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Hello ATCs, is this a good thing yes/no http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-31109732 I'm neither a pilot nor an ATC but I'm interested in aviation so this jumped out at me this morning. NATS are talking about a new system which reduces separation distances based on wind in order to reduce delays and save money.
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Feb 6, 2015 09:52
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Less spacing is always great for ATC as long as it's safe. Because they're looking at time-based separation that actually decreases mileage between aircraft (normally rules based on time require a lot more mileage) this seems like it would help reduce delays during windy days. Kinda reminds me of rules we have in the U.S. for departures. Normally departures following Supers/Heavies/Boeing 757s have to wait 2 minutes before taking off, but this can be replaced with mileage which reduces the delay slightly. Since they're departing, the aircraft in front is faster than the one just taking off. So this seems like that kind of concept but in reverse. The Ferret King fucked around with this message at 13:11 on Feb 6, 2015 |
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Feb 6, 2015 12:55
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I'm mostly just curious how they'll be ensuring separation, since you can easily point at two targets on a radar scope and see that they're three miles apart. You can't really see time between aircraft quite as easily, and as mentioned, the wind changes as an aircraft descends, meaning that you might lose your required separation minima as the aircraft descend through uneven winds.
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Feb 6, 2015 22:44
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I'm guessing implementation of these rules requires some advanced automation functions that would dynamically calculate time separation. Hopefully it's smart enough and updates quickly enough. We have a minimum separation tool on the STARS that is difficult to trust because it jumps between values when you really need it not to. Guys, separating aircraft in real time, efficiently, by mileage takes continuous monitoring of closure rates and speeds. It can be helped with automation, but innovation in that sort of thing is slow. I expect due to liability. They've gotta make robust, redundant systems for this sort of thing. The Ferret King fucked around with this message at 01:12 on Feb 7, 2015 |
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Feb 7, 2015 01:06
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Hey guys, just thought I'd say hi, I'm an Enroute ATC in Australia, rated for 3 years now. If anyone has any questions about how we do things in straya let me know!
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Feb 8, 2015 04:26
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Shoefish posted:Hey guys, just thought I'd say hi, I'm an Enroute ATC in Australia, rated for 3 years now. If anyone has any questions about how we do things in straya let me know! How does one become an ATC in Australia?
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Feb 8, 2015 16:27
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Shoefish posted:Hey guys, just thought I'd say hi, I'm an Enroute ATC in Australia, rated for 3 years now. If anyone has any questions about how we do things in straya let me know! How does your facility structure simulator training before you start training on the floor?
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Feb 8, 2015 23:45
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First apply online here: http://careers.airservicesaustralia.com/caw/en/job/494563/air-traffic-controller-in-training-20142015-nationally If they like the look of your resume, there's an online testing session, and then an assessment day which includes interview, recap of the online stuff, some very basic separation scenarios, a group activity etc. Initial training for enroute is now about a year and a half in the college, with an initial 8 weeks of mostly classwork and tests on things like weather and such. After that it's nearly all simulator work, with modules for DTI (Directed traffic information, which from what I can tell is basically your flight service stuff?) procedural, (we have a LOT of airspace that isn't covered by radar in Australia, though we now have full ADSB coverage above F260 I believe) and radar. We only have two centers for enroute control for all of Australia, one in Melbourne one in Brisbane. After the college you'll get sent to your group where you'll have another 4-8 weeks of sector specific simulator, and then into the ops room for OJTI training for 3-4 months. All of these numbers for time taken have lots of wiggle room, my college training was only 11 months for example.
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Feb 9, 2015 01:55
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thehustler posted:Hello ATCs, is this a good thing yes/no Speaking from the opposite side of the spectrum (I fly 757/767) this works if as stated it fits in with company SOP (standard operating procedure) stabilisation/approach requirements. This is because we have a huge manual we have to follow except in emergency. In my case gear must be selected down by no later than 2000 feet AAL (above aerodrome level) and we must be fully configured, on speed, power with all checklists completed by 1000 feet AAL. The problem comes in that one of my former employers had that everything was 500 feet lower. Not a big difference but to now convert that into distance of the runway... To meet our 2000/1000 requirement (which is checked automatically off the black box and goes into Safety statistics) under the current system if told "160 to 4" we will configure at 5 miles and reduce speed there. If "170 to 5" we will do this at 6 miles. If its time based and we are slowing up 20 seconds earlier there is enormous scope for it to break down. But it gets better. They want to use it in bad weather... when we are not allowed any leeway off the manual, and if we are approaching in IMC (instrument meteorological conditions) due to work load and requirements we effectively have to configure at 2500 feet and be stable by 1500 to enable us to get stabilised in the conditions. In short great idea in theory, whether it can work in practice with so many different companies with different SOPs remains to be seen.
