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DarkCrawler posted:You can convert, but Israel has in past banned single criminal/suspicious born Jews as well as groups not considered Jewish enough from entering the country. I don't think they would react any better if 11+million Palestinians said they would want to convert to Judaism and demand equal eights and voting power. Besides, the Law of Return is pretty clear about who gains automatic citizenship, and converts do not meet said requirements. Wait. Isn't this basically the reverse situation if the Spanish Morascoes/Monascoes?
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Feb 20, 2015 19:00
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DarkCrawler posted:You pretty obviously haven't been, beyond claiming that you have. And no, I don't think they're subhuman monsters. Anyone who supports apartheid is pretty demonstrably an evil person though, which obviously isn't something outside the circle of humanity. Feel free to go back and read them, I won't bother to quote them myself since you seem indifferent to the evidence but in case I'm wrong it's there for you to see. Also: If anyone who is a Zionist supports "apartheid", and therefore is a demonstrably evil person, then what percentage of Jews do you consider evil people? A brief Google search doesn't bring up any polls specifically asking Jews if they're Zionists, but let's be honest, we're almost certainly talking a percentage in 90s here. Isn't there something more than a little problematic if you're insisting that the vast majority of Jews are demonstrably evil people because they refuse to abandon the idea of Jewish nationalism(I won't bother to ask if you think Palestinians are evil because they support Palestinian nationalism)?
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Feb 20, 2015 19:39
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The Insect Court posted:Feel free to go back and read them, I won't bother to quote them myself since you seem indifferent to the evidence but in case I'm wrong it's there for you to see. Man, you just keep on earning that red text. Maybe there's a distinction between abstractly supporting Zionism, or perhaps supporting a Jewish homeland within internationally recognized borders, and supporting a colonialist and ethno-religiously chauvinist empire outside of those borders? I don't suppose that would have occurred to you.
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Feb 20, 2015 19:51
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The Insect Court posted:Feel free to go back and read them, I won't bother to quote them myself since you seem indifferent to the evidence but in case I'm wrong it's there for you to see. If you support a system where some natives/citizens have inferior rights because they aren't the right race, you are an evil person. It's not my fault that modern Zionism has hitched itself to an apartheid state and actively campaigns for the maintaining of that country as it is and in many cases expansion of its territory through colonialism. If they support Jewish nationalism that isn't synonymous with the State of Israel, more power to them, but I've yet to see that.
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Feb 20, 2015 19:53
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The Insect Court posted:A brief Google search doesn't bring up any polls specifically asking Jews if they're Zionists, but let's be honest, we're almost certainly talking a percentage in 90s here. So did you pull that totally fictional and certainly false number out of your own rear end, or did you get it from a source you know will get torn apart if you cite it?
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Feb 20, 2015 20:13
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The Insect Court posted:Also: If anyone who is a Zionist supports "apartheid", and therefore is a demonstrably evil person, then what percentage of Jews do you consider evil people? A brief Google search doesn't bring up any polls specifically asking Jews if they're Zionists, but let's be honest, we're almost certainly talking a percentage in 90s here. Isn't there something more than a little problematic if you're insisting that the vast majority of Jews are demonstrably evil people because they refuse to abandon the idea of Jewish nationalism(I won't bother to ask if you think Palestinians are evil because they support Palestinian nationalism)? Currently believing or doing a bad thing is not the same as being an evil person. Many people in this thread, for instance, used to think Israel was the just and moral party in the dispute, but were forced to change their minds as they educated themselves and the situation became more clear. We should be understanding of people, and remember that for someone with a religious or cultural attachment to Israel it may be especially difficult and painful to acknowledge the truth about Israel. But that doesn't make them evil, not even close.
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Feb 20, 2015 20:13
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It's year 2015 and most Jewish people live in modern countries because their whole history is pretty much evil fucks chasing them away from wherever they were because of their race. If someone supports racial laws while having received even a semi-solid education they're lovely people. If someone in Europe or US openly says that native citizens of different race deserve less rights they are really, really, really fringe. Yet in Israel this is not only commonplace, but actually codified in law and celebrated as one of the basic tenets of the country. I'm not going to give a Jew supporting the State of Israel any less leeway then I would give some white supremacist in Hungary supporting antisemitic legislation, I don't know why this is controversial. They're both evil assholes. Until they change their thinking, that's what they're going to remain to be. 
