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For real though this man is like one leaked transcript away from inserting space aliens with lazer rifles
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Feb 17, 2015 23:01
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i thought malazan was unreadable from the start i get what the dude was going for but ppl throwing your books in the garbage is the risk you run making your books obtuse and inaccessible on purpose got was kinda like the gunslinger with the big sweeping symbolism and pulp violence and little antifables a legit fun read imo
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Feb 17, 2015 23:10
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fanged wang posted:i thought malazan was unreadable from the start i get what the dude was going for but ppl throwing your books in the garbage is the risk you run making your books obtuse and inaccessible on purpose It doesn't help that the first Malazan book was written ten years earlier and isn't written as well as the following books in terms of getting the story across. It's not a hard series to get into if you just let events happen as they do. I read GOT before Malazan and while I like Erikson's series better (largely because it's actually resolved), the first three books of ASOIAF are excellent at telling a surprising and engaging story. With that said I think the best book in both series' is the third (Storm of Swords and Memories of Ice) for completely different reasons. Martin is a better visceral storyteller and he tells a more focused story, in part because his chapters are limited to just one character's point of view. Erikson is a better scene-setter and he knows how to put in a ton of cool poo poo into every page. Storm of Swords has the Red Wedding which is awesome; Memories of Ice has a siege in which a squad of rooftop defenders killed so many guys that the building they're standing on is literally sagging down from the weight of all the corpses packed into it which is awesome for an entirely different reason. They're both genre standouts and I would be hard-pressed to rank one over the other.
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Feb 17, 2015 23:43
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Take it to the Erikson thread. If you took an excerpt of both series to a legit writing group/class, the GRRM one would get politely laughed at before critiquing, the Steve one would be told to revise for human comprehension and not come back until it did. (Though I did read Gardens before AGoT, and made it to book 5 until I realized 'Oh Christ, this dude is awful')
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Feb 18, 2015 00:38
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Mike N Eich posted:The show has already killed off a character still alive in the books, like, uh.. fan favorite Jojen Reed. I'm pretty sure Jojen died in the books, but it was off-screen. Anonymous Zebra posted:Steven Erikson is the fantasy author I always bring up when dropping a deuce on GRRM. The guy wrote ten (10!!!) books in twelve years, and five of those books were between the release of AffC and ADwD. Each of the books is as long and as complex as the ASoIaF books, and there is no drop in quality between them (if you like his writing, then you like all ten of the books). And despite telling a long-rear end story, each of the books had it's own plot with its own climax and conclusions. Even more funny, is that Erikson is still writing new stuff. Remember that big world building book they just released for GRRM's books? Remember how cool all those little blurbs were, but how there is no chance the fucker will ever write about those strange far away lands? Erikson is doing that. He is following up on all those neat world-building threads from his books, and is writing entirely new stories set in the same vibrant world. It's loving cool. Pretty sure Raymond Fiest's time to write the entire Riftwar series will be shorter than the time GURM takes for ASOIAF. Riftwar books are shorter (and have some issues, namely most things related to the Dread and Valheru) but the original trilogy and most of Serpentwar as just as good as ASOIAF, and rarely is it as bad as AFFC. I found myself more interested in the political stuff in the later riftwar books than the magic stuff with Pug and the other Mary Sues. I'd be all for him going back and writing a book about the Upright Man coming to power and the formation of the Mockers. Ex-Priest Tobin posted:Malazan Book of the Fallen is nowhere near the quality of the first three ASOIAF books though, to be fair. That's the series where the books are written out of chronological order and so book 3 might happen before book 2 did but through different POVs and such right? I remember tossing the first book aside and reading the Cycle of Arawn since it was $0.99 on iTunes, and then read some Demonsouled books, which were kinda interesting in the premise but samey, then finally got around to Mistborn and now Farseer. The worst part about Mistborn is that when I moved on to Alloy of Law I thought that the page count in my iPad was an error, then realized that no, it really was about 1/3 the length of the other Sanderson books I read but still cost a similar amount. 
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Feb 18, 2015 03:50
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Malazan is great if you're ok with reading the full summary of someone's D&D campaign, which I admittedly am, but it really doesn't engage as well as ASOIAF simply because you're laughing at all the D&D as gently caress names. Tattersail. Silverfox. WHISKEYJACK. and then all the magic dimension names are weirder but at least sort of cool. ASOIAF doesn't throw so much fantastical poo poo at you that you're reeling after one chapter, it does that well enough.
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Feb 18, 2015 07:29
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fanged wang posted:i thought malazan was unreadable from the start i get what the dude was going for but ppl throwing your books in the garbage is the risk you run making your books obtuse and inaccessible on purpose Funny thing, I found GoT unreadable from the start. And then second and third book was OK (well the Tyrion chapters), and then I waited, read an awful book, and then I waited, read an awful book, and then I waited. Oh, crap, I am still waiting, aren't I?
