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Well as a general rule of thumb for future anthropomorphic morality tales: don't cast specific races as pigs, rats, or snakes unless you want them to be all evil.
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Feb 18, 2015 17:28
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Pigs aren't evil.
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Feb 18, 2015 17:38
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Tell it to Orwell.
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Feb 18, 2015 17:39
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Aphrodite posted:Pigs aren't evil. Rats have been heroes in stories too (Narnia, Wind in the Willows, Rats of NIMH, etc) , but if you say "You're a pig / rat / snake" to someone it's unlikely to be taken as a compliment.
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Feb 18, 2015 17:42
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Reepicheep is a mouse, thank you very much.
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Feb 18, 2015 18:13
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Oops. E: Splinter, I guess.
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Feb 18, 2015 18:21
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Rizzo from The Muppets Remy from Ratatouille Templeton from Charlotte's Web And, ... I think I'm out. But that's enough examples to make a case for not all rats being evil.
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Feb 18, 2015 18:28
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Inkspot posted:Rizzo from The Muppets The singing mice from the Babe movies! The mice from Cinderella! Uhh...that's all I got!
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Feb 18, 2015 18:32
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All mice! We're looking for rats. E: I feel like there must have been at least one heroic rat in all those Redwall books, ...
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Feb 18, 2015 18:40
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Inkspot posted:All mice! We're looking for rats.
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Feb 18, 2015 18:41
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I was mostly appalled at that they either a) didn't read the book and based it on hearsay or b) read the book and completely missed the loving point and now it isn't taught in the school. But in both situations they just banned it in secret and I guarantee you that students and/or parents would have an objection to it. This is a very big school with lots of students from pretty much the whole gambit of socio-economic backgrounds and it cost the school a lot of money that could have gone to other things. just it's super lovely and sad
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Feb 18, 2015 19:16
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Inkspot posted:All mice! We're looking for rats.
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Feb 18, 2015 19:22
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Inkspot posted:E: I feel like there must have been at least one heroic rat in all those Redwall books, ... There is, if I recall correctly, exactly one in The Pearls of Lutra.
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Feb 18, 2015 20:18
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CapnAndy posted:There was a heroic cat or two but by and large the Redwall books are kinda super racist. Wouldn't it be speciesist? Or are the critters in Redwall intended as direct parallels to real world ethnic groups? Serious question, I have not read any Redwall books.
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Feb 18, 2015 20:38
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There's definitely something weird going on with regards to species in Redwall. I think all the 'good' critters are meant to be analogues for varying parts of the British isles...? There's goofy accents on the hares and badgers. And the moles are ... Welsh, maybe? There's also a ferret that gets raised by the good guys but then turns out evil anyway because it's ~his nature.~ I remember being pretty pissed off at that when I was a kid reading it. Now I want to see if anyone's done a more in depth analysis of the series' racial politics or whatever; I haven't read 'em since I was twelve or so at the outside. It definitely feels awkward just remembering it though. Having some (sentient) species Just Be Evil is always a bit off.
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Feb 18, 2015 21:49
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A Tin Of Beans posted:Having some (sentient) species Just Be Evil is always a bit off. Yup. "Good races and bad races" is an inherently racist premise regardless of intent. Even Tolkien regretted making all orcs in The Lord of the Rings bad guys.
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Feb 18, 2015 22:02
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Tolkien at least had the excuse that the inherently bad races were Ents, Elves, and Men who'd been twisted and corrupted beyond all measure by Sauron. It's a figleaf, but it's better than the races always being evil just because that's how those people are.
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Feb 18, 2015 22:27
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Ghostlight posted:The worst of this was in Incredible Hulk where 90s cool dude Rick Jones loses his girlfriend and hogs an entire comic just for his many adventures visiting Doctor Strange and the Fantastic Four to have emotional breakdowns at their houses begging for them to help him bring her back from the dead because they've come back from the dead. I think it was even worse in Keith Giffen's Booster Gold when he went the opposite direction, going all, "I want Ted Kord back but this isn't some comic book where people come back to life at the drop of a hat! This is real!" It was even dumber because Johns specifically ended his run by having Ted Kord secretly alive, only for it to later be revealed by another writer as an older Booster Gold.