DarkCrawler fucked around with this message at 23:31 on Feb 20, 2015 |
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Feb 20, 2015 23:28
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DarkCrawler posted:It's year 2015 and most Jewish people live in modern countries because their whole history is pretty much evil fucks chasing them away from wherever they were because of their race. If someone supports racial laws while having received even a semi-solid education they're lovely people. If someone in Europe or US openly says that native citizens of different race deserve less rights they are really, really, really fringe. Yet in Israel this is not only commonplace, but actually codified in law and celebrated as one of the basic tenets of the country. I'm not going to give a Jew supporting the State of Israel any less leeway then I would give some white supremacist in Hungary supporting antisemitic legislation, I don't know why this is controversial. They're both evil assholes. Until they change their thinking, that's what they're going to remain to be. The thing is, you seem to have completly lost the ability to try to relate to the average Israeli and to understand how they perceive the situation, you are far from alone in this among D&D posters but I particularly seem to remember (perhaps incorrectly?) that you had a somewhat more nuanced view on the situation and recently it's rather "lovely country" this and "evil assholes" that.However this is a discussion board on a forum famed for making fun of script kiddies back in 1999 so it's not like it really matters either way what anyone says or doesn't, it's just, in my humble opinion, an inherently unconstructive approach towards pretty much any conflict in which you'd ideally like to see a non-violent resolution. I'll just leave this lovely Hadith here: quote:Anas ibn Malik reported: The Messenger of Allah, peace and blessings be upon him, said, “Help your brother whether he is an oppressor or is being oppressed.” It was said, “O Messenger of Allah, we help the one being oppressed but how do we help an oppressor?” The Prophet said, “By seizing his hand.”
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Feb 21, 2015 00:16
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I don't think all Israelis are evil. I don't think all Jews are evil. Some of them don't agree with the policies, some are trying to change the situation, and so on. I don't think I'm particularly extreme, I think most settlers should be allowed to stay where they are in any peace negotiations, I don't think Israeli Jews are foreigners to the region, I have no problem with Israel having nukes, I think Hamas is a lovely organization that needs to be gone. I don't think its the worst country in the region by any metric. But I'm just out of any sympathy for the Likud supporters, for the right-wing in general, for those abroad who lobby and campaign for unconditional support of Israel. I'm tired with having to make clear that I don't hate all Jews or all Israelis when nobody questions me hating all Palestinians when I condemn Hamas, all Arabs when I condemn most Arab states in regards to the I/P conflict, and so on. And the only resolution to this conflict, just like with South Africa, just like with Rhodesia, with American South, the Balkans, etc. is an outside authority dragging the more powerful party kicking and screaming into giving rights/independence to those they view inferior. Nobody seems to have any problem with anyone condemning those parties either. It's been 65+ years. I think we're way past the point of trusting Israel to solve anything on its own volition. Just because I understand the thought process behind the average Israeli doesn't mean I have to sympathize with them. And I will continue to condemn anyone who believes in racial segregation as an uniformly lovely person until they change their ways. DarkCrawler fucked around with this message at 00:49 on Feb 21, 2015 |
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Feb 21, 2015 00:42
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I seem to recall that in the Jim Crow South, there was a lot of handwringing about failing to understand white southerners and relate to their motivations as well. But there's only so much to be gained from relating to somebody. Eventually you have to resort to shaming them before the world.
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Feb 21, 2015 00:47
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Maybe you did not appreciate that this is Friday humor time!!  Naftali Bennett wished Israeli soldiers that they stay warm while they guard the motherland: "To all the soldiers guarding us in the cold and the snow, on the Lebanese border, on the Golan Heights, on the Jordanian border, in the Negev desert and on the border with Gaza, in the sea, in the air, and on the ground, thank you. We love you." Some of the responses are in the same spirit. Others, though, in reference to Jewish Home's homophobia, posted thousands and thousands of iterations of this picture:  This is from the movie Yossi and Jagger, about a homosexual love affair between IDF soldiers in Southern Lebanon. Many of the replies to those posts are naturally quite homophobic. It's quite priceless. 
