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Quidam Viator posted:http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/wonkblog/wp/2014/09/29/our-infant-mortality-rate-is-a-national-embarrassment/ Some civilized country has to be last.
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Feb 22, 2015 20:01
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Quidam Viator posted:The first thing the last dude did was to say that my idea ends up with either Franco for 40 years or Hitler and a nuclear exchange. I say you're headed for that type of poo poo in the long term if you don't get it out of your system in the short term. So wsa Curtis LeMay right in the '60's when he said we needed to first-strike nuke the Soviets because otherwise it was just going to happen on their terms later?
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Feb 22, 2015 20:01
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Quidam Viator posted:Now, in an essay of 300 words or less, explain how our current Congress, Judicial Branch, and Executive will change this embarrassing political fact. You don't have ten thousand dollars, do you?
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Feb 22, 2015 20:03
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Nintendo Kid posted:It's interesting that someone who teaches Roman would think accelerationism works and doesn't lead to several hundred years of suck. To do so would be to believe in the completely specious idea that our situation resembles that of the Romans 2,000 loving years ago. NOTHING takes several hundred years anymore. The minute people do stupid poo poo, it instantly shows up on the internet. In fact, the very problem of the Roman Empire was a pathetic clinging to the vestigial institutions of the Republic, even in show, despite the total reorganization of power. This is a VERY POWERFUL metaphor for the current state of American governance: We have these assholes cosplaying 18th century Americans, acting like a return to the past is the solution for the future, and nearly 50% of the American population believes this is just and right. As a teacher of ancient cultures and languages, I believe accelerationism is about the one thing that everyone is afraid to try. But maybe you're a better classics scholar than I; I'll always admit that I could be wrong. Demonstrate to me accelerationist movements in ancient Greece and Rome that are actually analogous to our current situation.
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Feb 22, 2015 20:08
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Quidam Viator posted:NOTHING takes several hundred years anymore. Full civil rights for black people and women still ain't done after 200+ years of America, so you're wrong as hell. Quidam Viator posted:Demonstrate to me accelerationist movements in ancient Greece and Rome that are actually analogous to our current situation. The entire crisis of the third century was an, perhaps unintentionally, accelerationist era. And so was most of the western empire's history after. Nintendo Kid fucked around with this message at 20:12 on Feb 22, 2015 |
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Feb 22, 2015 20:10
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Eschers Basement posted:So wsa Curtis LeMay right in the '60's when he said we needed to first-strike nuke the Soviets because otherwise it was just going to happen on their terms later? No, I haven't made a single argument defending jingoistic foreign policy. I hate jingoistic foreign policy, the idea that we can just nuke other countries, and that fixes things. But you know what? Some almost 50% of the American population is voting for people who believe this, and they have no shame. My goal is for them to learn shame. Shame that they ever thought using nuclear weapons would bring peace. And I don't think Democrats in the current system have any leverage whatsoever; they can't convince Republicans of a GOD. drat. THING. They must approach the abyss themselves and repent of their idiocy. And yes, it's a gamble, but my contention is that if we proceed on our steady course right now, you're looking at a globally-destroyed ecosystem, absolute scarcity, and the annihilation of the human race if you JUST KEEP DOING WHAT YOU'RE DOING. So, maybe you can agree with Gnarlyhotep, and think about doing something different.
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Feb 22, 2015 20:14
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Quidam Viator posted:And yes, it's a gamble, but my contention is that if we proceed on our steady course right now, you're looking at a globally-destroyed ecosystem, absolute scarcity, and the annihilation of the human race if you JUST KEEP DOING WHAT YOU'RE DOING. Which, again, is the exact argument LeMay used for why we needed to nuke Russia. But he was obviously wrong and you're obvious right, correct? ETA: And your whole "YOU CAN'T KEEP TRYING THE SAME THING" - you do realize that Democrats have controlled Congress and the Presidency for exactly 4 of the last thirty-two years, right? It's amazing how leftists keep insisting that Democrats can't do a thing and will never do a thing when they've nearly always been forced into power-sharing agreements for the last thirty years Eschers Basement fucked around with this message at 20:22 on Feb 22, 2015 |
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Feb 22, 2015 20:19
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Quidam Viator posted:No, I haven't made a single argument defending jingoistic foreign policy. I hate jingoistic foreign policy, the idea that we can just nuke other countries, and that fixes things. But you know what? Some almost 50% of the American population is voting for people who believe this, and they have no shame. So wait, you're going to "teach them shame" by murdering them with a fascist dictatorship and murdering whoever is left with a communist dictatorship?