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Feb 18, 2015 07:35
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It took me several hundred pages and a few weeks of fighting boredom to really get into GoT originally, but once it got good for me, it stayed good (finished the remaining 500 or whatever in two days) through SoS. GotM, while rougher in its technical aspects, hooked me from the beginning with the world and storylines, and there was never a point in the series where I found myself as bored as I did over the first third to half of GoT. It may be nerdy as hell that the series is based on a D&D type campaign, but it led to a remarkably fleshed out world and completed (and incredible) stories.
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Feb 18, 2015 08:57
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So...why WAS Robert so goddamn obsessed with Lyanna when he clearly didn't really know the woman and despite being so in love refused to stop drinking and whoring? Was it a wholly possessive "I'm a young lord and I get whatever I want" and when he finally wanted something beyond a shallow reason another man went and told him he sucked and he could never have it? Is Robert's whole adult life just one big sulking temper tantrum?
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Feb 18, 2015 10:28
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Cornwind Evil posted:So...why WAS Robert so goddamn obsessed with Lyanna when he clearly didn't really know the woman and despite being so in love refused to stop drinking and whoring? Was it a wholly possessive "I'm a young lord and I get whatever I want" and when he finally wanted something beyond a shallow reason another man went and told him he sucked and he could never have it? Is Robert's whole adult life just one big sulking temper tantrum? You have never been obsessed with a girl in school for example that goes beyond anything what can be considered rational or healthy?
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Feb 18, 2015 11:20
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OhYeah posted:You have never been obsessed with a girl in school for example that goes beyond anything what can be considered rational or healthy? Well, no, but even if I attempt to conceptualize like that would be, I would think that part of that obsession would be to STOP SLEEPING WITH OTHER WOMEN BECAUSE YOU GIVE THEM MONEY. Robert's behavior is really baffling. It's one thing if he deeply cared for Lyanna, loss is loss, but the way he acts is more like they had a great love story instead of him barely knowing her and refusing to even try and change his ways for the sake of his feelings/their relationship.
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Feb 18, 2015 11:39
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In the end I think that's the story he chooses to tell himself, one that falls apart under the slightest of scrutiny. Seems to me that he wanted Lyanna so he and Ned would be bound by blood; Ned being the brother Robert always wanted.
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Feb 18, 2015 12:29
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Cornwind Evil posted:So...why WAS Robert so goddamn obsessed with Lyanna when he clearly didn't really know the woman and despite being so in love refused to stop drinking and whoring? Was it a wholly possessive "I'm a young lord and I get whatever I want" and when he finally wanted something beyond a shallow reason another man went and told him he sucked and he could never have it? Is Robert's whole adult life just one big sulking temper tantrum? He was a teenager and an orphan when he became infatuated with Lyanna. Likely all he knew of Lyanna were stories from Ned, and maybe meeting her a few times at high society events but she was basically his 'little red-haired girl' that would have made his life perfect in a hormone-addled melodramatic way only a teen could think up. Before his hopes can be crushed by the mundane reality of life, they were sent up in flames by the horrible reality of war. He justifies the entire conflict as an epic battle of two great men (Rhaegar and Himself) fighting for the love of a woman and the fate of a continent. When she's lost to him the entire throne is a hollow victory, and from that point on the only women in his life are high born girls playing the game (or just obeying their parents that were), whores, or just girls who want to be able to tell their friends they hosed a king. So because he never learned the 'boring' way that there is no such thing as a 'perfect' woman he's convinced himself that he already had and lost her. Robert is every bit as sentimental and blind to the world as Sansa was at the very start, he just believes in raunchier songs 420 Gank Mid fucked around with this message at 13:17 on Feb 18, 2015 |
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Feb 18, 2015 13:15
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420 Gank Mid posted:He was a teenager and an orphan when he became infatuated with Lyanna. Likely all he knew of Lyanna were stories from Ned, and maybe meeting her a few times at high society events but she was basically his 'little red-haired girl' that would have made his life perfect in a hormone-addled melodramatic way only a teen could think up. It's sad this entire post puts things into perspective better than GRRM did in the books. I always felt Robert was the hero throwing down the evil Targaryens with Lyanna as a side note. At least that is the story GRRN spun.
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Feb 18, 2015 14:43
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Yeah the real lovely thing is that the clues are there, but having to wait years between books means you won't ever connect the dots (unless you reread them all).
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Feb 18, 2015 15:05
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everyone knows the ending reveal will be that its ALL Bran's coma dream after being pushed out the window.