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Feb 21, 2015 00:54
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SedanChair posted:I seem to recall that in the Jim Crow South, there was a lot of handwringing about failing to understand white southerners and relate to their motivations as well. But there's only so much to be gained from relating to somebody. Eventually you have to resort to shaming them before the world. "But you guys... I really really really want to enslave black people. I'm gonna hold my breath until I pass out if you don't let me."
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Feb 21, 2015 01:04
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SedanChair posted:I seem to recall that in the Jim Crow South, there was a lot of handwringing about failing to understand white southerners and relate to their motivations as well. But there's only so much to be gained from relating to somebody. Eventually you have to resort to shaming them before the world. Oh, was that an attempt at humor I missed? I keep forgetting how much shaming in front of the world worked in ending Jim Crow. Preeeetty sure it had more to do with people forcing the point inside the US, and the ability of the American political process to adapt and change in that direction, due to a strong constitutional tradition and institutions that could uphold it when pressed. If the people fighting Jim Crow were as willfully ignorant of the American political system and its society as anti-Zionists insist on being regarding the Israeli one, those laws would still be on the books. 
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Feb 21, 2015 01:17
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Absurd Alhazred posted:Oh, was that an attempt at humor I missed? You are completely incorrect. Shame played a huge role, at every level.
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Feb 21, 2015 01:19
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SedanChair posted:You are completely incorrect. Shame played a huge role, at every level. Proceed, Governor.
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Feb 21, 2015 01:30
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Why adapt and change if you've got nothing to be ashamed of?
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Feb 21, 2015 01:35
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Absurd Alhazred posted:Oh, was that an attempt at humor I missed? The shaming in this case was more about the rest of the US then the rest of the world. Dogs and fire hoses attacking peaceful protesters, people threatening children going to school, lynchings, etc. US is huge and it was mostly limited to one part of the country so you didn't really have to convince other countries to end it. In Israel, like in South Africa, it seems to be pretty much universal and there is not the majority of the country pushing a civil rights act any soon. The outside authority to South was the US Federal Government, not the world consensus. The only authority somewhat against segregation in Israel seems to be the High Court. DarkCrawler fucked around with this message at 01:40 on Feb 21, 2015 |
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Feb 21, 2015 01:36
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SedanChair posted:Why adapt and change if you've got nothing to be ashamed of? Is this a serious question? You can't, yourself, name a dozen other reasons to adapt and change off the top of your head?
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Feb 21, 2015 01:38
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SedanChair posted:Why adapt and change if you've got nothing to be ashamed of? Why feel shame when being derided by someone you don't respect? And if you simply make sure you do not respect anybody who shames you, which mainstream and rightwards Israeli society has managed to do in the last few decades, what power is there in shame? What kind of shaming of the US in front of the world ended Jim Crow? Who derided them, and why did they respect them?
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Feb 21, 2015 01:38
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So how do these Ulpan programs work, exactly?
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Feb 21, 2015 01:39
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DarkCrawler posted:The shaming in this case was more about the rest of the US then the rest of the world. Dogs and fire hoses attacking peaceful protesters, people threatening children going to school, lynchings, etc. US is huge and it was mostly limited to one part of the country so you didn't really have to convince other countries to end it. In Israel, like in South Africa, it seems to be pretty much universal and there is not the majority of the country pushing a civil rights act any soon. The outside authority to South was the US Federal Government, not the world consensus. An authority they ultimately respected. Who is going to send their 101st Airborne to force Israel to withdraw settlements? The only way that situation ends without civil war/genocide is with the IDF doing it. And that is not going to happen without political change in Israel. I want to reiterate that outside pressure is vital. But it is also important to understand what the pressure is acting upon.
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Feb 21, 2015 01:41
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Absurd Alhazred posted:What kind of shaming of the US in front of the world ended Jim Crow? Who derided them, and why did they respect them? Indeed, a lot of anti-segregationist shaming came from the Second World and nations in the Non-Aligned Movement, which was pretty useful to segregationists and conservatives, since they could dismiss the civil rights movement as being basically just a lot of communist agitation. I suspect (having no first-hand knowledge whatsoever) that you could substitute "anti-semite" for "communist" and the parallel would be reasonably strong.
