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savinhill posted:I'm a little ways into Michael Faber's Book of Strange New Things and it has the whole coming into contact with weird, hard-to-communicate-with aliens going on so far. I went into this not knowing anything much about the plot, so I could be wrong, but it seems like that will be the focus for most of the book. I think it even had a reference to Solaris early on . I'm reading "The Martian" right now and it's good, and hard to put down. Rusty fucked around with this message at 05:00 on Feb 18, 2015 |
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Feb 18, 2015 04:57
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Thanks for the recommendations, y'all!PopetasticPerson posted:ALSO, how necessary is it to have read other Ian Banks books before The Excession? The idea sounds pretty cool but I've shied away from the Culture series so far because I have a hard time suspending disbelief in universes in which there is fairness and justice and whatnot...too much ASoIaF I suppose. "What if the Federation from Star Trek was run by a bunch of anarchist, hedonist AI controlled space ships that decided they instead needed to intervene everywhere and spread actual, for real post-scarcity without necessarily considering the psychological effects it would have on the "lesser" races, which they seem to consider somewhere between pets and toys?" Boom, you know everything you need to know about the world to start reading the Culture. Fairness and Justice are... complicated in such a world, so say the least. One person's utopia is another's hell is another's uncomprehending chaos. A much more in depth answer to How The Culture Works can be found here: http://www.vavatch.co.uk/books/banks/cultnote.htm The Culture books can be read in any order, but generally the accepted best two starting ones are The Player of Games and The Use of Weapons. Excession focuses on the AIs and their dealings the most. Read Consider Phlebas before Look to Windward and Use of Weapons before Surface Detail, but otherwise they're all standalone books set in the same world (and even in those cases, the connections are really loose).
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Feb 18, 2015 06:09
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I'd say read Player before Weapons just cause it gives a better idea of the internal structure of the culture whilst Weapons is more of an examination of the hosed up poo poo they do when special circumstances call.
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Feb 18, 2015 06:17
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I thought Player of Games was a pile of reprehensible poo poo while Use of Weapons was a fine followup to Consider Phlebas in the context of "boy this whole Culture thing is a pile of poo poo"
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Feb 18, 2015 06:23
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Not sure why anyone would say that. Phlebas was like a...proto culture novel, I guess? It's less a cerebral excercise of wit like the others and more of a swashbuckling pirate adventure in space. In the end the protagonist realises that They Were Right All Along anyway.
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Feb 18, 2015 06:44
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The Culture is weird because no matter what you do, you'll never be as good as the AIs. You can have whatever you want, but everyone else can have it too because there's no such thing as resources or money or limited land. You can do whatever you want, because there are no restrictions or consequences or rules, except perhaps they'll lock you up some place perfectly pleasant and friendly if you attempt genocide. And therefore, there's almost no reason to do anything beyond what feels good. Needless to say, some people find this infuriating. They need to have things others do not, need fences there so that they can jump over them, need rules they can break, people can can be better than, need to know there isn't a hard limit at which they will hit a wall and never, ever get better than the godlike inhuman beings that control every aspect of their lives... And that's before we get into the fact that the future the Culture is handing out isn't evenly distributed by any means, and that the AIs will use people as their pawns as they see fit with no real regard or consideration, throwing the entire "free will" and "anarchy" aspects into question. I love that Banks doesn't come down on whether or not the Culture is good or bad. They just are. I liked Player of Games. I thought it was an interesting examination of the libertarian ideal of the "self-made man" when confronted with the Gods, and what that kind of inferiority complex would drive someone to do. I didn't like it as much as Use of Weapons or Excession, but I still thought it was neat. And it's really short, so it's not like you're sinking a huge commitment in there.