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Feb 19, 2015 00:18
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A Tin Of Beans posted:There's definitely something weird going on with regards to species in Redwall. I think all the 'good' critters are meant to be analogues for varying parts of the British isles...? There's goofy accents on the hares and badgers. And the moles are ... Welsh, maybe? I think the oft-repeated story is that the "vermin" in Redwall are meant to be the animals who cause the most trouble for English farmers (rats, foxes, weasels and so on), but that falls down because I'm fairly sure farmers have more problems caused by hares, moles, mice, badgers and so on (i.e. Redwall's "goodbeats"). First thing I ever saw on SA was the "From the desk of Brian Jacques" article. 
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Feb 19, 2015 00:20
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DnD 4e kind of had a thing where the races' "default" nature was mostly influenced by their creator/patron deities. Minotaurs used to be chill but then Baphomet turned into a demon and now they're mostly assholes and the good ones still struggle with the darkness within. I think that's elegant enough when it comes to racial "alignments". I think it's interesting that no one has a problem with demons being evil by nature, but orcs make everyone kind of sweat and mumble about how it's probably not great.
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Feb 19, 2015 00:34
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There are lots of cool, friendly demons in popular culture. The closest thing to a cool, friendly orc that has any kind of widespread notoriety is Shrek.
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Feb 19, 2015 00:39
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Inkspot posted:There are lots of cool, friendly demons in popular culture. The closest thing to a cool, friendly orc that has any kind of widespread notoriety is Shrek. Well, sure, but there's way way more stories where all demons are pure evil, and no one ever came out of it going "I think they should have had a good demon in the story to balance it out." Good/neutral orcs and half-orcs are fairly common tropes in the various bad fantasy novels and comics that exist. Just cuz they're not in Tolkien doesn't mean they're not anywhere. I think almost every single tabletop with orcs lets you play as an orc.
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Feb 19, 2015 00:42
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Differently-moralled orcs do exist. For sure. But would you call "various bad fantasy novels and comics" or tabletop games widespread popular culture? I'm guessing the biggest exposure orcs have is in fantasy movies and the odd TV show or cartoon, where they're usually just evil mooks.
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Feb 19, 2015 00:51
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Wait, why are we talking about public consciousness? I thought we were talking about races being all bad in specific works. Also I'm pretty sure Dungeons and Dragons and World of Warcraft are pretty loving mainstream.
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Feb 19, 2015 00:54
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Demons in settings where they are pure evil are usually either constructs literally made of evil or angels that chose to fall. Orcs and goblins are often just another race in the setting, who set up cities or tribes or whatever and have families and all that junk, so it's weird when they all just happen to be evil.
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Feb 19, 2015 00:55
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Inkspot posted:There are lots of cool, friendly demons in popular culture. The closest thing to a cool, friendly orc that has any kind of widespread notoriety is Shrek. Shrek is an ogre.
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Feb 19, 2015 01:05
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Warcaft has a bunch of friendly good orcs, but they are also portrayed as noble savages.
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Feb 19, 2015 01:09
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IIRC Warcraft's orcs were similar to Tolkien in that they were corrupted by outside sources, ie demons.
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Feb 19, 2015 01:21
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muscles like this? posted:IIRC Warcraft's orcs were similar to Tolkien in that they were corrupted by outside sources, ie demons. The current expac seems basically designed to say nope, turns out they're just dicks.
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Feb 19, 2015 01:31
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WickedHate posted:Demons in settings where they are pure evil are usually either constructs literally made of evil or angels that chose to fall. Orcs and goblins are often just another race in the setting, who set up cities or tribes or whatever and have families and all that junk, so it's weird when they all just happen to be evil. But aren't Tolkien orcs an example of the former?
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Feb 19, 2015 01:57
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Zachack posted:But aren't Tolkien orcs an example of the former? They are corrupted elves or in the case of the elites entirely artificial, yes. I can't remember if that was in the books or came later in letters and notes, but either way he still regretted it anyway.