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Feb 21, 2015 01:46
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Jack of Hearts posted:Indeed, a lot of anti-segregationist shaming came from the Second World and nations in the Non-Aligned Movement, which was pretty useful to segregationists and conservatives, since they could dismiss the civil rights movement as being basically just a lot of communist agitation. I suspect (having no first-hand knowledge whatsoever) that you could substitute "anti-semite" for "communist" and the parallel would be reasonably strong. Pretty much. Remember this? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qhbyRb8fu44
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Feb 21, 2015 01:49
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Absurd Alhazred posted:Why feel shame when being derided by someone you don't respect? And if you simply make sure you do not respect anybody who shames you, which mainstream and rightwards Israeli society has managed to do in the last few decades, what power is there in shame? Oh there's no need to court their respect. Those people have to be cut out from the rest of civilization and made pariahs. Even now white southerners have a reputation for cruelty and ignorance, which pleases me. And in the case of Israel this has happened as well. It's a long process, and many ignorant and barbaric right-wingers in Israel will be able to live comfortable lives without feeling the effects of international opprobrium, but give it time. quote:What kind of shaming of the US in front of the world ended Jim Crow? Already answered; dogs and hoses on TV. quote:Who derided them, Everyone who wasn't a racist, or wanted to make the South or the US in general look bad. quote:and why did they respect them? Probably because of Cold War politics. Hard to be a beacon of freedom when you're arresting US citizens for trying to vote.
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Feb 21, 2015 01:50
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Absurd Alhazred posted:An authority they ultimately respected. Who is going to send their 101st Airborne to force Israel to withdraw settlements? The only way that situation ends without civil war/genocide is with the IDF doing it. And that is not going to happen without political change in Israel. There isn't going to political change in Israel until the status quo is a worse option then rights/independence for the Palestinians. Violence doesn't obviously work. Sanctions and international isolation will, like with South Africa, because you can't defeat those with superior military power and building walls. Israel can keep the status quo going on as long as they want, and until the world does something else then asking them really nicely to come to the negotiation table while US blocks every resolution in the UN, they have no impetus in changing that status quo. Palestinian Authority has done everything possible, down to offering pretty much everything they can (Palestine Papers, etc.) to literally going to war with Hamas, and it's earned them jack and poo poo because Israel has no reason to give up anything. So they need a reason. Jack of Hearts posted:Indeed, a lot of anti-segregationist shaming came from the Second World and nations in the Non-Aligned Movement, which was pretty useful to segregationists and conservatives, since they could dismiss the civil rights movement as being basically just a lot of communist agitation. I suspect (having no first-hand knowledge whatsoever) that you could substitute "anti-semite" for "communist" and the parallel would be reasonably strong. 90% of the shaming came from United States itself. I was having difficulty finding even a snippet of outside influence on stopping Jim Crow (as opposed to slavery). Israel lacks a civil rights movement beyond some scholars, organizations like B'tselem and minor parties, just like South Africa. And just like South Africa, you are going to need outside shaming/isolation/sanctions to have them do something. DarkCrawler fucked around with this message at 02:00 on Feb 21, 2015 |
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Feb 21, 2015 01:57
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SedanChair posted:Oh there's no need to court their respect. Those people have to be cut out from the rest of civilization and made pariahs. Even now white southerners have a reputation for cruelty and ignorance, which pleases me. And in the case of Israel this has happened as well. It's a long process, and many ignorant and barbaric right-wingers in Israel will be able to live comfortable lives without feeling the effects of international opprobrium, but give it time. How many Palestinians do you think will survive this chemotherapy that you are prescribing, Dr. Chair? quote:Already answered; dogs and hoses on TV. Oh, so, again, not in front of the world, in front of the rest of the American public and its authority, which even those Southerners respected. quote:Everyone who wasn't a racist, or wanted to make the South or the US in general look bad. Which of them did they respect? Those loving commies? quote:Probably because of Cold War politics. Hard to be a beacon of freedom when you're arresting US citizens for trying to vote. Yeah, no. Cold War politics meant they could dismiss most agitators as commies. It's also hard to be a beacon of freedom when you outlaw a legitimate political party, but the Communist Party was illegal in the US for years without repercussions. Hell, if I understand it correctly, you still can't be a Federal worker if you are a commie or were a commie. I basically want something a bit more than your gut feelings and anti-racist determinism. Any citations, anything useful to back what you're saying up? You know, on the off chance that you're not just parroting whatever your BDS activisty friends have told you, and actually have something I might find useful in my attempts to enact change over yonder.