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Feb 9, 2015 04:31
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hjp766 posted:In short great idea in theory, whether it can work in practice with so many different companies with different SOPs remains to be seen. I think, in practice, this will only affect the point at which ATC gives you the already expected speed restrictions. If you're already following speed assignments by ATC then this shouldn't feel different.
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Feb 9, 2015 08:40
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The Ferret King posted:I think, in practice, this will only affect the point at which ATC gives you the already expected speed restrictions. If you're already following speed assignments by ATC then this shouldn't feel different. The problem becomes that we have to slow down at the same point over the ground irrespective of wind from the 170 or 160 knots as the AAL height is predicated off the ILS Glideslope. If for example a Medium is following a Heavy I would expect the problem to be greatest as they can start slowing later. Further, certain medium only operators to my knowledge used to not configure until 1500 feet as mentioned, that is c. 4 miles out... if they have been started off needing for example 3 minutes separation my fag packet maths suggested the 20 second cut in time as the heavy ahead will have had to reduce to c.130 final approach speed 6 miles out, and in a Boeing in strong headwinds we will have a groundspeed of only 110 odd Knots, whereas an airbus with groundspeed mini will maintain its groundspeed at final approach speed of c. 130 knots plus the intial period doing 170 knots... This also leads to another question as to how it will work in reality, I know of no UK airline where the CAA has in the ops manual approved operations using either a "land and hold short" or a "land after" clearance. If the other plane has not completely cleared the runway and we have not received a full landing clearance by 300 feet we will be going around 99 times out of 100. As a bonus, they are going to try and introduce it in the Easter Holiday period... Blustery conditions tend to lead to the most floated landings I find and consequentially longest runway occupancy times... so cutting the window with this will be fun to watch... from a safe distance. I wonder how many aircraft will call unable with the distance being too small, after all, there is the wonderful line that swings the onus all to us irrespective of ATC/Heathrow wishes "The Commander must ensure the safe operation of the Aircraft" and if they don't like the separation (and we start worrying at the 4 mile separation point) we will slow down anyway, even if ATC don't want to citing this point and we are covered from repercussions. We have no choice in law and sadly when certain airlines are around I will take the distance not the time. NB Boeing we bug VApp + half headwind component including gusts, minimum increment 5kts, max 20kts Airbus uses ALL the difference (computer generated). Please see http://www.smartcockpit.com/aircraft-ressources/A320-Ground_Speed_Mini_Function.html hjp766 fucked around with this message at 10:23 on Feb 9, 2015 |
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Feb 9, 2015 10:19
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Shoefish posted:First apply online here: http://careers.airservicesaustralia.com/caw/en/job/494563/air-traffic-controller-in-training-20142015-nationally I need a pilots license? 
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Feb 9, 2015 11:40
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No that's just their really badly written education requirements. Highschool education OR degree/diploma OR pilots licence. I just had highschool grad, nothing else. I think you're required to have done english/maths/a science, though that may have changed.
Shoefish fucked around with this message at 14:37 on Feb 9, 2015 |
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Feb 9, 2015 13:05
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hjp766 posted:The problem becomes that we have to slow down at the same point over the ground irrespective of wind from the 170 or 160 knots as the AAL height is predicated off the ILS Glideslope. If for example a Medium is following a Heavy I would expect the problem to be greatest as they can start slowing later. Further, certain medium only operators to my knowledge used to not configure until 1500 feet as mentioned, that is c. 4 miles out... if they have been started off needing for example 3 minutes separation my fag packet maths suggested the 20 second cut in time as the heavy ahead will have had to reduce to c.130 final approach speed 6 miles out, and in a Boeing in strong headwinds we will have a groundspeed of only 110 odd Knots, whereas an airbus with groundspeed mini will maintain its groundspeed at final approach speed of c. 130 knots plus the intial period doing 170 knots... I'm not sure I understand. Does ATC issue you speed restrictions inside 5 mile final? That doesn't happen in the U.S. You should still be free to manage your speed as necessary once descending past the final approach fix. Allowance for compression will need to be observed, but all this changes is that instead of giving you "170kts to the final approach fix" to achieve 5 miles separation behind the heavy, they're going to give you "170kts to the final approach fix" to achieve 135 seconds separation behind the heavy. Assuming they're correct about the safety of this, the flight deck shouldn't notice it at all. quote:Blustery conditions tend to lead to the most floated landings I find and consequentially longest runway occupancy times... so cutting the window with this will be fun to watch... from a safe distance. I wonder how many aircraft will call unable with the distance being too small, after all, there is the wonderful line that swings the onus all to us irrespective of ATC/Heathrow wishes "The Commander must ensure the safe operation of the Aircraft" and if they don't like the separation (and we start worrying at the 4 mile separation point) we will slow down anyway, even if ATC don't want to citing this point and we are covered from repercussions. When aircraft of a like-size (or the larger one is following the smaller one) we can reduce separation to 2.5nm at the busiest airports, within 10nm of the airport. They get off the runway in plenty of time with the high speed taxiways. It seems to work, but I know aviation is different in other parts of the world. I would think they considered runway occupancy time in this procedural change though.