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Feb 22, 2015 20:20
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Nintendo Kid posted:Full civil rights for black people and women still ain't done after 200+ years of America, so you're wrong as hell. And you know what's really lovely about this accelerationist idea? It's TOTALLY out of context before Marx. Everything, from human rights, to true capitalism, occur LONG after the Roman Republic and Empire have fallen. You took the bait. There's nothing about our pursuit of universal human rights or pursuit of equal justice under the law that has anything to do with Ancient Rome. Their minds literally couldn't hold the concepts. There's nothing wrong I'm saying about this current moment in history; we may use the ancients as guides, but we must NEVER fall into the other minds trap that claims their problems and solutions have any direct relation to ours.
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Feb 22, 2015 20:23
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Quidam Viator posted:My goal is for them to learn shame. Shame that they ever thought using nuclear weapons would bring peace. Only using conventional weapons can bring peace.
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Feb 22, 2015 20:23
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Quidam Viator posted:And you know what's really lovely about this accelerationist idea? It's TOTALLY out of context before Marx. Everything, from human rights, to true capitalism, occur LONG after the Roman Republic and Empire have fallen. Sorry dude I know you're mad that no one like latin anymore, but accelerationism is inherently incapable of working. It's best case scenario is that in the near-term (50 years) you get back to where you started from.
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Feb 22, 2015 20:25
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Dr. Tough posted:So wait, you're going to "teach them shame" by murdering them with a fascist dictatorship and murdering whoever is left with a communist dictatorship? No, my vision is very different. Here's a sketch: We form a PAC called "Vote Republican to Destroy America". Then, in a very public fashion, we promote, vote for, and make very clear that we are voting for Republicans because the only conclusion that can be drawn from their policies is that we should rape America, disenfranchise minorities, and ruin the planet. We make sure it is absolutely clear that we are only campaigning for and voting for Republicans because we believe they are cowards; they claim their policy would work if only Democrats didn't ruin everything. So, we create a situation where they can't claim they're the victim, and we tell them it's time to put up or shut up. Meanwhile, we predict exactly the kinds of atrocities we expect Republicans to enact if they're given power. They're going to drag us back into the 19th century, destroy our environment, persecute minorites, disenfranchise, destroy public education, etc. We make all of this public. I don't believe they have the power to restrain their own policies. They make life terrible for every one in the world, and we keep voting for them until the nation and the world finally realize that it actually is GOP policy that is wrong and destructive. What I'm gambling on then is literally just the human urge for self-preservation. Faced with a self-created armageddon, the hope is that sufficient people will turn away from the abyss that will make them extinct. It's a pipe dream, sure. There are a million ways it could turn out wrong. But I'm betting my account on the fact that literally NOBODY in this thread has a practical, workable solution for preventing this chaos by voting Democratic. You have no strong policies, no strong leaders, you're owned by the corporations as much as the GOP, and you have no uniting narrative. I'm saying anything has to be better than letting everyone die slowly as you piss away the little time we have by trying to work within the system. Quidam Viator fucked around with this message at 20:37 on Feb 22, 2015 |
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Feb 22, 2015 20:33
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Quidam Viator posted:My goal is for them to learn shame. Shame that they ever thought using nuclear weapons would bring peace. And I don't think Democrats in the current system have any leverage whatsoever; they can't convince Republicans of a GOD. drat. THING. Also, dude, you have serious anger issues about people not agreeing with you, which makes your accelerationism seem less of a well-thought out platform and move of something you should describe while stroking a cat and staring into a video camera.