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Feb 18, 2015 18:44
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TommyGun85 posted:everyone knows the ending reveal will be that its ALL Bran's coma dream after being pushed out the window. "It was all just a dream! I can walk! I can walk!" *surges out of bed; collapses on non-working legs*
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Feb 18, 2015 19:18
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Habibi posted:"It was all just a dream! I can walk! I can walk!" The long wait times will be worth it if that is the pay off.
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Feb 18, 2015 19:21
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TommyGun85 posted:everyone knows the ending reveal will be that its ALL Bran's coma dream after being pushed out the window. Bran was Tommy Westphall the whole time.
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Feb 18, 2015 20:02
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Hunky Joe posted:It's sad this entire post puts things into perspective better than GRRM did in the books. I always felt Robert was the hero throwing down the evil Targaryens with Lyanna as a side note. At least that is the story GRRN spun. I think he does a pretty good job through the books of letting the reader know that Robert was full of poo poo. It really becomes clear by the 5th book when there are multiple characters talking about how great of a guy Rhaegar was. Including one that is full on in love with the memory of Rhaegar. That's actually one of my favorite parts of the series. That GRRM doesn't have a character out and out state that Robert's recollection of events is totally wrong, but the clues are there that Robert was actually one of the villains in that conflict, along with the mad king.
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Feb 18, 2015 20:09
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Robert isn't a villain in the conflict unless you are high. He is a prick but nothing he does involving the War itself is really wrong.
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Feb 18, 2015 20:19
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CharlestheHammer posted:Robert isn't a villian in the conflict unless you are high. Yea, poor choice of words on my part. But he's definitely not a hero in that war and Lyanna was definitely not taken by force. It seems that everyone but him understands that.
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Feb 18, 2015 20:20
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Robert Baratheon Did Nothing Wrong
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Feb 18, 2015 20:35
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Gravybong posted:Malazan is great if you're ok with reading the full summary of someone's D&D campaign, which I admittedly am, but it really doesn't engage as well as ASOIAF simply because you're laughing at all the D&D as gently caress names. Yeah, this. I quit about halfway through the first book cause I had no idea what was going on and I was irritated at the D&D poo poo like the elven raven lord called Darkmoon Silverstalk who was sieging a magic floating fortress or whatever the gently caress that was. Elman fucked around with this message at 01:14 on Feb 19, 2015 |
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Feb 18, 2015 23:45
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I never had a very good grasp of magic or the magic dimensions in Malazan but the 2nd and 3rd books were still excellent. Books 4 and 5 were pretty good too iirc. I got burnt out after reading 5 or 6 and is been so long that trying to get back in would require a reread and that will never happen.
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Feb 18, 2015 23:55
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420 Gank Mid posted:
Renley believed in Beyonce songs.
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Feb 19, 2015 00:54
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All my single laddies, All my single laddies (•_•) <) )╯ / \ ( •_•) \( (> / \ (•_•) <) )╯ / \
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Feb 19, 2015 00:57
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I just found out that Ferb is voiced by the actor who plays Jojen reed. I'm not sure how to process this.
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Feb 19, 2015 01:10
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CharlestheHammer posted:Robert isn't a villain in the conflict unless you are high. Ned's a lesser villain though, as there's too much poo poo that points to him knowing his sister doesn't care about Robert like he does for her, and when the war ended he could've taken the throne but didn't and left his now emotionally wrecked friend on the seat so he could gently caress off back to Nebraskaros.
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Feb 19, 2015 01:34
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As Ned's motivations for the war go, there's also that thing about his dad and brother being brutally murdered.
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Feb 19, 2015 01:41
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None of that sounds the least bit villainous. Maybe a bit lazy, but my main man Ned lasted about 2 seconds dicking around with KL politics and Robert had it running fairly smooth as you could expect for years so it was pretty smart too.
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Feb 19, 2015 01:43
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And Ned trying to take the throne could've just splintered the rebellion and prolonged the war.
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Feb 19, 2015 01:45
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Evil Fluffy posted:Ned's a lesser villain though, as there's too much poo poo that points to him knowing his sister doesn't care about Robert like he does for her, and when the war ended he could've taken the throne but didn't and left his now emotionally wrecked friend on the seat so he could gently caress off back to Nebraskaros. Nah, Ned wanted his sister back since as far as he knew she was kidnapped. Hell I still think that is a possible, and I don't particularly put weight into the opinions of people who weren't there but loved old R. I mean yeah forcing his sister into marriage against her will is lovely, but doesn't have much to do with the war.
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Feb 19, 2015 01:51
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Hunky Joe posted:It's sad this entire post puts things into perspective better than GRRM did in the books. I always felt Robert was the hero throwing down the evil Targaryens with Lyanna as a side note. At least that is the story GRRN spun. To be fair to the absolute fucker, this is where his writing is the strongest. When he can lead you down the well lit and obvious fantasy pathway only for you to retrace your steps later and lift the veil to see his world and the characters in it for what they are. Not monsters or heroes, but people.