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Feb 21, 2015 01:58
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DarkCrawler posted:There isn't going to political change in Israel until the status quo is a worse option then rights/independence for the Palestinians. Violence doesn't obviously work. Sanctions and international isolation will, like with South Africa, because you can't defeat those with superior military power and building walls. Israel can keep the status quo going on as long as they want, and until the world does something else then asking them really nicely to come to the negotiation table while US blocks every resolution in the UN, they have no impetus in changing that status quo. Palestinian Authority has done everything possible, down to offering pretty much everything they can (Palestine Papers, etc.) to literally going to war with Hamas, and it's earned them jack and poo poo because Israel has no reason to give up anything. So they need a reason. You can also become North Korea and just dive into isolation, never to reappear, after a massive genocide of most of the Palestinian population. They could also devolve into civil war as in Syria or Iraq. I agree with you that the PA, even Hamas, for the most part, have done what they could on their side. I also agree that at the very least it is essential that the US stop giving Israel diplomatic immunity. What I do not accept that this is in any way sufficient. And note that even in your case you are not talking about shame, but socio-economic realities. But again, that is insufficient.
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Feb 21, 2015 02:03
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Absurd Alhazred posted:
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-Apartheid_Movement http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sporting_boycott_of_South_Africa_during_the_Apartheid_era http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Academic_boycott_of_South_Africa http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disinvestment_from_South_Africa http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_South_Africa_Movement http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comprehensive_Anti-Apartheid_Act Absurd Alhazred posted:You can also become North Korea and just dive into isolation, never to reappear, after a massive genocide of most of the Palestinian population. They could also devolve into civil war as in Syria or Iraq. Israel is in no shape way or form comparable to North Korea. For one, it's 2015. I think people would not exactly go along with dismantling internet there... And international isolation to me implies shame. Israel seems to be pretty into being "one of the West" down to sports and completing in the Eurovision. What is your alternative? Asking them nicely? We've done it for more then half a century with zero results. Camp David worked because continuing state of war with Arab states was an actual military threat to Israel, like Yom Kippur and War of Attrition showed. Palestinians don't have that. DarkCrawler fucked around with this message at 02:10 on Feb 21, 2015 |
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Feb 21, 2015 02:04
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I'm not going to bother because you are in pure aggressive rebuttal mode. I don't have any "BDS friends" nor do I have anything useful for you. All I have is my disgust. You will have to take it from there. If you don't respect me that is fine; Likud supporters don't respect me either. Join them in deploring me.
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Feb 21, 2015 02:05
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SedanChair posted:Even now white southerners have a reputation for cruelty and ignorance, which pleases me. I want to save this post somewhere, so that every time I see you get morally outraged by something in D&D, I can read it and remember that your "morality" is just the hypocritical expression of the will-to-power of a deeply unpleasant human being. "Yay for prejudice and stereotyping against people born with a particular skin tone in a particular geographic region!"
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Feb 21, 2015 02:06
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DarkCrawler posted:http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-Apartheid_Movement None of these is about the Jim Crow South, which is what I was asking SedanChair about. Nor does the existence of these prove their efficacy in the South African case. SedanChair posted:I'm not going to bother because you are in pure aggressive rebuttal mode. I don't have any "BDS friends" nor do I have anything useful for you. All I have is my disgust. You will have to take it from there. If you don't respect me that is fine; Likud supporters don't respect me either. Join them in deploring me. Forgive me for my aggression, but disgust isn't policy. Disgust is insufficient. You may come here once every dozen or so pages and pour out whatever ill-formed half-assed argument you have and then walk away feeling superior, but those are my friends and family you're talking about being part of this poo poo. Most of them not that right-wing, but some are. I will use my ability to actually talk to them and that they will listen to me with at least half an ear to enact change. Because I doubt any Likud supporters know who you are or even care about you. They don't give a poo poo what you, an American gentile without sway in US politics have to say, other than maybe citing you as yet another example of "antisemitism". I, on the other hand, do, because I know that once in a while there is a pearl of something interesting in what you say that I can then use. I am willing to listen if you want to actually talk rather than bloviate.