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Feb 9, 2015 18:44
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Shoefish posted:Hey guys, just thought I'd say hi, I'm an Enroute ATC in Australia, rated for 3 years now. If anyone has any questions about how we do things in straya let me know! how can i get hired as a 'merican No, seriously. I have extensive tower background and been doing en route for the last few years now also. I see what you posted, but I was just curious what you knew about foreigners wanting to do it and also those with experience. I will fight {and get my rear end kicked) by a kangaroo if need be for the hiring process. Tommy 2.0 fucked around with this message at 16:28 on Feb 11, 2015 |
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Feb 11, 2015 16:24
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I think it's easier to get selected for the course with prior experience, one of the guys on my course was a previous controller in the Philippines. As far as recognition of prior learning etc, it would depend on individual circumstances I think. The guy on my course ended up doing the full course with us, but I believe had a much easier time once he got into the room. Also might be easier to go the tower route if you wanted, probably less of a learning curve with new systems, looking out windows at poo poo is looking out windows at poo poo everywhere I guess. (I know almost nothing about how towers work)
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Feb 12, 2015 06:31
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Shoefish posted:I think it's easier to get selected for the course with prior experience, one of the guys on my course was a previous controller in the Philippines. As far as recognition of prior learning etc, it would depend on individual circumstances I think. The guy on my course ended up doing the full course with us, but I believe had a much easier time once he got into the room. Also might be easier to go the tower route if you wanted, probably less of a learning curve with new systems, looking out windows at poo poo is looking out windows at poo poo everywhere I guess. (I know almost nothing about how towers work) Are you going to the college on your own dime or is it like our academy here where you are getting paid? How many pass/fail situations are you exposed to?
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Feb 12, 2015 16:45
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The college is paid, I believe around $50k a year. There are lots of tests in the 8 week theory block at the start, which is a pain in the arse but no-one ever fails there. Then there are sim checks for every module, so like 4 now I guess? From what I've heard things used to be pretty brutal, one supplementary exam allowed for the whole course, 2 fails and you're out. It's much better now though, you have to fuckup pretty badly and often to be kicked out. 3 (out of 12) people on my course ended up getting back coursed, (dropped back to join up with people on the course after us, thus getting to do the whole module again) after using multiple sups, and 2 of them are now rated controllers. Our course ended up with 7 rated controllers out of 12, but that can vary wildly. The course after us had 11 rate.
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Feb 13, 2015 06:56
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Anyone going to CFS?
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Feb 14, 2015 14:19
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Shoefish posted:The college is paid, I believe around $50k a year. There are lots of tests in the 8 week theory block at the start, which is a pain in the arse but no-one ever fails there. Then there are sim checks for every module, so like 4 now I guess? From what I've heard things used to be pretty brutal, one supplementary exam allowed for the whole course, 2 fails and you're out. It's much better now though, you have to fuckup pretty badly and often to be kicked out. 3 (out of 12) people on my course ended up getting back coursed, (dropped back to join up with people on the course after us, thus getting to do the whole module again) after using multiple sups, and 2 of them are now rated controllers. What is the pay checked out? Your average-ish tower pay?
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Feb 15, 2015 04:13
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Once you're rated first year is about $95k, then it pretty much goes up $10k a year for 10 years, assuming you don't put two planes together or otherwise fuckup too badly. Then there is public holiday pay and overtime on top of that, overtime paid like 2x base rate for the shift. Our EBA is here: http://www.airservicesaustralia.com/wp-content/uploads/hr-ca-0005_2012_15.pdf near the end is Attachment 1 which has the table of ATC pay rates. We get 5 weeks paid holiday a year, 6 if you work night shifts. Unlimited paid sick leave, though if you have more then 10? I think you have to have a meeting with your manager etc.
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Feb 15, 2015 10:08
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Shoefish posted:Unlimited paid sick leave, though if you have more then 10? I think you have to have a meeting with your manager etc. My area would be a loving ghost town if we had this. Content: I start R-school next Monday. Three hours a day of feeling like a twat and getting yelled at, broken up by an additional five hours of staring at maps! 
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Feb 15, 2015 18:57
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MrYenko posted:My area would be a loving ghost town if we had this. This is new?
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Feb 17, 2015 16:51
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Tommy 2.0 posted:This is new? I just had a six or seven month period of just being a D side, and going home. I was starting to get used to it.
