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Ferrinus posted:First off, for all you know a 5-dot merit actually costs 45xp, not 15xp. After all, you buy the first dot for 3, the second dot for 6... It just makes more sense that you jump from 0 straight to 5 for 15 xp with the merit, given that there's no such thing as a two or three dot Merit for Sorcery.
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Feb 20, 2015 17:29
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However, that makes merit ratings completely useless as a measure of cost or value, because one "five dot" merit might secretly cost up to three times as much as another does. I'm sure that's actually how it's supposed to work, because after all every single other decision re: Exalted 3E experience points is in fact the most moronic possible one that could have been made, but that doesn't mean it isn't stupid as hell. EDIT: No, wait, the system for Essence increase is good. Everything aside from that. Ferrinus fucked around with this message at 17:40 on Feb 20, 2015 |
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Feb 20, 2015 17:35
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Ferrinus posted:However, that makes merit ratings completely useless as a measure of cost or value, because one "five dot" merit might secretly cost up to three times as much as another does. Consider, though: if you hand out BP as levelups, then your players will never gain Essence at all... because it requires certain threshold amounts of experience points.
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Feb 20, 2015 18:17
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Attorney at Funk posted:Consider, though: if you hand out BP as levelups, then your players will never gain Essence at all... because it requires certain threshold amounts of experience points. Or you could make up a chart for Essence to go up based on BP you've given out, which seems like a bit of houseruling well within the ability of anyone who decides that the XP/BP divide is dumb.
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Feb 20, 2015 19:47
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He's got you there.
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Feb 20, 2015 19:54
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Bouquet posted:Or you could make up a chart for Essence to go up based on BP you've given out, which seems like a bit of houseruling well within the ability of anyone who decides that the XP/BP divide is dumb. Hey, that's clever.
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Feb 20, 2015 20:09
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Don't all Sorcerors automatically become Thaumaturges as well? That would, by definition, mean Thaumaturgy is more common than Sorcery, since that would make the number of Thaumaturges in the world equal to the entirety of the world's Sorcerors, plus the number of non-sorcerous Thaumaturges on top of that. Also, please correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't the book explicitly state that people can teach Thaumaturgies to each other? The point of Thaumaturgies appearing spontaneously instead of being discovered initially through study is that it makes all Thaumaturges of a given tradition either descend from some origin point or be a savant - it makes Thaumaturgy into an art instead of a science. It's something with founder-savants and master/apprentice hedge wizards instead of something with laboratories and libraries. And please, check the book and correct me if I'm misremembering. I'm on my phone, or is do it myself.
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Feb 20, 2015 20:23
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jagadaishio posted:Also, please correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't the book explicitly state that people can teach Thaumaturgies to each other? Yes, but you can only learn them if you're (a) a thaumaturge by birth, or (b) initiated as a sorcerer (and thus also a thaumaturge).
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Feb 20, 2015 20:36
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Roadie posted:Yes, but you can only learn them if you're (a) a thaumaturge by birth, or (b) initiated as a sorcerer (and thus also a thaumaturge). Not only that, but apparently mortals don't become Thaumaturges on learning Sorcery either. Now that I'm back at a computer, the leak states that the only people with Thaumaturgy are mortals with the Thaumaturgy merit - which can only be acquired at birth, and never during play - and Exalts with Sorcery. quote:Mortal sorcerers do not gain this Merit automatically, and it cannot be taught, either to mortals or the uninitiated Chosen. With that in mind - the fact that Thaumaturgy is a natural-born talent and not something that can ever be learned, whereas Sorcery has a seemingly-endless supply of patrons who can grant it - from Ifrits to demons - schools which can teach it, and even odder ways to acquire it like that one alchemical draught, I expect that there would be far more 3e Sorcerers in Creation than 3e Thaumaturges, even if both are quite rare compared to the population at large. It's probably a poor idea, with these things in mind, to look at Sorcery and Thaumaturgy in terms of previous-edition fluff/mechanics in any way, since they're clearly fundamentally different beasts from what they once were, with Sorcery's Sorcerous Workings and 'Sorcerous Motes' rendering enlightened essence unnecessary for mortal occultists, and Thaumaturgy's inexplicable rarity and exclusivity.