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Feb 21, 2015 02:11
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SedanChair posted:I seem to recall that in the Jim Crow South, there was a lot of handwringing about failing to understand white southerners and relate to their motivations as well. But there's only so much to be gained from relating to somebody. Eventually you have to resort to shaming them before the world. Oh dear. Are you an octogenarian African-American who grew up in rural Alabama now? It's hard to keep track of who you're pretending to be. I don't know why you bother, really. The substance of your claim is, naturally, utterly wrong. Only someone wholly ignorant of the history of the civil rights movement could suggest that its goals were to shame white Southerners into just giving up on Jim Crow.
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Feb 21, 2015 02:14
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DarkCrawler posted:90% of the shaming came from United States itself. I was having difficulty finding even a snippet of outside influence on stopping Jim Crow (as opposed to slavery). Israel lacks a civil rights movement beyond some scholars, organizations like B'tselem and minor parties, just like South Africa. And just like South Africa, you are going to need outside shaming/isolation/sanctions to have them do something. I agree with this, the discussion as I understood it had to do with the value of "shaming" in striving for a just resolution to the conflict. I think the value of shame is, in this case, borderline nonexistent, because as with the apartheid leadership of South Africa, the political elites of Israel are (currently, at least) pretty drat shameless. This is fine. As with South Africa, there are other avenues of change .
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Feb 21, 2015 02:15
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Absurd Alhazred posted:None of these is about the Jim Crow South, which is what I was asking SedanChair about. Nor does the existence of these prove their efficacy in the South African case. Well be honest, what do you think ended apartheid in South Africa? It wasn't ANC's violent campaign, nor was it moral white resistance inside South Africa.
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Feb 21, 2015 02:19
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Here's what I don't get. Sure, I'm bloviating. I'm not discussing policy specifics--why would I? Your knowledge of Israel's policies is orders of magnitude greater than my own. I am in fact just an American gentile. So why are you tirelessly rebutting my posts when you don't disagree with them and your main critique is how simplistic they are? Ignore them. In the US, I/P is a very simple issue. All the talk about borders and peace plans is used exclusively as camouflage for our support of genocide. The issue breaks down into those who support it, and those who are trying to get more people to realize it even exists. That's how we address the issue, in very simplistic terms. I don't have any solutions for you. The only suggestion I have is public demonstrations in solidarity with Palestinians, but I don't want to make that suggestion because I think you are a good person who may eventually find a way to make a difference and I don't want you to die.
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Feb 21, 2015 02:20
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DarkCrawler posted:Israel is in no shape way or form comparable to North Korea. For one, it's 2015. I think people would not exactly go along with dismantling internet there... Not that I want to sperg too much on one of my rhetorical points, but how hard do you really think it would be for the Israeli security establishment to crack down on expression on the internet? They have the technology, they just need the cultural shift. quote:And international isolation to me implies shame. Israel seems to be pretty into being "one of the West" down to sports and completing in the Eurovision. For some Israelis this is important. For a rising elite of religious zealots like Bennett, that's not as important as being a proud Jew. And historically the main reason Israel isn't competing in Asian sports is boycotts. So what did they do when boycotted? They said "fine, we'll go somewhere else". If the Russian angle gains enough traction, maybe Israel competes with Free Eastern Ukraine Republic, Crimea, Russia, Kazakhstan, etc. quote:What is your alternative? Asking them nicely? We've done it for more then half a century with zero results. Camp David worked because continuing state of war with Arab states was an actual military threat to Israel, like Yom Kippur and War of Attrition showed. Palestinians don't have that. As I have repeatedly articulated in this thread and its predecessor, my alternative is many-pronged. It includes removing blanket US support while bolstering EU settlement-targeted sanctions. It includes supporting left-wing parties in Israel, but also centrists who are exposing the monetary cost of the settlement project to the rest of the population, which is severe. The very fact that the settlers need to hide their expenditures from the larger public shows, as did the Disengagement, that in and of themselves, the settlers are not popular among other Israeli Jews. They are parasitic on a sense that the Right is more Secure. In terms of internal politics that is what needs to be fought. It needs to be clear that settlements are not making Israel more secure, quite the contrary. I am not saying that this is guaranteed to work. But global sanctions and particularly academic and cultural boycotts are an excellent way to push centrists into the right-winger's hands. If you make them feel ashamed to be Israelis, period, while the settlers make them feel proud, who do you think they will choose? Who won in 1980, Reagan or Carter?
