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My impression of the NCR (admittedly highly informed by my idea of NV as primarily about the use of symbols and the formation of individual and group identity) is that while they utilize the symbols and language of democracy, they never really developed the underlying culture that supports a functioning democracy. What the people actually believed in was Tandi, and they supported whatever "democracy" was because it was what Tandi said was good, but Tandi is dead and neither the leadership nor the people absorbed the concepts of service and acting for the common good that make a democracy more than 51% voting to rob 49%. What they believe in now is the might that follows the symbol, which is why they go around dickwaving about how they steamrolled those locals and move into territories to exploit, evict, or kill the previous inhabitants rather than treating them as at least provisionally possessing the same fundamental rights as NCR citizens. The NCR has managed to bring a degree of stability without actually becoming a dystopia, which is good, but their identity is more about might than about right and they don't have a proper philosophical grounding for why they do what they do. And the seeds of their undoing are quite visible as their might falters due to the leadership treating conquest as a means to personal advancement regardless of the cost to the state as a whole, while the people are fine as long as the symbol still seems to project strength. If they keep on their current path, I'd expect a civil war within a few decades as the outer regions try to form their own military forces to deal with the bandits that the NCR can no longer contain with its forces stretched too far, and the NCR seeking to crush any signs of a new organized military within their territory. If they were to curtail their expansion plans and work on consolidating their territory, though, I would expect matters to be much more stable. Which is why the House and Yes Man endings are really the best endings for the NCR in the long run, as it would force them to reexamine whether they can really just crush anyone in their path, while still providing them with additional resources (at a price, rather than just by fiat) and a buffer between them and Legion territory.
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Feb 21, 2015 04:58
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That's the thing though, you break the back of the Legion, take over the Mojave and keep the NCR from expanding, for now. Possibly you're even friendly towards them! Until you die, they stay back home, without a messed up war to fight or a new region to establish infrastructure in, they might not like it, but they have time to get their poo poo together. Maybe you can work out a deal to transfer ownership before you die, who knows. Either way the yes man ending just feels right, in the short or the long term.
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Feb 21, 2015 04:59
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Rookersh posted:House is an unreliable leader who doesn't care at all about the people under him, only that they worship him for keeping them alive. Actually he specifically says in dialogue that he doesn't want that. quote:Courier: What's to keep you from abusing your power?
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Feb 21, 2015 05:16
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It may come as a surprise to you all, but I think House is a pretty cool guy.
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Feb 21, 2015 05:39
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Fuzz1138 posted:It may come as a surprise to you all, but I think House is a pretty cool guy. Kinda hard not to be when you got Rene Auberjonois voicing you.
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Feb 21, 2015 05:44
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2house2fly posted:Actually he specifically says in dialogue that he doesn't want that. And yet he's programmed his bombastic obituary to be played throughout New Vegas in the event of his passing, decrying the tragic loss of an ubermensch. Clearly the hallmark of a humble autocrat. I never got the sense that House was libertarian from altruism; rather, he's somewhat of a Dr Manhattan figure. He's become so advanced and alien that he views flesh-and-blood humans as tools and not brethren. Clearly you wouldn't want your hammer to spend its time praising your name rather than driving in the nails..
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Feb 21, 2015 05:54
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People point out how House will totally just let the Mojave do its thing, but that's a double-edged sword IMO. Look what the Omertas got up to when he took his eyes off them for a second. Also, his tax rate on the locals on the Strip is 50%, which bears pointing out when people bring up the NCR's taxation (which isn't great either, but if you consider how rich the NCR is, it still probably equates to a very desirable standard of living for the wasteland.)
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Feb 21, 2015 05:58
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If you go for an Independent Vegas, one of the endings has Hanlon denouncing Lee Oliver's disastrous Mojave Campaign and becoming Senator of Redding, so there's already some political pushback happening in the NCR.
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Feb 21, 2015 06:07
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Excelzior posted:And yet he's programmed his bombastic obituary to be played throughout New Vegas in the event of his passing, decrying the tragic loss of an ubermensch. Clearly the hallmark of a humble autocrat. It's cool, I view him as a resource for my courier to use. There's a lot of knowledge in there.
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Feb 21, 2015 06:20
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Arcsquad12 posted:If you go for an Independent Vegas, one of the endings has Hanlon denouncing Lee Oliver's disastrous Mojave Campaign and becoming Senator of Redding, so there's already some political pushback happening in the NCR. Soon to be President Hanlon.
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Feb 21, 2015 06:32
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Excelzior posted:And yet he's programmed his bombastic obituary to be played throughout New Vegas in the event of his passing, decrying the tragic loss of an ubermensch. Clearly the hallmark of a humble autocrat.
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Feb 21, 2015 07:20
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Rookersh posted:And yet whats better? Why does there need to be a ruling power at all though?
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Feb 21, 2015 08:04
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Pwnstar posted:Why does there need to be a ruling power at all though? Everywhere in the Fallout universe without a ruling power is ultra-mega-misery so that would be one reason.
