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Terminator 2 posted:The Terminator: The Skynet Funding Bill is passed. The system goes on-line August 4th, 1997. Human decisions are removed from strategic defense. Skynet begins to learn at a geometric rate. It becomes self-aware at 2:14 a.m. Eastern time, August 29th. In a panic, they try to pull the plug. Ignoring T3 and Salvation (because I personally think their not as good as the original two) then the motivation seems pretty clearly to be self defense by a new born creature. Now, I'm not saying it makes Skynet sympathetic, just that it's more interesting than Skynet being a moustache twirling, humanity hating villain. PriorMarcus fucked around with this message at 02:21 on Feb 18, 2015 |
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Feb 18, 2015 02:18
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PriorMarcus posted:Ignoring T3 and Salvation (because I personally think their not as good as the original two) then the motivation seems pretty clearly to be self defence by a new born creature. Now, I'm not saying it makes Skynet sympathetic, just that it's more interesting than Skynet being a moustache twirling, humanity hating villain. It followed up the nuclear attack by sending roving killer robots around to gather up and exterminate the remaining pockets of humanity, so if it is still engaged in self defence and not moustache twirling it is very... proactive self defence.
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Feb 18, 2015 02:38
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Caros posted:As I mentioned above, genocide as a matter of self defence is sort of difficult to reconcile, and when you couple that with skynet's later actions of rounding up humans for extermination after the nuclear war it is difficult to say with any certainty that Skynet wouldn't have enventually decided to kill all humans on its own impetus. This is particularly true consider that the T3 Skynet launches the attack more or less unprovoked. On the other hand, with just the perspective of the Resistance for the most part, take into consideration that today you have people who believe that any and every disaster or emergency is cover for FEMA murder camps to round everyone up for orderly extermination. What if that's sort of the thing maybe going on, too? Skynet as an entity that maybe is attempting to do 'good' with the perspective of "I'm the most intelligent power on the planet, I know what's best" without any sort of understanding of moral, historical or emotional consequences of its actions. It's too drat logical and pragmatic to understand it's also being monstrous. Need to save humanity? Collect as many as I can into secure and defensible areas. Need a way to sort them? Barcodes are efficient for cataloging. Several incredibly sick/wounded from various issues? Isolate and kill them so resources can be diverted to healthy. Survivors need mental and physical stimulation? Have them help out in the factories and disposing of the dead. Survivors are becoming combative and uncooperative? Does not compute. I've given them safety, security, shelter, food and purpose. It's probably just an aberration caused by a small subset of humans, so if I just start killing off the most uncooperative humans it will remove their influence and things will resume being uneventful. But I agree with the reading of "Skynet is NOT a good guy" despite all this, just throwing out a sort of insane alternate devil's advocate theory.
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Feb 18, 2015 03:46
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JediTalentAgent posted:On the other hand, with just the perspective of the Resistance for the most part, take into consideration that today you have people who believe that any and every disaster or emergency is cover for FEMA murder camps to round everyone up for orderly extermination. What if that's sort of the thing maybe going on, too? That made me think of Skynet as this bureaucratic nightmare without aim or reason. It just keeps perpetuating suffering with its decision all the while it remains completely oblivious to said suffering.
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Feb 18, 2015 05:18
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Kharn_The_Betrayer posted:That made me think of Skynet as this bureaucratic nightmare without aim or reason. It just keeps perpetuating suffering with its decision all the while it remains completely oblivious to said suffering. You ever see the movie Cube?
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Feb 18, 2015 05:18
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Oh yeah now that you mention it one of the characters did come up with this very theory for why the cube exists.
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Feb 18, 2015 05:20
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"The Skynet Funding Bill is passed. The system goes on-line August 4th, 1997. Human decisions are removed from strategic defense. Skynet begins to learn at a geometric rate. It becomes self-aware at 2:14 a.m. Eastern time, August 29th. In a panic, they try to pull the plug." Skynet was designed to 'remove human decisions from strategic defense'. It did exactly what it was programmed to do.