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Feb 21, 2015 02:23
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Absurd Alhazred posted:Who won in 1980, Reagan or Carter? Reagan because the right wing engaged in treasonous conspiracy to undermine Carter's diplomacy. That's what you get for treating them like people with souls.
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Feb 21, 2015 02:27
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Israel is not south africa. It's like the opening sentence of Anna Karenina you know? Every opressive regime is opressive in its own way, you think that through 'shaming' (whatever that is, I'm not sure inflammatory rhetoric has the same psychological effects as some of you think it does) you can convince an entire nation of people who are sure that the entire world has been out to get them and their ancestors since time immemorial that the people they view as their sworn enemies are actually the true victims and that as soon as they just ease off a bit with the whole apartheid thing everything will rapidly become much better and that they wouldn't have to worry about busses going off anymore? Can you only envision one single outcome to this whole thing? I agree with Absurd, this determinism and the insistence upon viewing every occurance as being a manifestation of something else that has previously happened seems to me more intellectually lazy than anything else. I do not presume to predict the future or know what's going to happen around here, things could end up way worse for both nations than they are now just as well as they could improve.
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Feb 21, 2015 02:28
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Besides, I'm faithfully carrying out one prong of AA's strategy. My harangues are intended for a domestic audience, I don't expect them to appear trenchant to actual Israelis.
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Feb 21, 2015 02:30
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SedanChair posted:Here's what I don't get. Sure, I'm bloviating. I'm not discussing policy specifics--why would I? Your knowledge of Israel's policies is orders of magnitude greater than my own. I am in fact just an American gentile. So why are you tirelessly rebutting my posts when you don't disagree with them and your main critique is how simplistic they are? Ignore them. Then make sure you have the facts right, or Hasbara idiots will play you like a fiddle. Seriously, I want Hasbara people to have real problems. It's hard when I have to roll my eyes at pro-Palestinians saying things that are demonstrably false. When you're in the minority you have to be holier than the Pope. quote:I don't have any solutions for you. The only suggestion I have is public demonstrations in solidarity with Palestinians, but I don't want to make that suggestion because I think you are a good person who may eventually find a way to make a difference and I don't want you to die. I have done that before. They are not very effective, but even with the craziness over the summer my friends who have done this have been hit no further than being beaten up a bit. I am looking for other ways because I don't see those demonstrations as having been very effective. Israeli leftists have been cast as antisemitic caricatures, outside of their natural demographics it'll take a lot of work. That being said, I'm openly voting for the Joint Arab List, which is something that a lot of people would conceive of as treasonous, so maybe my trip to Israel this time will be more exciting than past ones. I do appreciate that your heart is in the right place, and I'm glad you feel the same. If it weren't, I wouldn't be as aggravated.  DarkCrawler posted:Well be honest, what do you think ended apartheid in South Africa? It wasn't ANC's violent campaign, nor was it moral white resistance inside South Africa. I think it had to do with the reality of Afrikaners being in the minority, along with the economic sanctions, coupled with their affinity to Europe being much stronger than that of Israelis, and the guaranteed from Mandela that they could safely turn the whole thing off (and his credibility hinged on the ANC's history, including the violent campaigns that followed and were followed peaceful resistance). The US dropping them as the last bastion of anti-Communism when the USSR fell was basically what tipped them over. Boycotts by themselves would not have been enough. And I've heard tell that the cultural and sports boycotts may have actually prolonged Apartheid for a few years, although I wouldn't know. Furthermore, many whites emigrated after Apartheid fell. They had a much easier time doing so, and knowing they would be "among friends", than most Israeli Jews, who are, at the end of the day, Jews, and take antisemitism in Europe a lot more seriously.
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Feb 21, 2015 02:32
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