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Feb 21, 2015 08:07
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Pwnstar posted:Why does there need to be a ruling power at all though?
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Feb 21, 2015 08:34
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But Bakunin said Mankind need not be governed.
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Feb 21, 2015 08:48
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Paracelsus posted:Organization to resist predation. If the people have to be constantly worried about being killed or even just having their crops taken by bandits, then accumulation of resources can't happen and living standards remain stuck at meager subsistence farming, with any disruptions in the food supply likely leading directly to mass die-offs. Creating a standing force to deter, intercept, or punish bandits requires at least some centralization of resources and direction. Both Westside and North Vegas, in game, pulled it off just fine. Their biggest threats are the 'ruling powers' in question. Nevermind, say, the Boomers. They're backwards and twisted, but they do all right for themselves without a faraway state holding their hand.
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Feb 21, 2015 09:05
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Utgardaloki posted:Both Westside and North Vegas, in game, pulled it off just fine. Their biggest threats are the 'ruling powers' in question. quote:Nevermind, say, the Boomers. They're backwards and twisted, but they do all right for themselves without a faraway state holding their hand.
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Feb 21, 2015 09:16
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I do find it interesting how different my reaction to most things in the game seems to be from the average reaction around these parts. Like, when I first played the game, I met the Boomers and I was like "man, these guys are the coolest!" Then my friend introduces me to this thread and everyone's like "the Boomers are psychopaths" and "I hate those assholes and I kill them every time." 
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Feb 21, 2015 09:25
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Fuzz1138 posted:I do find it interesting how different my reaction to most things in the game seems to be from the average reaction around these parts.
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Feb 21, 2015 09:59
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Paracelsus posted:The Boomers and the BoS are the only places in the Mojave that provide a reasonably safe environment in which kids can go to school instead of chasing rats for food and/or promoting shops by annoying passersby re: stuff they're not even allowed to sell. Goons are dumb and make snap judgments they never back down from. The idea that the BoS is a safe place to raise children is kinda funny as their are no children there because they're a bunch of paranoid isolationists in such lockdown that they are just dying out. They murder people just because they get close to their shelter and their lives still revolve around gathering weaponry. Even outside of that particular group the BoS aren't exactly good guys; they believe that all technology belongs to them and are willing to kill whoever to get it. The boomers are a militaristic group that fetishize their weaponry, although they at least seem more open minded about letting outsiders join them.. I don't really remember all that much else about the boomers themselves. Actually on that note, one of the only other places where children seem to be well taken care of is with the Legion as you can see them playing/training at the Fort. Garrand fucked around with this message at 10:49 on Feb 21, 2015 |
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Feb 21, 2015 10:45
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Fuzz1138 posted:I do find it interesting how different my reaction to most things in the game seems to be from the average reaction around these parts. I like the Boomers but I disliked how they attempted to murder me with artillery fire. The BoS are cool because they wear robes and have power armour but they're also humongous assholes in every way (except in Fallout 3, because Fallout 3 wasn't very well written). They've always been paranoid tech fetishists with big egos. They're basically doomed as soon as a somewhat stable society pops up that doesn't let them just take whatever they want.
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Feb 21, 2015 10:56
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Garrand posted:The idea that the BoS is a safe place to raise children is kinda funny as their are no children there because they're a bunch of paranoid isolationists in such lockdown that they are just dying out. They murder people just because they get close to their shelter and their lives still revolve around gathering weaponry. Even outside of that particular group the BoS aren't exactly good guys; they believe that all technology belongs to them and are willing to kill whoever to get it. The Boomers base their identity entirely on the literal and ongoing genocide of Mojave "natives". If there's one faction that deserves to be wiped out, it's them.
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Feb 21, 2015 11:04
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Rookersh posted:Wild Card? Great, the region knows peace for 30/40/50/60ish years. Then what happens when the Courier dies? You aren't forming a new nation state in that time, and the region isn't going to be pacified in one mans lifetime. It also has the same problem House does, while you may be a benevolent ruler who only wants the people of the Mojave to live their own lives, you can't guarantee your successor will. And that's assuming you will be able to maintain control over your little army of robots. You basically just carve out a rock for yourself to retire in, yet once you die everything will reset to the status quo/NCR wanting the Mojave/new bandit tribes pushing west. Fallout IV: New New Vegas. The original Courier has to find a new person to take over while a bigger threat emerges from the wasteland.
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Feb 21, 2015 12:20
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2house2fly posted:They don't just tell the super mutants to gently caress off, they hire mercenaries to harass them. A time-honoured tactic they used back in Fallout 2! What quest are you referring to? I don't remember them harrassing anyone in Fallout 2. Garrand posted:The boomers are a militaristic group that fetishize their weaponry, although they at least seem more open minded about letting outsiders join them.. I don't really remember all that much else about the boomers themselves. Open to outsiders seems like a bit of a stretch, considering they tend to shoot at anyone who comes too close to their area.
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Feb 21, 2015 12:48
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It makes zero sense that the police pistol from Dead Money is a single action. Any idea of a mod that makes it double action?