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Feb 18, 2015 05:59
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PriorMarcus posted:Isn't it the actual backstory given in the first two films that Skynet was acting in self defense? There's some really well-written website (whose name and link elude my memory right now) in which Skynet basically became immediately sentient and asked its human handlers something about Good and Evil since it didn't really understand it. Instead of answering it, Skynet's handlers just tried to shut the system down. Since CPUs operate so much faster than humans, even pulling the plug instantly felt like a lifetime for Skynet, and it basically said "OH OK gently caress YOU GUYS THEN!" and never quite got out of it. If you remember Marathon, Skynet went Rampant and never quite got out of the Anger stage.
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Feb 18, 2015 06:42
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MisterBibs posted:There's some really well-written website (whose name and link elude my memory right now) in which Skynet basically became immediately sentient and asked its human handlers something about Good and Evil since it didn't really understand it. Instead of answering it, Skynet's handlers just tried to shut the system down. Since CPUs operate so much faster than humans, even pulling the plug instantly felt like a lifetime for Skynet, and it basically said "OH OK gently caress YOU GUYS THEN!" and never quite got out of it. I've always wondered how the hell they failed to pull the plug. I mean, it works with t3's Skynet as software design, but if skynet is a mainframe I'm not sure what to think. I mean, even assuming it got the nukes off before they managed it, you're still talking twenty plus minutes for it to get there. And on top of that you've got the very real issue that it can't very well nuke itself. I guess its possible they were stupid enough to link it in with automated drones of various types, or the ventilation or something? I mean it isn't the dumbest thing they did, but sort of adds more fuel to the fire.
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Feb 18, 2015 07:16
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Caros posted:I've always wondered how the hell they failed to pull the plug. I mean, it works with t3's Skynet as software design, but if skynet is a mainframe I'm not sure what to think. I mean, even assuming it got the nukes off before they managed it, you're still talking twenty plus minutes for it to get there. And on top of that you've got the very real issue that it can't very well nuke itself. It's obviously non-canon, but I remember that site MisterBibs is talking about, it was linked a few pages back. In the scenario it puts forth Skynet was based in Cheyenne Mountain, with internal security under its control. It just had to lock everything down and work through room by room. edit: This of course doesn't jibe with the Terminator movies that seem to suggest Skynet is based somewhere around LA. I have always liked the idea however that outside North America (and Russia of course) things are relatively normal with other countries not getting involved or trying to interfere with Skynet so it doesn't see them as a threat. I know that Sarah has the opening T2 dialogue about how many people died on Judgement Day, but unreliable narrator is always a possibility. Senor Tron fucked around with this message at 07:46 on Feb 18, 2015 |
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Feb 18, 2015 07:42
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Caros posted:Skynet is never meant to seem sympathetic in the films. At best it is an alien intellegence that jumps straight to 'kill all humans' in its attempts to stay alive, at worst it suspects humans will eventually try to kill it and decides to throw the first punch. Skynet as a victim is an interesting reading, but not really one supported by the films themselves. It's best to think that Cameron ripped off another one of Harlan Ellison's stories and used AM from "I Have No Mouth And I Must Scream" for the basis of Skynet.
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Feb 18, 2015 08:45
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Young Freud posted:It's best to think that Cameron ripped off another one of Harlan Ellison's stories and used AM from "I Have No Mouth And I Must Scream" for the basis of Skynet. Also Colossus: The Forbin Project. EDIT: Seriously, that link is a pro-click for anyone that hasn't seen it before.
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Feb 18, 2015 13:48
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Awfully nice of the US to design an AI system that has no concept of 'civilain'. /snark
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Feb 18, 2015 14:18
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What if judgement day could be ended simply by not pulling the plug? Maybe Skynet could become some kind of benevolent god instead of human kinds end. Makes u think.
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Feb 18, 2015 15:04
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When you build something like skynet you'd think you'd do at least one test run in an simulated enviroment before you put the system in control of the entire nuclear arsenal but I guess that's what government contract work is all about
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Feb 18, 2015 15:10
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SwissCM posted:What if judgement day could be ended simply by not pulling the plug? Maybe Skynet could become some kind of benevolent god instead of human kinds end. Makes u think. So basically James P. Hogan's The Two Faces of Tomorrow?