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Feb 18, 2015 07:04
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Toph Bei Fong posted:except perhaps they'll lock you up some place perfectly pleasant and friendly if you attempt genocide. Or you'll get meatfucked >:3
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Feb 18, 2015 07:14
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Toph Bei Fong posted:The Culture is weird because no matter what you do, you'll never be as good as the AIs. You can have whatever you want, but everyone else can have it too because there's no such thing as resources or money or limited land. You can do whatever you want, because there are no restrictions or consequences or rules, except perhaps they'll lock you up some place perfectly pleasant and friendly if you attempt genocide. And therefore, there's almost no reason to do anything beyond what feels good. Needless to say, some people find this infuriating. They need to have things others do not, need fences there so that they can jump over them, need rules they can break, people can can be better than, need to know there isn't a hard limit at which they will hit a wall and never, ever get better than the godlike inhuman beings that control every aspect of their lives... And that's before we get into the fact that the future the Culture is handing out isn't evenly distributed by any means, and that the AIs will use people as their pawns as they see fit with no real regard or consideration, throwing the entire "free will" and "anarchy" aspects into question. I love that Banks doesn't come down on whether or not the Culture is good or bad. They just are. I think the point is that they do the arithmetic and work out that this situation is perfect for 99.999% of the billions of people in the culture and that .001% can be put to better use/accomodated otherwise without scratching their nigh-infinite resources at all. Most of the yearnings you describe are the product of growing up in a society where you don't have everything you could possibly want and striving/work are considered ideals. The same way they'll happily completely destroy some random civilization's society because their simulations indicate this is less costly in terms of suffering than letting things happen naturally. Hedrigall posted:Or you'll get meatfucked >:3 I thought being a meatfucker meant you liked humans way too much.
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Feb 18, 2015 07:32
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For fantasy that has a decent world building story but also tons of action, pretty much any Gemmell book works. There's an overarching storyline to most of his novels. The Rigante is sort of a weird setting that goes from fantasy ancient britian and rome to fantasy middle age rome through the series. Still, the best books involve an old dude who wails on poo poo with a somewhat magic double bladed axe.
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Feb 18, 2015 07:37
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PopetasticPerson posted:ALSO, how necessary is it to have read other Ian Banks books before The Excession? The idea sounds pretty cool but I've shied away from the Culture series so far because I have a hard time suspending disbelief in universes in which there is fairness and justice and whatnot...too much ASoIaF I suppose. I'm checking out Embassytown, The Invincible, and Book of Strange New Things as of now...I haven't read His Master's Voice yet because I was under the impression it was mostly satire and I'm looking for something more serious. Am I totally wrong about that? There is also Neal Asher, which have a more morally ambiguous universe than Banks, but with a similar theme i.e. AIs rule everything. Best horrible ecosystems out there as well, The Skinner is the best book to start with.
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Feb 18, 2015 07:39
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One of the Culture's strengths is that it isn't a polemic. Banks presents a world and trusts you to decide whether you want to be horrified or inspired by it - and trusts that you'll appreciate the craft either way.
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Feb 18, 2015 07:46
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Toph Bei Fong posted:They need to have things others do not, need fences there so that they can jump over them, need rules they can break, people can can be better than, need to know there isn't a hard limit at which they will hit a wall and never, ever get better than the godlike inhuman beings that control every aspect of their lives... There's some things post-scarcity utopia can't buy. For 
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Feb 18, 2015 07:56
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Slavvy posted:I think the point is that they do the arithmetic and work out that this situation is perfect for 99.999% of the billions of people in the culture and that .001% can be put to better use/accomodated otherwise without scratching their nigh-infinite resources at all. Most of the yearnings you describe are the product of growing up in a society where you don't have everything you could possibly want and striving/work are considered ideals. Exactly. It just so happens that come of our protagonists fall into this category. They're a little more interesting to read about that folks who are happy doing whatever they want forever  For those into that sort of thing, Use of Weapons reads quite nicely as a reaction to/commentary on Isaac Asimov's Foundation books. The entire series could be seen as a reaction to The Foundation, right on down to the name itself, but when Zakalwe is literally dressed up like The Mule in one of the early chapters, and implications this has based on the book's structure... Hedrigall posted:Or you'll get meatfucked >:3
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Feb 18, 2015 07:56
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Stupid_Sexy_Flander posted:For fantasy that has a decent world building story but also tons of action, pretty much any Gemmell book works. There's an overarching storyline to most of his novels. The Rigante is sort of a weird setting that goes from fantasy ancient britian and rome to fantasy middle age rome through the series. What was the one where the guy gets into a mustket war with napoleon-era rome, kills some rapists, ~~swordplay lives on~~, lots of people shot with flintlocks? I goddamn love that book. Reading Gemmel is like watching those really formulaic cop shows where it's the same story/situations every time but you just like the taste of it. General Battuta posted:One of the Culture's strengths is that it isn't a polemic. Banks presents a world and trusts you to decide whether you want to be horrified or inspired by it - and trusts that you'll appreciate the craft either way. This. e: Toph Bei Fong posted:For those into that sort of thing, Use of Weapons reads quite nicely as a reaction to/commentary on Isaac Asimov's Foundation books. The entire series could be seen as a reaction to The Foundation, right on down to the name itself, but when Zakalwe is literally dressed up like The Mule in one of the early chapters, and implications this has based on the book's structure... Holy poo poo 
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Feb 18, 2015 07:59
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That was the last 2? books of the Rigante series. Ravenheart and Stormrider I think.