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Feb 19, 2015 02:22
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It's in the Silmarillion. They aren't constructs (as in Middle-Earth evil cannot create) or angels that chose to fall (because these are Sauron and Balrog-level entities), either way - they are a soldier race that was bred out of corrupted elves in the distant past. It's hard to say if they're just evil by nature because within the world they only exist around and in the service of a volcanic locus of pure evil.
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Feb 19, 2015 02:33
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Man a lot of comics came out this week and two of them were Loki and Multiversity. I think I need a hug.
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Feb 19, 2015 03:27
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CapnAndy posted:Man a lot of comics came out this week and two of them were Loki and Multiversity. This week broke my wallet.
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Feb 19, 2015 04:49
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Madkal posted:And talking of Blankets, Habibi is another awesome comic book that should be recommended. I would recommend anyone who is thinking of reading Habibi because they liked Blankets to maybe not do that. Habibi felt like this giant misfire to me, and it wouldn't have been nearly as big of a deal if it didn't feel just a bit racist and if Thompson hadn't spent six goddamn years of his life producing it. Unlike Blankets, Habibi went through a "proper" book publisher, yet I'm pretty sure they never had an editor for Thompson other than to ensure he hit his deadlines. It's a very pretty book, but it drags at parts. For those curious, check it out from a library or borrow it from a friend, but don't expect anything like Blankets in quality or execution.
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Feb 19, 2015 10:02
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bairfanx posted:I would recommend anyone who is thinking of reading Habibi because they liked Blankets to maybe not do that. Habibi felt like this giant misfire to me, and it wouldn't have been nearly as big of a deal if it didn't feel just a bit racist and if Thompson hadn't spent six goddamn years of his life producing it. Unlike Blankets, Habibi went through a "proper" book publisher, yet I'm pretty sure they never had an editor for Thompson other than to ensure he hit his deadlines. It's a very pretty book, but it drags at parts. For those curious, check it out from a library or borrow it from a friend, but don't expect anything like Blankets in quality or execution. Agreed. Habibi was a beautifully drawn failure. I had to put it down; the story was just so unsettling. It's worth a borrow, of course, to look at the amazing Thompson art, but the plot is just so dark and so overhwelming, I couldn't bear to continue reading after a certain point.
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Feb 19, 2015 11:34
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I lost part of the post I was typing up and had to retype it, so I only did the three Transformers series for now since I felt pretty lovely that I lost about 45 minutes of work. But here's the BSS-ADTRW Comic Book crossover event thread. Hopefully the title isn't too bad, I was having a tough time thinking up something appropriate for it. http://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3701793&pagenumber=1&perpage=40#post441757495 Thanks to all who have supported and put effort towards the idea. If you've got recommendations as well, by all means post them there! And I heartily suggest giving some series in the BSS Manga Thread a try. Some, such as I Am A Hero, Monster, Nausicaa of the Valley of the Wind, One Punch Man, Yokohama Shopping Trip, Otoyomegatari, Vinland Saga, and Uwagaki are some of the best examples of manga I've ever read. Captain Invictus fucked around with this message at 14:09 on Feb 19, 2015 |
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Feb 19, 2015 14:05
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A Tin Of Beans posted:There's definitely something weird going on with regards to species in Redwall. I think all the 'good' critters are meant to be analogues for varying parts of the British isles...? There's goofy accents on the hares and badgers. And the moles are ... Welsh, maybe? That was so not his fault. The "goodbeasts" of Redwall treated him like scum because he was a ferret and named him Veil because his past and futures were veiled and he might turn out to be evil and vile. They forced that poo poo on him.
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Feb 19, 2015 16:15
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Rogue is making "Right Hand of Doom" Red Ales to celebrate Hellboy's 21st birthday this year. You can pre-order a bottle now
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Feb 19, 2015 17:42
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Dr. Hurt posted:Rogue is making "Right Hand of Doom" Red Ales to celebrate Hellboy's 21st birthday this year. Does it come with skeletons to drink with?
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Feb 19, 2015 17:43
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