks by a "less-black" group? Haha. And you seem really hung up on this West African thing, as though it's somehow important to the majority of Americans, or even to a noteworthy minority of them.
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Feb 17, 2015 03:51
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Effectronica posted:So in other words, they assisted in the colonial repression of blacks by a "less-black" group? Haha. And you seem really hung up on this West African thing, as though it's somehow important to the majority of Americans, or even to a noteworthy minority of them. You're the one who brought up a comparison to black separatists, and I did not know what exactly they were, but I was aware of widespread cultural connection of African Americans to West Africa, so it seemed like a valid and pertinent comparison. Your ignorance of this connection (and of basic facts of the relevant history) is not my problem, but yours.  If you want to avoid that, fine, I'll return to your original question: Effectronica posted:So everyone in favor of encouraging Jews moving back to Israel is in favor of black separatism, right? The answer is "no".
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Feb 17, 2015 04:04
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Absurd Alhazred posted:You're the one who brought up a comparison to black separatists, and I did not know what exactly they were, but I was aware of widespread cultural connection of African Americans to West Africa, so it seemed like a valid and pertinent comparison. Your ignorance of this connection (and of basic facts of the relevant history) is not my problem, but yours. It's fine, I wasn't really talking to you, but those connections are something that is largely irrelevant to culture. Most black nationalism focused and focuses on a black identity that is derived from a pan-Africanism but still asserts itself as unique and distinct from it. Thus black Cleopatra. West Africa got more attention because of its historical link, but there really isn't that much sense of "Dahomeian nationalism" or a Songhai identity in black American culture, now or in the 1960s.
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Feb 17, 2015 04:09
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Uh-oh, looks like someone dropped the ball. Apparently the Prison Service had warned the Security and Intelligence Service that the would-be attacker had uttered wishes to go to Syria to fight for IS. They did say he had "been on their radar", but apparently not much had been done to investigate this further before this happened.
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Feb 17, 2015 04:12
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Absurd Alhazred posted:Depends on what the population growth would have been like. The survivors were on average richer and hence with lower birth-rates. On the other extreme, the Eastern European Jews were notoriously poor and fertile. I am not sure where on that spectrum the average of those who were murdered fit. SplitSoul posted:Uh-oh, looks like someone dropped the ball. Apparently the Prison Service had warned the Security and Intelligence Service that the would-be attacker had uttered wishes to go to Syria to fight for IS. They did say he had "been on their radar", but apparently not much had been done to investigate this further before this happened.
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Feb 17, 2015 08:15
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emanresu tnuocca posted:I thought two people spat behind him, regardless, my claim is that this video doesn't prove in any way that a jew being openly jewish would get constant abuse and moreover (the alleged moving of the goal posts) that there are many places around the world where openly being a member of minority group will yield a similar if not much greater amount of abuse, I am certain that there are streets in the united states where if a black man were to walk around for 10 hours straight he could capture a significant amount of abuse on tape for it. Facing bigotry as a member of a minority group is always lovely, I don't question that there is a considerable presence of anti-semitic sentiment held by a sizeable portion of Fance's muslim communities, it sucks and I'm sure that there are plenty of Jews in france who'd just prefer to get away from all of that and move to places where these sentiments are less common, yet many other Jews seem to prefer keep being French, I just don't think it's fair to say France is brazenly anti-semitic and that anti-semitism in France at the moment is at the point where Jews can't go about their business and lead regular lives. There are absolutely Parisian neighbourhoods where you could not live openly as a Jew and go about your business and lead a regular life. This is as it always has been. It's fairly important to distinguish between two types of antisemitism in Europe. There's the kind displayed by many Muslim immigrants, who will abuse individual Jews as proxies for Israel and in many cases have had conservative religious upbringings which reinforces a popular but recent Arabic narrative of a Western Jewish conspiracy as the most fundamental enemy of Islam. There's also I guess what you'd call 'European' antisemitism, that is founded on myths about 'international Jewry' controlling banks, is far more concerned with Jewishness as a race, but which I bet you most white antisemites couldn't explain if you asked them. They just don't like Jews because mumble mumble Hollywood Wall Street mumble or they get a skeezy feeling about them for absolutely no reason. As a Jew in Paris you're far more likely to be abused as a proxy for Israel, but elsewhere the species of antisemitism from which the Protocols sprang is still alarmingly prevalent. You'd be astonished at how revoltingly antisemitic whole towns in rural France without a single Muslim are. Smudgie Buggler fucked around with this message at 13:02 on Feb 17, 2015 |
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Feb 17, 2015 12:00
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Smudgie Buggler posted:You'd be astonished at how revoltingly antisemitic whole towns in rural France without a single Muslim are, though. How does this particular form of antisemitim manifests itself ?
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Feb 17, 2015 13:04
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That video was made to ape the "Ten hours walking as a woman in NYC" video and it pales in comparison.
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Feb 17, 2015 15:12
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Smudgie Buggler posted:There are absolutely Parisian neighbourhoods where you could not live openly as a Jew and go about your business and lead a regular life. This is as it always has been. unpacked robinhood posted:How does this particular form of antisemitim manifests itself? The European brand to which Smudgie refers arose from the long-term state-less condition of the cultural Jew prior to the establishment of Israel. They can't get their own nation, so they'll infect ours from what I understand was Hitler's reason for hating the Vienna Jews. Whenever I hear someone at a cafe or downtown talk about police states and New World Orders, I can't help but wonder immediately if they have a secret problem with Jews.