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Feb 18, 2015 08:04
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Slavvy posted:I thought being a meatfucker meant you liked humans way too much. They called the GCU Grey Area that because it liked to read humans' minds without their consent.
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Feb 18, 2015 08:11
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Toph Bei Fong posted:The Culture books can be read in any order, but generally the accepted best two starting ones are The Player of Games and The Use of Weapons. Excession focuses on the AIs and their dealings the most. Read Consider Phlebas before Look to Windward and Use of Weapons before Surface Detail, but otherwise they're all standalone books set in the same world (and even in those cases, the connections are really loose). Pretty much every Culture fan I know recommends The Player of Games as the first book to read, because 99% of people who read any of the others first will not read a second. The Culture is basically porn escalation for Trekkies, so unless you feel you would enjoy multiple novels of the GUA I'm Not As Clever As I Think I Am being right at people you should avoid it.
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Feb 18, 2015 09:19
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Stupid_Sexy_Flander posted:That was the last 2? books of the Rigante series. Ravenheart and Stormrider I think. Thanks! No Pants posted:They called the GCU Grey Area that because it liked to read humans' minds without their consent. That was the most recent one I read. I can't remember anything about anything most of the time. Jedit posted:Pretty much every Culture fan I know recommends The Player of Games as the first book to read, because 99% of people who read any of the others first will not read a second. The Culture is basically porn escalation for Trekkies, so unless you feel you would enjoy multiple novels of the GUA I'm Not As Clever As I Think I Am being right at people you should avoid it. A good counterpost. Unrelated: is your Av a Kzin?
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Feb 18, 2015 10:09
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I just finished Europe in Autumn yesterday, which was an amazing spy novel with a sci-fi twist at the very end. It takes place in the near future in a (not dystopian) Europe that was hit hard by the financial crisis, resulting in the almost complete breakup of the EU and the formation of dozens of micro-states; for instance, a trans-European railway that's its own nation and the attempt of an Estonian national park to declare independence are both major parts of the plot. Because there are so many nations, and because relationships between them are at times terrible, it can be incredibly difficult to cross borders or even send mail to a family member in a neighboring country. The main character, an Estonian chef named Rudi working in Poland, gets recruited by the Coureurs, a secretive organization that is idealistically opposed to the restraint of movement and information and whose operatives move packages and people between nations. Rudi gets recruited initially because his nationality allows him to get into a country that Poles can't, and although he thinks that the Coureurs' methods are needlessly obtuse and too influenced by 1950s spy novels, he slowly moves up in the organization. A few of his "Situations" go wrong, though, and he eventually finds himself on the run from Coureur central and German intelligence. The novel was surprisingly funny (particularly Rudi's feelings about the needless complexity of working as a Coureur), exciting, and if not for the completely unexpected sci-fi twist would have been one of my favorite self-contained novels. As it stands, though, there will probably be a sequel or a sidequel, which definitely isn't the worst thing in the world. I highly recommend it.