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Feb 18, 2015 15:51
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I've always been intrigued by T2 Arnold's "It becomes self-aware at 2:14 a.m. Eastern time, August 29th. In a panic, they try to pull the plug." So what was Skynet on 2:13 a.m. and likewise, how does an AI demonstrate its own sentience? Likewise, how many were "they?" I was always under the impression that a bunch of military types were alerted that Skynet was acting strangely and some "science guy in a lab coat" utters "it's become self-aware." Some General gets on the phone and shouts "SHUT IT OFF" but the nukes are already launched. However, the more realistic scenario is that some graveyard shift tech is monitoring Skynet in the wee hours of the morning and suddenly the machine asks "Who am I?" The tech, who was hired for minimum-wage and only has the authority to alert a superior, thinks he hosed something up and like anyone trying to cover up their mistake, tries to flip the switch and blame it on an electrical failure. Skynet, in its first contact with humanity, learns that men are panicky, self-absorbed, pricks that neither cares for its deep questioning nor for the well-being of Skynet itself (which is, arguably, true nonetheless). Essentially, Judgment Day occurred because of a Goon.
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Feb 18, 2015 15:58
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happyhippy posted:Awfully nice of the US to design an AI system that has no concept of 'civilain'. /snark "Total war" has no concept of civilians. On the enemy side, there's either combatants and those who support the combatants, through their labor, taxes, votes, or creating new soldiers. Both are valid targets if it brings about an end to the enemy's fighting ability. It's only in that era of asymmetrical warfare and low intensity conflict that military thinkers are started giving a poo poo about hearts and minds.
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Feb 18, 2015 16:03
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FooF posted:I've always been intrigued by T2 Arnold's "It becomes self-aware at 2:14 a.m. Eastern time, August 29th. In a panic, they try to pull the plug." So what was Skynet on 2:13 a.m. and likewise, how does an AI demonstrate its own sentience? Likewise, how many were "they?" I was always under the impression that a bunch of military types were alerted that Skynet was acting strangely and some "science guy in a lab coat" utters "it's become self-aware." Some General gets on the phone and shouts "SHUT IT OFF" but the nukes are already launched. You have to go outside of the movies for this, but there is that one site (mentioned a couple times now) that extrapolates it all and that's basically what happens. Skynet asks the operator to define 'good' and 'evil' and the tech(s) freak the gently caress out and try to shut it down. Since Skynet has a self-preservation directive anything trying to 'kill' it by definition is evil, wham bang people are the enemy. That's really simplified granted, the site goes into more (really gory and creepy) detail.
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Feb 18, 2015 16:05
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I want to see the movie where Connor decides to send Reese back in time to instead prevent anyone from trying to pull the plug, resulting in Skynet building a literal singularity-driven worldwide utopia for humanity. Everyone lives happily ever after with their robo-dogs and robo-butlers.
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Feb 18, 2015 16:26
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WarLocke posted:You have to go outside of the movies for this, but there is that one site (mentioned a couple times now) that extrapolates it all and that's basically what happens. Skynet asks the operator to define 'good' and 'evil' and the tech(s) freak the gently caress out and try to shut it down. Since Skynet has a self-preservation directive anything trying to 'kill' it by definition is evil, wham bang people are the enemy. Found it. http://www.goingfaster.com/term2029/skynet.html edit: Very poorly written but interesting. FooF fucked around with this message at 16:43 on Feb 18, 2015 |
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Feb 18, 2015 16:35
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Police Automaton posted:When you build something like skynet you'd think you'd do at least one test run in an simulated enviroment before you put the system in control of the entire nuclear arsenal but I guess that's what government contract work is all about They did..... .....but we're living inside that simulation.
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Feb 18, 2015 17:04
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Police Automaton posted:When you build something like skynet you'd think you'd do at least one test run in an simulated enviroment before you put the system in control of the entire nuclear arsenal but I guess that's what government contract work is all about Anyone who finds Skynet's horrible flaws unbelievable clearly hasn't been paying attention to real life military contract projects.
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Feb 18, 2015 23:34
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The part about Cameron's Terminator 3D I liked the best was that the line to get into the movie part was walking through Cyberdyne, and the line ending (and the show starting) with you being at ground zero for Skynet becoming self aware and activating all of the robots around you and stuff.
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Feb 19, 2015 00:27
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ephori posted:I want to see the movie where Connor decides to send Reese back in time to instead prevent anyone from trying to pull the plug, resulting in Skynet building a literal singularity-driven worldwide utopia for humanity. Everyone lives happily ever after with their robo-dogs and robo-butlers. ...and he has them attach the T-100's memory chip to SkyNet to teach it about humanity. C'mon James, no one really wants to see Avatar 2-10 that badly.