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Feb 20, 2015 21:03
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Ferrinus posted:I'm not sure how I feel about that, because I kind of liked the idea of common and low-impact hedge magic, washerwomen knowing a charm to dry laundry faster, etc. I like that aesthetic too, but the same concept is covered decently enough by most of the prayers people engage in - practically oriented, an integral part of routines - as it would be in much of human history.
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Feb 20, 2015 21:26
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Bedlamdan posted:That's pretty much covered in Sorcerous Workings, yeah. Here's what's possible on the very lowest end: jagadaishio posted:with Sorcery's Sorcerous Workings and 'Sorcerous Motes' rendering enlightened essence unnecessary for mortal occultists, and Thaumaturgy's inexplicable rarity and exclusivity. Thinking about it, add (a) a learnable 1-dot Merit that requires Occult 1 and allows Terrestrial Circle sorcerous workings of Ambition 1 (and nothing else), and (b) a learnable 3-dot Merit that allows Terrestrial Circle sorcerous workings of any Ambition (and nothing else), and you've basically just replaced thaumaturgy entirely without needing the dumb point-sink of individual rituals. It even keeps the "minor magic uses of existing skills" vibe from 2e because Bob the Wizened Old Shoemaker with Occult 1 is going to have a small enough pool he'll be leaning on his higher Abilities as Means as often as he can. Edit: Also, something to cut the base time down from a week for workings with a goal number under 5, like "officiate a wedding properly so the participants are more likely to have a child" or "baptize a child such that it's protected against spirits for a year" or whatever. Roadie fucked around with this message at 21:40 on Feb 20, 2015 |
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Feb 20, 2015 21:31
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Roadie posted:Thinking about it, add (a) a learnable 1-dot Merit that requires Occult 1 and allows Terrestrial Circle sorcerous workings of Ambition 1 (and nothing else), and (b) a learnable 3-dot Merit that allows Terrestrial Circle sorcerous workings of any Ambition (and nothing else), and you've basically just replaced thaumaturgy entirely without needing the dumb point-sink of individual rituals. Remove the existing Thaumaturgy system entirely, rename Sorcerous Workings to Thaumaturgy. Have Thaumaturgist grant access to Terrestrial Circle Thaumaturgy, with a full refund if you go on to purchase the Sorcerer merit. Include a third merit - something like Quick Ritual or what have you - which cases Thaumaturgy to be resolved in a single scene or a single action if you manage to get all the required successes on a single roll. The result would be that mortal Thaumaturgists would be able to make little tricks and rituals that, without having access to excellencies and such, would be duds more often than successes, unless they're willing to extend them out - which, if you're officiating a wedding, or baptizing a baby, you probably aren't, to be fair. Even an Ambition 1 Terrestrial working requires 5 successes, so only the most expert of mortal Thaumaturges would have a better-than-even chance of actually producing an effect in a single scene, in that situation. All of this falls apart, though, when you realize that it costs 2, 4, or 8 xp to finish an Ambition 1, 2, or 3 working. Workings are super cool, and offer the kind of flexible ritual-work which Thaumaturgy should be, but they actually do cost an astounding amount to enact. That's the actual point of 3e's Thaumaturgy, as far as I can tell. They're workings that you purchase like spells to be freely spammed, instead of having to spend xp every time you want to use them. Honestly, the more I look at it, the more I think the Sorcery/Workings/Thaumaturgy system has absolutely enormous potential, but has a ton of rough edges which never got the smoothing they desperately needed. Which, really, is a lot of 3e in a nutshell, from what I can see. A huge improvement as a whole, but there's rough edges and clunky speedbumps everywhere which didn't get the attention they needed.
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Feb 21, 2015 15:37
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jagadaishio posted:A huge improvement as a whole, but there's rough edges and clunky speedbumps everywhere which didn't get the attention they needed. If only Holden's lawyers hadn't barred him from taking constructive critique, 3E might have turned out better.
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Feb 21, 2015 15:42
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So it looks like non-Solar excellencies are stronger on average than they had been. DBs can reroll a few failed dice on any roll that they'd spent WP on, Lunars can add two different attributes to a boosted roll rather than just one...