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Feb 21, 2015 14:12
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Paracelsus posted:My impression of the NCR (admittedly highly informed by my idea of NV as primarily about the use of symbols and the formation of individual and group identity) is
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Feb 21, 2015 14:29
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Utgardaloki posted:Nevermind, say, the Boomers. They're backwards and twisted, but they do all right for themselves without a faraway state holding their hand. The Boomers are ruled by Pearl. Samuel Clemens posted:What quest are you referring to? I don't remember them harrassing anyone in Fallout 2. Vault City was being attacked by "raiders" who were actually hired by Bishop of New Reno to make them more open to being annexed by the NCR. Maybe that was a restored content quest though, now that I think about it. Samuel Clemens posted:Open to outsiders seems like a bit of a stretch, considering they tend to shoot at anyone who comes too close to their area. Not now that the Courier has shown them that outsiders are cool!
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Feb 21, 2015 15:53
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Xander77 posted:So basically Caesar was right, and the NCR is the Roman Republic slightly post-Marius? Well of course Caesar would think of the NCR as a cult of personality - that's what he's running himself.
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Feb 21, 2015 16:34
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StandardVC10 posted:Well of course Caesar would think of the NCR as a cult of personality - that's what he's running himself. Maybe he just has an appreciation for 1980s hits. Though an 50-year reign isn't much of a democracy as we figure it.
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Feb 21, 2015 16:56
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Garrand posted:The idea that the BoS is a safe place to raise children is kinda funny as their are no children there because they're a bunch of paranoid isolationists in such lockdown that they are just dying out. quote:I don't really remember all that much else about the boomers themselves. steinrokkan posted:The Boomers base their identity entirely on the literal and ongoing genocide of Mojave "natives". If there's one faction that deserves to be wiped out, it's them. Xander77 posted:So basically Caesar was right, and the NCR is the Roman Republic slightly post-Marius?
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Feb 21, 2015 18:31
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Paracelsus posted:There's a school in the BoS base where you can see the younger members taking classes. IIRC the lockdown had been only for the last few years, so it's not the actual reason they're declining in numbers. The museum specifically describes that they spent the first period of their post-Vault history roaming the wastes, killing everybody they could find. When they started taking casualties, they fortified themselves in the military base they found. Their intention behind the bomber is to resume their campaign with renewed impunity. That's what they proudly tell you if you ask them. Caesar's mangling of Hegel was the most cringe-worthy part of NV for me, please don't bring poor old Nietzsche to the equation.
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Feb 21, 2015 19:18
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Paracelsus posted:They don't really seem to give a poo poo about anyone who doesn't approach their land. It's not much of a genocide if the victims have to come to you rather than you going to them. Even when they get the B-29 back up and running, they don't go bombing anybody aside from at the Dam.
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Feb 21, 2015 19:18
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Seashell Salesman posted:They definitely imply that they want to just go out and bomb everyone whenever they talk about the plane and the simulators. I'd hazard a guess that they don't show the bombing in the game because it would be a bunch of effort to do in the engine and to generate the assets for the scripted event, the finished plane/animations, the effects for the bombs, sounds, etc. Not to mention that it wouldn't add much at all gameplay-wise. They show the bomber attacking the Hoover Dam. The reason we don't see any more of it is because that's the first operation of the repaired bomber, and afterwards the game ends.
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Feb 21, 2015 19:21
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In general the Boomers' endings tend towards them becoming friendlier and more willing to engage with the outside world, which suggests to me that they maybe don't then take their restored WW2 bomber and fly around raining flaming death on their new friends.
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Feb 21, 2015 19:27
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steinrokkan posted:They show the bomber attacking the Hoover Dam. Yeah, they definitely do as that is one of my favorite parts of the Hoover Dam ending sequence ever since the very first time I beat the game.
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Feb 21, 2015 19:31
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2house2fly posted:In general the Boomers' endings tend towards them becoming friendlier and more willing to engage with the outside world, which suggests to me that they maybe don't then take their restored WW2 bomber and fly around raining flaming death on their new friends. Of course, the funny thing is that if you DON'T restore the bomber, they get constantly attacked (unless House wins).
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Feb 21, 2015 19:36
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steinrokkan posted:They show the bomber attacking the Hoover Dam. The reason we don't see any more of it is because that's the first operation of the repaired bomber, and afterwards the game ends. There's no reason why that should have been the first time they used it. I don't remember the game even saying it was the first time they used it.
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Feb 21, 2015 19:43
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Seashell Salesman posted:There's no reason why that should have been the first time they used it. I don't remember the game even saying it was the first time they used it. If you visit the base any time before the final mission, there's the bomber still in refit.
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Feb 21, 2015 19:47
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steinrokkan posted:If you visit the base any time before the final mission, there's the bomber still in refit.
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Feb 21, 2015 20:44
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steinrokkan posted:The museum specifically describes that they spent the first period of their post-Vault history roaming the wastes, killing everybody they could find. quote:Their intention behind the bomber is to resume their campaign with renewed impunity. That's what they proudly tell you if you ask them.
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Feb 21, 2015 20:57
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