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Feb 19, 2015 02:26
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threeagainstfour posted:Yea, poor choice of words on my part. But he's definitely not a hero in that war and Lyanna was definitely not taken by force. It seems that everyone but him understands that. Actually most people in Westeros probably think Rhaegar did kidnap Lyanna, since Rhaegar was already married and Lyanna was already betrothed to Robert. People went crazy when Rhaegar crowned Lyanna at the Harrenhal Tourney (because married dudes aren't supposed to crown other women Queens of Love and Beauty), Rhaegar totally hosed up when he left his wife and kids to go run off with Lyanna, and no amount of Robert being blinded by adolescent idealized love can change that a Crown Prince does not loving run off with the daughter of a High Lord and disappear for months on end. Don't forget Rheagar didn't show up til right before the Battle of the Trident, which is about half to 2/3rds of the way through the war. The very least he could have brought her to King's Landing and said "Yoh so I'm marrying this bitch as my second wife, just like Aegon the Conqueror, deal with it". Instead he allows the entire realm to explode into chaos and only shows up again in order to get murdered. Furthermore, Aerys started the whole conflict with murdering Ned's father and brother on essentially trumped-up charges, and THEN demanding Jon hand over two innocent heirs so he could do the same to them. The Targaryens are guilty of kidnapping and murdering, Robert and Ned are guilty of... being somewhat naive? Yeah, Targaryen dynasty still hosed up majorly and if there has to be a bad guy during Robert's Rebellion, it's them. Really, Rhaegar and Lyanna should've known their decisions would have real bad consequences.
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Feb 19, 2015 03:42
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Yeah, pretty much. It's been shown too in the books that Rhaegar had his head up his rear end about fulfilling prophecy(and having a baby with Lyanna would've filled part of one of these), so there could have still been some kidnapping of Lyanna going on if she was more sensible than him about consequences.
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Feb 19, 2015 04:02
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Evil Fluffy posted:Ned's a lesser villain though, as there's too much poo poo that points to him knowing his sister doesn't care about Robert like he does for her, and when the war ended he could've taken the throne but didn't and left his now emotionally wrecked friend on the seat so he could gently caress off back to Nebraskaros. Absolutely no one realistically thinks that Ned could have ended up king after the Rebellion. I think the only person who even mentions it is Cersei. Robert at least had a Targaryean grandmother to give his reign a fig leaf of legitimacy.
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Feb 19, 2015 04:37
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Potooweet posted:Absolutely no one realistically thinks that Ned could have ended up king after the Rebellion. I think the only person who even mentions it is Cersei. Robert at least had a Targaryean grandmother to give his reign a fig leaf of legitimacy. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think the only person who thought Ned might have taken over was Jaime, and I think that was just him recounting events from his PTSD haze after he killed Aerys and the "let Robert be king of the ashes" messengers to the Pyromancers. And even then I think he was just confounded that Ned ordered him off the Iron Throne and then actually stood around in the throne room and waited for Robert and Tywin to arrive rather than sit on it himself. Though it's ultimately just another example of Jaime being Jaime, not thinking things through to their end and being really dumb at politics (his prowess as a warrior and ability to manipulate people notwithstanding).
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Feb 19, 2015 04:49
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Considering his frequent flashbacks and the way he does everything to try and evade starting another war, there's a good case to be made that Ned suffers from PTSD.
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Feb 19, 2015 14:08
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Crazy Joe Wilson posted:Actually most people in Westeros probably think Rhaegar did kidnap Lyanna, since Rhaegar was already married and Lyanna was already betrothed to Robert. People went crazy when Rhaegar crowned Lyanna at the Harrenhal Tourney (because married dudes aren't supposed to crown other women Queens of Love and Beauty), Rhaegar totally hosed up when he left his wife and kids to go run off with Lyanna, and no amount of Robert being blinded by adolescent idealized love can change that a Crown Prince does not loving run off with the daughter of a High Lord and disappear for months on end. Don't forget Rheagar didn't show up til right before the Battle of the Trident, which is about half to 2/3rds of the way through the war. The very least he could have brought her to King's Landing and said "Yoh so I'm marrying this bitch as my second wife, just like Aegon the Conqueror, deal with it". Instead he allows the entire realm to explode into chaos and only shows up again in order to get murdered. GRRM basically ripped of the story to The Illiad and the Trojan War. Moral of the story is: if a dumbass prince and a stupid married highborn woman decide to elope together, poo poo will go down. Rhae and Lyanna are 100% responsible for what occured.
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Feb 19, 2015 18:46
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