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Feb 18, 2015 00:16
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A post on another aviation forum got me thinking about Open Skies Treaty operations. Basically, participating nations allow each other to overfly their territory and observe military assets to ensure compliance with various agreements. These aircraft are treated differently in the U.S. airspace system in that they receive priority handling, and their route of flight is not to be changed from what their filed flight plan states. Open Skies Treaty Tupolev Tu-204 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B0VtMrBYSsc Of course, our aircraft is a 707. Boeing OC-135B https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LOyh5aelDCs ATC is required to give procedural preference to aircraft operating in accordance with the Open Skies Treaty, excepting emergencies, presidential aircraft, and medical flights. quote:FAA JO 7110.65V 2-1-4 n. You're being watched by the Russians. Probably. The Ferret King fucked around with this message at 17:21 on Feb 19, 2015 |
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Feb 19, 2015 17:14
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I can probably guess the answer, but how do they ensure the things don't deviate from flight plans? I'm presuming we don't have fighters flying alongside them ready to shoot them down if they look funny.
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Feb 19, 2015 21:29
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That's all way above my pay grade. I'm sure they're watching, I'm sure they have ways.
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Feb 21, 2015 19:36
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Spacewolf posted:I can probably guess the answer, but how do they ensure the things don't deviate from flight plans? I'm presuming we don't have fighters flying alongside them ready to shoot them down if they look funny.
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Feb 21, 2015 19:44
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JohnClark posted:...and make sure we're not developing some comical super weapon. Somewhere, deep in a filing cabinet in Moscow, is a report from the eighties about an unidentified spheroid object being constructed in Orlando, and the nefarious uses that the CIA must be planning for it. EPCOT is such an obvious cover story.
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Feb 21, 2015 19:47
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The Ferret King posted:That's all way above my pay grade. I'm sure they're watching, I'm sure they have ways. This is correct. Those guys will call and scream within .1m of a deviation at certain places some times. Its crazy.
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Feb 22, 2015 19:42
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Was speaking with our most recent batch of academy intake, today. They had seventeen in their class, with ten passing. They were at the top of their class, and the four of them came to Miami center. The other options were: San Juan CENRAP.  Anchorage center.  And last, Guam CENRAP.  They are all very happy. We get another three tomorrow.
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Feb 23, 2015 22:42
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CENRAP?
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Feb 23, 2015 23:28
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It's a combination CENter and Radar APproach control.
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Feb 24, 2015 00:04
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Ah.
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Feb 24, 2015 01:07
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That's top of class? I am scared. On a different note, I start RPO training next week. 
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Feb 24, 2015 01:13
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MrYenko posted:Was speaking with our most recent batch of academy intake, today. They had seventeen in their class, with ten passing. San Juan CENRAP is a poo poo hole of a place to work. Don't ever think of trying to go. Long checkouts with horrible work conditions. Guam is a free checkout. We are talking way less than a year if you can breathe through your nose. It's not a bad gig and pays way more than the facility rating shows due to incentives and poo poo. Anchorage? No clue.
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Feb 24, 2015 02:20
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Pope Mobile posted:That's top of class? I am scared. Heyo. I did that for three and a half years. Best dead-end job on the planet.
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Feb 24, 2015 02:33
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MrYenko posted:Heyo. I did that for three and a half years. Best dead-end job on the planet. Did you work at the Academy or one of the field facilities? Pope Mobile posted:That's top of class? I am scared. Going to take a wild stab and say at the Academy. Hope you enjoy a boring rear end job that pays extremely well..lol
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Feb 24, 2015 07:26
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I worked at ZMA. The academy RPOs were always just a bit less enthusiastic with their situation than most of the others I've met. Apparently Raytheon management at OKC can be kind of dickish, and then there's the simple lack of variety and strict regimentation of the work. At Miami, we ran problems for every stage of training, in all six areas, plus refreshers, remedial, and additional training simulations for almost every other individual sector in the building. Lots to learn, and every day was always at least a little different. Some former coworkers of mine went to MIA tower when they got laid off in the first round back in 2010/11, and they enjoy it just as much, possibly more so, since MIA has the tower training can and radar that most of the terminal facilities in south Florida train on. The only real problem is that the FAA doesn't necessarily value RPO work on an application, and it's such a specialized job that the experience isn't applicable nearly anywhere else. Also, the money is pretty not-bad, which makes it a really hard job to quit, if that time comes. Great job, awful career move.
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Feb 24, 2015 12:40
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MrYenko posted:Was speaking with our most recent batch of academy intake, today. They had seventeen in their class, with ten passing. I offered to go to every one of those places while I was waiting... Also must be nice to have paid rpos. Trainees at zkc get that honor.
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Feb 24, 2015 16:38
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