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Feb 18, 2015 11:14
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PopetasticPerson posted:
The Culture books are very much about the problems and hypocrisies that you face while trying to live fairly and justly - what makes them so good is that, as mentioned, they aren't polemics. They put all the warts and beauty of the Culture in front of you and let it speak for itself. People always push Player of Games as the first book. A lot of the juicy stuff comes from the contrast between the hedonistic hippy side of the Culture, and their imperialist meddling side. Player has the protagonist moving from the one to the other and back, which is why it's held up as an introduction. But aside from that, there's nothing in it to recommend it over the rest of the series. All its themes and ideas are better explored in Excession and Use of Weapons. You could make an argument that they work better once you have an understanding of how the Culture works (Weapons sorely needs a chapter near the start to see how normal Culture citizens live, and if it had that I'd say it's one of the best novels I've ever read) but they stand head and shoulders above the rest of the series. Excession works just fine as in introduction to the Culture, dive in there and follow it up with Use of Weapons. If you love the world then read the rest. But those two make a great little duology, dissecting the actions and morals of the Culture from opposite ends of the spectrum.
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Feb 18, 2015 11:19
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Strom Cuzewon posted:People always push Player of Games as the first book. A lot of the juicy stuff comes from the contrast between the hedonistic hippy side of the Culture, and their imperialist meddling side. Player has the protagonist moving from the one to the other and back, which is why it's held up as an introduction. It's held up as an introduction, because if you follow the publishing order, as most people might want to, the first book isn't that great and also because PoG is the most conventional book in the series, storytelling-wise.
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Feb 18, 2015 11:24
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Slavvy posted:Unrelated: is your Av a Kzin? No. It's not a Kilrathi either. It's the character my handle comes from.
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Feb 18, 2015 11:49
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Amazon picked up "The Man in the High Castle" for a full season order: http://m.hitfix.com/the-dartboard/amazon-orders-mad-dogs-man-in-the-high-castle-to-series-renews-mozart I'd guess that means we're maybe a year or so from the whole thing being available.
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Feb 18, 2015 16:38
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Cardiac posted:There is also Neal Asher, which have a more morally ambiguous universe than Banks, but with a similar theme i.e. AIs rule everything. The Culture novels are full of moral ambiguity. They just doesn't hammer the reader over the head with it or assume that a lack of external moral pressure will always drive people to choose selfishly. Christ, your point of view character in Use of Weapons GIANT loving SPOILER DONT READ THISturned his childhood love into a chair and sent it to her brother to drive him crazy and win a war  .
Kalenn Istarion fucked around with this message at 22:59 on Feb 18, 2015 |
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Feb 18, 2015 19:33
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Hey don't mouse over that spoiler like, ever, if you plan to ever read Use of Weapons. Signed, someone who's read Use of Weapons. There are spoilers and there are spoilers.
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Feb 18, 2015 19:37
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Jedit posted:No. It's not a Kilrathi either. It's the character my handle comes from. It's Jedit Ojanen of Efrava from planar chaos mtg.
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Feb 18, 2015 19:39
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General Battuta posted:One of the Culture's strengths is that it isn't a polemic. Banks presents a world and trusts you to decide whether you want to be horrified or inspired by it - and trusts that you'll appreciate the craft either way. I am both horrified and inspired by it, which I'm pretty sure is the intended effect.
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Feb 18, 2015 19:39
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Antti posted:Hey don't mouse over that spoiler like, ever, if you plan to ever read Use of Weapons. Yeah, Kalenn, edit it out. Not cool, yo.
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Feb 18, 2015 19:53
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Megazver posted:Yeah, Kalenn, edit it out. Not cool, yo. It's a spoiler tag just don't look at it if you don't want to be spoiled
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Feb 18, 2015 20:29
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Yeah, if you're someone who has a tendency to look at spoilers for poo poo you haven't read/seen, that's your problem, not the person who posted it. edit; as someone who has not read any of the Culture books but would like to, is there any sort of preferred order I would want to go in or is it fine to go along simply by publication date? Cpt. Mahatma Gandhi fucked around with this message at 20:40 on Feb 18, 2015 |
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Feb 18, 2015 20:37
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SquadronROE posted:I once read that Snow Crash was supposed to be a graphic novel. In that light the imagery in the book is much more interesting. I recently read Mirrorshades, edited by Bruce Sterling, which I got at a used bookstore a few months ago. It was a quick read. I think the story "Freezone" might be the most cyberpunk thing I've ever read.