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Feb 21, 2015 16:03
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Roadie posted:Thinking about it, add (a) a learnable 1-dot Merit that requires Occult 1 and allows Terrestrial Circle sorcerous workings of Ambition 1 (and nothing else), and (b) a learnable 3-dot Merit that allows Terrestrial Circle sorcerous workings of any Ambition (and nothing else), and you've basically just replaced thaumaturgy entirely without needing the dumb point-sink of individual rituals. Doing Workings already costs XP, so that's similar in some respects. What seems to have changed in shifting from Thaumaturgy to Workings for minor magic is that everything is much more art than science - unlike thaumaturgical rituals, workings are bespoke, and the initiations you use to get there are likely unique or bargain-based as well. Techniques end up much less repeatable and mass-producible. (And even for spells there's nothing to imply that, for instance, a logistical game-changer like Infallible Messenger is learnable by just anyone.) Meanwhile, the new Thaumaturgy, which retains set rituals, isn't learnable.
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Feb 21, 2015 16:12
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jagadaishio posted:Honestly, the more I look at it, the more I think the Sorcery/Workings/Thaumaturgy system has absolutely enormous potential, but has a ton of rough edges which never got the smoothing they desperately needed. Which, really, is a lot of 3e in a nutshell, from what I can see. A huge improvement as a whole, but there's rough edges and clunky speedbumps everywhere which didn't get the attention they needed. It wasn't so much 'the issues didn't get the attention they needed' so much as the Devs were hellbent on having things a specific way, even if it wasn't as good.
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Feb 21, 2015 16:18
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OK so lemme get this straight, a lot of these things cost XP to accomplish? And these are temporary one shot things, and are not along the lines of the old hoary GURPS rule of "if you have a spare character point and you're in real deep poo poo you can spend that character point and recover all your HT"? And you still gain XP in the order of a handful per session, leaving aside all this poo poo with Crafting XP and what not?
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Feb 21, 2015 21:13
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Nessus posted:OK so lemme get this straight, a lot of these things cost XP to accomplish? And these are temporary one shot things, and are not along the lines of the old hoary GURPS rule of "if you have a spare character point and you're in real deep poo poo you can spend that character point and recover all your HT"? And you still gain XP in the order of a handful per session, leaving aside all this poo poo with Crafting XP and what not? Ah, but you see Thaumaturgy and Sorcery workings have their costs paid in purple XP so it's all ok.
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Feb 21, 2015 21:16
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If your expenditure on a sorcerous working is invalidated, because somebody broke your new Unconquered Sun Mark II or something, you get the XP back.
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Feb 21, 2015 21:16
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Yeah, so they're currently like buying merits with XP, where you get a refund if you lose it. I'd probably personally allow a certain number free per narrative arc and also allow for Bureaucratic Workings, Military Workings, et cetera. A big part of me honestly wishes "Workings" was the only craft/project system in 3e.
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Feb 21, 2015 21:46
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Rand Brittain posted:If your expenditure on a sorcerous working is invalidated, because somebody broke your new Unconquered Sun Mark II or something, you get the XP back.
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Feb 21, 2015 21:54
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Nessus posted:But why use "XP" for this at all? I guess you have a certain narrative trope accuracy here, where if someone murders the village full of people who I dropped 2 xp blessings on, I immediately get enough XP to become a karate master and seek revenge. But I suspect that's an accident. I would no poo poo love a game where that was intentional.
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Feb 21, 2015 21:58
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It's not really consistent with the rest of the game, because for instance artifacts require no XP to make and story merits require no XP to finalize. It reads to me like the simplest way they could think of to stop players from performing sorcerous workings constantly - but why they'd do that after doing totally different things with merits and crafts projects, I have no idea.
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Feb 21, 2015 21:59
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Nessus posted:OK so lemme get this straight, a lot of these things cost XP to accomplish? And these are temporary one shot things, and are not along the lines of the old hoary GURPS rule of "if you have a spare character point and you're in real deep poo poo you can spend that character point and recover all your HT"? And you still gain XP in the order of a handful per session, leaving aside all this poo poo with Crafting XP and what not? Nah, Sorcerous Workings are supposed to be permanent changes to the setting, though if the spell ever gets undone (or an Abyssal decides to just SMASH everything) you're refunded the experience you used to pay it at the end of the story. It's an investment, but it's not a permanent one if it's no longer useful to you or someone else decides to destroy it.