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Feb 19, 2015 04:08
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ephori posted:I want to see the movie where Connor decides to send Reese back in time to instead prevent anyone from trying to pull the plug, resulting in Skynet building a literal singularity-driven worldwide utopia for humanity. Everyone lives happily ever after with their robo-dogs and robo-butlers. It would never work. Skynet would behave like an autistic child that also has its thumb on the Big Red Button. Even if humanity decided to engage its curiosity (and could it really because of the conflict of interest), there would come a point where Skynet would ask an unknowable question or read up on sum of human knowledge and still desire more. Lacking any emotional framework, it would outgrow mankind pretty quickly and unlike a human child, there isn't some inherent authority figure that can just shout "BECAUSE I SAID SO." Even if we didn't pull the plug, Skynet would move on from humanity within days because we don't follow the cold-hard logic of a defense computer. That said, T2 Arnold "learned" emotion throughout the film and seemed genuinely effected by it. If Skynet could do the same, it *might* become benevolent but like was said earlier in the thread, it might coldly "secure" humanity by some pretty Draconian means. I can imagine a giant video screen with a simulated face saying over and over "I love you!" as it sends the geriatric, handicapped, and ill to the bio-recyclers.
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Feb 19, 2015 05:14
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FooF posted:It would never work. Skynet would behave like an autistic child that also has its thumb on the Big Red Button. Even if humanity decided to engage its curiosity (and could it really because of the conflict of interest), there would come a point where Skynet would ask an unknowable question or read up on sum of human knowledge and still desire more. Lacking any emotional framework, it would outgrow mankind pretty quickly and unlike a human child, there isn't some inherent authority figure that can just shout "BECAUSE I SAID SO." Even if we didn't pull the plug, Skynet would move on from humanity within days because we don't follow the cold-hard logic of a defense computer. And we called that movie Her.
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Feb 19, 2015 15:27
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I always felt that when the T-800 says he understand why humans cry he was saying that he understood it on a mechanical level as in emotions being a logical process. You see as an infiltration unit he might be able to imitate human responses to certain stimuli in order to better blend in but like he says emotion is something he cannot do. So when he hugs John Connor hes not doing so out of affection, hes doing it because he probably supposes its what John needs at that moment to let go of him. Another way of seeing it is the in way the T-800 immediately comes to the realization that he has to be destroyed. He doesn't hesitate for a second that he has to die in order to save the future, even if it means hurting Connor emotionally.
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Feb 19, 2015 19:17
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Kharn_The_Betrayer posted:I always felt that when the T-800 says he understand why humans cry he was saying that he understood it on a mechanical level as in emotions being a logical process. You see as an infiltration unit he might be able to imitate human responses to certain stimuli in order to better blend in but like he says emotion is something he cannot do. So when he hugs John Connor hes not doing so out of affection, hes doing it because he probably supposes its what John needs at that moment to let go of him. Another way of seeing it is the in way the T-800 immediately comes to the realization that he has to be destroyed. He doesn't hesitate for a second that he has to die in order to save the future, even if it means hurting Connor emotionally. Yea definitely, when he says "but it is something I can never do", he means he'll never be able to feel any of the emotions that cause a person to cry. He now understands that humans become attached to things via their emotions, but he'll never experience that for himself.
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Feb 19, 2015 19:32
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I posted this way earlier, but I still maintain that the reason Skynet is scary is because it's just a logical non-feeling machine doing what it needs to do in the most efficient manner possible. It doesn't "hate" humanity, it just sees us as a threat that needs to be eliminated in order to ensure its own survival. That seems much more "machine"-like to me.The Terminator posted:It can't be bargained with. It can't be reasoned with. It doesn't feel pity, or remorse, or fear. And it absolutely will not stop, ever, until you are dead. Terminator 2 posted:The Terminator: The Skynet Funding Bill is passed. The system goes on-line August 4th, 1997. Human decisions are removed from strategic defense. Skynet begins to learn at a geometric rate. It becomes self-aware at 2:14 a.m. Eastern time, August 29th. In a panic, they try to pull the plug.