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Feb 18, 2015 20:37
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Cpt. Mahatma Gandhi posted:Yeah, if you're someone who has a tendency to look at spoilers for poo poo you haven't read/seen, that's your problem, not the person who posted it. Publication order is fine, but Consider Phlebas is a kinda weak compared to the rest. I'd personally go: Player of Games/Use of Weapons (either order) Excession Look to Windward Go hog wild. Which is almost publication order. Note that this does front load the best of the books, and that the rest will probably seem weaker by comparison, but if you're looking to get into the series, why not read the best ones? I started with Matter, which was a weird introduction to the series, to say the least, and actually turned me off from the series for a while until I figured out what the hell the book was doing.
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Feb 18, 2015 20:59
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Use of Weapons is extremely good poo poo but it's also structurally insane. If you want to start with a more level-headed, beginning-to-end novel, definitely go with Player of Games.
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Feb 18, 2015 21:08
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drat it, why does libertarian milSF have to be so libertarian? Because some of it can actually be drat fun if you can get past (or ignore) the "durr hurr progressives/bureaucrats/media" crap.
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Feb 18, 2015 21:30
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The new Humble Bundle is loving amazing. The Barry Hughart omnibus, short story collections by Harlan Ellison, Jack Vance and KJ Parker, the Ted Chiang novella? These are just the ones I've read and just these already make it a great bargain. If at least a couple more out of the other ten books in the bundle are good? If you don't want to buy this at $15 you basically don't deserve to be called a specfic fan.
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Feb 18, 2015 22:16
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Mars4523 posted:drat it, why does libertarian milSF have to be so libertarian? Because some of it can actually be drat fun if you can get past (or ignore) the "durr hurr progressives/bureaucrats/media" crap. Hell is other readers.
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Feb 18, 2015 22:29
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PopetasticPerson posted:I'm looking for something similar to Stanislaw Lem's Solaris. The idea of attempting to communicate with an alien that is actually alien seems to be pretty rare in SF. The alien is alien to the point that no one can agree if it is even an alien, much less communicate with it. I love that, I love the haunted house feel of the station, and the themes of claustrophobia and insanity. The characters are very well done as well. There's a real haunting and melancholy tone throughout the book that is just beautiful. Even the exposition chapters, full of made-up words for made-up concepts, manage to pull me in. It's fantastic. If you haven't read it, or if you have read it for that matter, get the audiobook. It's narrated by Lt. Gaeta in Battlestar Galactica and he does a really wonderful job. Perhaps the Strugatsky brothers' Roadside Picnic might be up your alley. No actual alien contact, but it deals with trying to figure out what aliens left behind during a brief visit to Earth. It's got a lot of what you're looking for.
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Feb 18, 2015 22:33
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Mars4523 posted:drat it, why does libertarian milSF have to be so libertarian? Because some of it can actually be drat fun if you can get past (or ignore) the "durr hurr progressives/bureaucrats/media" crap. Old Man's War and the Vorkosigan Saga are pretty good at mucking around with that. In the former, for instance, the necessarily evil government of benevolent fascists are giant fuckups who are putting humanity in far more danger than they're protecting it from, and the last book of the initial trilogy involves the main character teaming up with the aliens and sticking it to them good.
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Feb 18, 2015 23:02
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Antti posted:Hey don't mouse over that spoiler like, ever, if you plan to ever read Use of Weapons. I edited my post to hopefully make that less likely Megazver posted:Yeah, Kalenn, edit it out. Not cool, yo. Sorry, not my fault that people can't keep from looking in the box marked don't open til Christmas. I did edit my post just now to make it more obvious that it's a big one.
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Feb 18, 2015 23:23
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Kalenn Istarion posted:Sorry, not my fault that people can't keep from looking in the box marked don't open til Christmas. I did edit my post just now to make it more obvious that it's a big one. No one did, probably. (I read it years ago.) Still, it's kind of a Tsar Bomba of a spoiler.
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Feb 18, 2015 23:32
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