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Feb 21, 2015 22:38
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Night10194 posted:I would no poo poo love a game where that was intentional. I know as someone new to the series I'm not as jaded as others but I can't see how this isn't exactly how it works. "I blessed this town and you wiped it out, now I'm going to gently caress you right up with the kung fu power of revenge I got".
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Feb 21, 2015 23:19
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Tatum Girlparts posted:I know as someone new to the series I'm not as jaded as others but I can't see how this isn't exactly how it works. Pretty much. I had an idea of a kindly old sage weeping as he lets his beloved homeland deteriorate into a wasteland again, to gain the strength to defeat an invading army.
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Feb 21, 2015 23:30
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Tatum Girlparts posted:I know as someone new to the series I'm not as jaded as others but I can't see how this isn't exactly how it works. That is how it works, the point is more that it's probably unintentional coolness rather than intentional design.
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Feb 21, 2015 23:40
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My god, the late piece of chapter fiction about Chejop Kejak is amazingly bad.
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Feb 22, 2015 17:05
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Ferrinus posted:My god, the late piece of chapter fiction about Chejop Kejak is amazingly bad. What does Ketchup do on it?
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Feb 22, 2015 17:22
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Nothing. He just has poorly-written thoughts about poorly-described events and then teleports away.
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Feb 22, 2015 17:24
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Ferrinus posted:Nothing. He just has poorly-written thoughts about poorly-described events and then teleports away. *tears of nostalgia fills my eyes*
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Feb 22, 2015 17:27
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Ferrinus posted:Nothing. He just has poorly-written thoughts about poorly-described events and then teleports away. Who among us can't say the same?
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Feb 22, 2015 17:31
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He shouldn't be allowed to be a sig anymore, imo.
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Feb 22, 2015 17:58
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Chejop Kejak's great in a world in which Essence 6+ just means you have a bigger essence pool and maybe a few weird personal tricks rather than double everyone else's combat stats and access to on-demand Banshee's Wail. Here's something funny: the firewand rules state A) that a charm can't extend a firewand's range unless that Charm explicitly says it can, and B) that a charm can't extend a firewand's past medium, period, ever. I wonder how many books we'll go before a charm tries to let you make a long-ranged firewand attack.
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Feb 22, 2015 18:17
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Ferrinus posted:Here's something funny: the firewand rules state A) that a charm can't extend a firewand's range unless that Charm explicitly says it can, and B) that a charm can't extend a firewand's past medium, period, ever. I wonder how many books we'll go before a charm tries to let you make a long-ranged firewand attack. Baby's first Death Ray. Also, if I can't build some kind of fiery tornado siege cannon fueled with barrels and barrels of firedust and red jade, something has failed in the system.
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Feb 22, 2015 19:01
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Don't worry, while there will never be a charm that extends a firewand's range past medium, there will be one that lets you treat long-range opponents as though they were medium-ranged, a charm that lets you stretch the firewand's barrel out really far, etc. Seriously, though, I have to reiterate how unmitigatedly awful the pre-armory chapter fiction is. Go read it, it's some Mr. Shivers poo poo.
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Feb 22, 2015 19:03
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Does someone get a handjob in it? e: the chapter fiction I mean, the armory section can be construed as a HJ for crafters
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Feb 22, 2015 19:14
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Mile'ionaha posted:Baby's first Death Ray. The game would have to acknowledge sieges first.
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Feb 22, 2015 19:16
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Ferrinus posted:Chejop Kejak's great in a world in which Essence 6+ just means you have a bigger essence pool and maybe a few weird personal tricks rather than double everyone else's combat stats and access to on-demand Banshee's Wail. I'm ok w him mechanically or other elder sidereals, I'm just talking about him as a setting fixture. They need to have a better leader of the Bronze faction.
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Feb 22, 2015 19:29
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I like Carjack, but I suspect the version in my head has long ago stopped being the one the writers think about.
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Feb 22, 2015 21:20
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