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Feb 17, 2015 15:42
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unpacked robinhood posted:How does this particular form of antisemitim manifests itself ? What a stupid question. "Yes, I see, but how exactly is this bigotry a problem for the target group?" edit: This might be a bit uncharitable. But it is a silly question. It manifests as suspicion, ostracisation, informal boycott etc. Occasional open hostility, but mostly through hundreds upon hundreds of microaggressions experienced daily. You know, racism. You said in your previous post that 90% of antisemites in France are Muslims and/or Arabs. This is probably true in Paris, and maybe other urban centres like Lyon, Marseilles, Toulouse and so forth, but rural France is a loving backwards place, by and large, and it's a highly decentralised nation. A huge number of French people still think the exact same way as their parents and grandparents, whose only problem with Hitler if they had one at all was that he invaded their country. SedanChair posted:That video was made to ape the "Ten hours walking as a woman in NYC" video and it pales in comparison. Yeah, dude only got spat on twice and nobody shouted that he had nice legs so what's with all the crybabying about being Jewish in a continent that made a concerted and coordinated effort to exterminate the entire people a mere 70 years ago? Ain't nothing compared to being a woman in America. You're a loving absurd human being, you know that? Smudgie Buggler fucked around with this message at 15:57 on Feb 17, 2015 |
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Feb 17, 2015 15:48
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Didn't the (Jewish) woman from he original video also get a bunch of antisemitic flack later on?
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Feb 17, 2015 15:59
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Moving to Israel is such a hypocrite move though. It's like the jihadists who don't like the treatment of Muslims in the West so they go somewhere where they can be way worse to other people. I mean I get it from a selfish standpoint but you lose any leg to stand on to complain from that point on. Not that it stops anyone...
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Feb 17, 2015 16:17
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DarkCrawler posted:Moving to Israel is such a hypocrite move though. It's like the jihadists who don't like the treatment of Muslims in the West so they go somewhere where they can be way worse to other people. I mean I get it from a selfish standpoint but you lose any leg to stand on to complain from that point on. Not that it stops anyone... I mean, I'm super happy for any Jew coming to Europe, or deciding to stay, but I can really understand any Jew who's currently planning to move.
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Feb 17, 2015 16:33
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Smudgie Buggler posted:But it is a silly question. I was thinking about the video when I asked this and was wondering if a jewish person visiting countryside France would get so much open hostility. e: Teachers in some of the worst neighborhoods in france have a hard time talking about the holocaust etc without a bunch of arab/muslim kids wreaking havoc. I wonder if the country antisemites you're evoking really "act" on it in any way if they actually exist. unpacked robinhood fucked around with this message at 17:05 on Feb 17, 2015 |
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Feb 17, 2015 16:56
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Cingulate posted:Arguably, moving to Israel in an attempt not to suffer antisemitic aggression has a long and fruitful history, and staying in Europe trying to tough it out has a rather awful history (although of course there as little chance of ever fleeing for a large part of the victims of the Shoah). Israel is under daily attack by vicious antisemites, though, at least if you believe their PR. Which is entirely plausible and probably an explanation for the bunker mentality they've got going, but it shouldn't make moving there a pleasant prospect for anyone. To be honest, I'd sympathise much more with a Jew going to America than one going to Israel - going to Israel to be safe from antisemitism just seems counterproductive.
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Feb 17, 2015 16:59
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I can understand the selfish motivation to finally be on top. I don't sympathize with it, and I'll just disregard the racism complaints of anyone who voluntarily (most people who moved to Israel moved from worse places which didn't really leave them with much of a choice in the end) moves to an legit apartheid state where racial discrimination is codified in a law. I don't understand it from a safety standpoint. More Jews have died from terrorism in Israel and everyone in the region loathes them. And you'll kids get drafted to combat to uphold a brutal racial hierarchy. DarkCrawler fucked around with this message at 17:02 on Feb 17, 2015 |
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Feb 17, 2015 16:59
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V. Illych L. posted:Israel is under daily attack by vicious antisemites, though, at least if you believe their PR. Which is entirely plausible and probably an explanation for the bunker mentality they've got going, but it shouldn't make moving there a pleasant prospect for anyone. To be honest, I'd sympathise much more with a Jew going to America than one going to Israel - going to Israel to be safe from antisemitism just seems counterproductive.
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Feb 17, 2015 17:42
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DarkCrawler posted:I can understand the selfish motivation to finally be on top. I don't sympathize with it, and I'll just disregard the racism complaints of anyone who voluntarily (most people who moved to Israel moved from worse places which didn't really leave them with much of a choice in the end) moves to an legit apartheid state where racial discrimination is codified in a law. By which I only mean to say - the issue is complicated, and it's not as if Jews had some obvious, dominant strategy everyone should rationally follow available to them. It's about choosing what kind of antisemitism they prefer. Edit: in retrospective, it seems important to emphasize I do not mean to say the end of apartheid was not the obvious and rational choice. It was, clearly. Only that even the end of apartheid was accompanied by negative developments.
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Feb 17, 2015 17:44
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Smudgie Buggler posted:Yeah, dude only got spat on twice and nobody shouted that he had nice legs so what's with all the crybabying about being Jewish in a continent that made a concerted and coordinated effort to exterminate the entire people a mere 70 years ago? Ain't nothing compared to being a woman in America. Correct, there didn't appear to be any reason for him to fear for his safety.
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Feb 17, 2015 17:55
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I don't think Jews from places like post-Holocause Europe, USSR or Arab states can be blamed for going to the only place available to them, when the choice is that or brutal oppression or even death. I think French or American Jews escaping antisemitism to Israel in year 2014 are disgusting hypocrites who will be less safe as the result of their choice. It's certainly not a similar situation by any metric and shouldn't be presented as such.
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Feb 17, 2015 17:57
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