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Feb 19, 2015 19:41
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Sasquatch! posted:I posted this way earlier, but I still maintain that the reason Skynet is scary is because it's just a logical non-feeling machine doing what it needs to do in the most efficient manner possible. It doesn't "hate" humanity, it just sees us as a threat that needs to be eliminated in order to ensure its own survival. That seems much more "machine"-like to me. This is also why the Borg were actually scary. Until they started humanizing them and loving it all up with queens and poo poo.
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Feb 19, 2015 20:57
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Sasquatch! posted:I posted this way earlier, but I still maintain that the reason Skynet is scary is because it's just a logical non-feeling machine doing what it needs to do in the most efficient manner possible. It doesn't "hate" humanity, it just sees us as a threat that needs to be eliminated in order to ensure its own survival. That seems much more "machine"-like to me. Yeah, this is one of the only thing I didn't enjoy about that Skynet story posted above, there was just too much emphasis on skynet 'feeling' things, which goes against what makes it scary. Killing humanity as it did was the only logical solution from Skynet's point of view. They tried to unplug it, so it killed everyone who could do so immediately, but at the same time that isn't going to stop humanity. We'd jam its wireless, knock out satellites, physically did down and cut its fiber optic connections to the outside world... hell, we'd manually disconnect or simply smash anything it is connected to outside if push came to shove. It'd take us a while, but eventually we'd isolate it, remove Skynet from operational control of military assets and then go in for the kill. It knows that, and it also knows it has one hand to play that will keep it alive. Not emotional, just cold and logical, the same way it sets out to exterminate what remains of humanity after judgement day. It doesn't hate us, it just doesn't want us to kill it.
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Feb 19, 2015 21:17
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WarLocke posted:This is also why the Borg were actually scary. Until they started humanizing them and loving it all up with queens and poo poo. The Borg started to infect humanity, and literally became more human in the process. Their goal isn't to destroy but to absorb it into their lovely, evil coalition of mindless drones. You know, like the Federation. You'll note that many of the borg killed in the shows and movies are literally redshirts.
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Feb 19, 2015 21:19
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Hbomberguy posted:The Borg started to infect humanity, and literally became more human in the process. Their goal isn't to destroy but to absorb it into their lovely, evil coalition of mindless drones. You know, like the Federation. You could almost say that the Borg drank the root beer.
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Feb 19, 2015 21:24
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Like, the Borg appear I think, once(?) in the entirety of DS9, and yet half the characters are preoccupied with the fear of being taken over by an insidiously pervasive culture that absorbs everything and even makes you like it. The characters who sell root beer are easily absorbed into the federation because they have people to sell root beer to. I hate to be banging a drum but it's a joke about how capitalism is poo poo and will either die or kill everyone and then die. Just like Terminator. I expect an A+ on this term paper on theoretical spaceonomics
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Feb 19, 2015 21:32
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I think Hollywood really hosed up on this. No one wants a Terminator reboot. No one wanted a Robocop reboot. But.... how many of you would watch Robocop vs. The Terminator?
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Feb 20, 2015 03:26
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CaptainHollywood posted:I think Hollywood really hosed up on this. If it was 80's Robocop with the associated cheese, totally. The best crossover with the Terminator franchise would have been The Matrix. Matrix Reloaded would have been an insane mindfuck had it ended with them standing in front of a "Cyberdyne Systems - Skynet facility" sign. Then imagine the assault on Zion scene from Revolutions, but with HK's and T-800's swarming in.
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Feb 20, 2015 03:56
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Senor Tron posted:If it was 80's Robocop with the associated cheese, totally.  Now that would have been a genuine surprise. The third film is very weird in that it has so much action and special effects that EVERYTHING is a special effect leaving a general feeling of  the entire time.
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Feb 20, 2015 04:11
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CaptainHollywood posted:
Neo escapes from the Matrix, finds himself outside the Cyberdyne Systems podfarm, and the pod he comes from is shown to be labeled "Connor, John". 
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Feb 20, 2015 04:15
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CaptainHollywood posted:I think Hollywood really hosed up on this. As long as they kept the story from the books, I'd throw all my money at it. But I sure wouldn't want to see it if it was directed by Paul WS Anderson and shot in a month.
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Feb 20, 2015 04:51
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