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Feb 22, 2015 20:35
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Quidam Viator posted:People like you who are still committed to the partisan fight despite what's happened in the past 35 years are going to exist, and your smug lecturing about the terrible, world-changing events I believe we should call in to being is condescending. The kind of complete absence from pain and want and revolution and bloodshed and childhood disease and suffering that you have experienced as a millennial American is a fluke, and all the work of the early 20th century that made it possible has been dismantled while you've allowed 35 years of partisan reindeer games. But you believe if you keep on going the same way you always have, that somehow, you're going to get a different result. And because I genuinely believe and actively promote destabilizing your fragile, rickety-rear end system, which you still think IS WORKING JUST FINE, you get all huffy and act like I'm the rear end in a top hat.] Okay but you got your collapse. The corporations and their ball-licking politicians got to run the country however they pleased, destroyed everything, and we did get starvation and struggle and the beginnings of a new system. And it took exactly one generation for the kids of the people who built that system to think "Oh I guess I just earned all this on hard work and gumption, but the poors are holding me back" and they voted for Nixon and Reagan because they promised to dismantle everything. If your plan for social change is for it to come out of misery and starvation and desperation, then what keeps it from being rolled back once the stick of depression and ruin is gone? Apparently, nothing.
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Feb 22, 2015 20:36
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Quidam Viator posted:No, my vision is very different. Here's a sketch: We form a PAC called "Vote Republican to Destroy America". Then, in a very public fashion, we promote, vote for, and make very clear that we are voting for Republicans because the only conclusion that can be drawn from their policies is that we should rape America, disenfranchise minorities, and ruin the planet. We make sure it is absolutely clear that we are only campaigning for and voting for Republicans because we believe they are cowards; they claim their policy would work if only Democrats didn't ruin everything. So, we create a situation where they can't claim they're the victim, and we tell them it's time to put up or shut up. Oh I don't know, I'd say that the current system is probably better than a reactionary dystopia or communism. I'm also more than a little disturbed that you want to destroy the country because some of it's inhabitants have political beliefs that you don't like.
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Feb 22, 2015 20:38
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Quidam Viator posted:.... Please let us know what policies Obama should be getting the Republican Congress to pass.
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Feb 22, 2015 20:38
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VitalSigns posted:Okay but you got your collapse. The corporations and their ball-licking politicians got to run the country however they pleased, destroyed everything, and we did get starvation and struggle and the beginnings of a new system. And yet, when asked if their nation is collapsing, how many conservative voters right now would answer yes because Obama is the president, not because they are destitute, deprived of rights, and tacitly contributing to their own destruction? Your comment about how much can change in one generation serves MY argument, not yours; given misery, starvation, and depression, along with a consistent message that we PROMISED these things would happen if you kept on choosing Republicans, eventually we kill the bad ideas. The hope is that there's enough of the earth and the human population left to rebuild on sound ideologies, because my entire premise is that it's possible to kill a virulent ideology by showing what happens when it takes control.
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Feb 22, 2015 20:43
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Quidam Viator posted:my entire premise is that it's possible to kill a virulent ideology by showing what happens when it takes control. The virulent ideology is accelerationism.
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Feb 22, 2015 20:44
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Quidam Viator posted:And yet, when asked if their nation is collapsing, how many conservative voters right now would answer yes because Obama is the president, not because they are destitute, deprived of rights, and tacitly contributing to their own destruction? That's not a sign of a nation collapsing, that's a sign of a nation being lovely to live in. Those are wholly separate things.
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Feb 22, 2015 20:44
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Quidam Viator posted:And yet, when asked if their nation is collapsing, how many conservative voters right now would answer yes because Obama is the president, not because they are destitute, deprived of rights, and tacitly contributing to their own destruction? Your comment about how much can change in one generation serves MY argument, not yours; given misery, starvation, and depression, along with a consistent message that we PROMISED these things would happen if you kept on choosing Republicans, eventually we kill the bad ideas. The hope is that there's enough of the earth and the human population left to rebuild on sound ideologies, because my entire premise is that it's possible to kill a virulent ideology by showing what happens when it takes control. But that happened already. And it didn't work because once the effects of the virulent ideology were blunted by progressives, people forgot in less than 30 years. Also, since you believe in AGW, why on earth would you want to give Republicans free reign when the damage being done to the earth is probably irreversible? If that's your major concern, then giving Republicans 20 years to completely ruin the climate and push the positive feedback loops that scientists are warning about should be the last thing you'd want. Our only hope is to reduce carbon emissions now, not go "haha, well in 20 years when we're even more hosed and millions of people are starving, then they'll all see I was right!  "
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Feb 22, 2015 20:49
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As I get older, I tend to resign myself to voting for the "lesser of two evils" vote for Supreme Court nominations alone. I'm also learning that local politics really are where the change and the action is at but that's not so easy to penetrate either since the "who knows who" network is so much tighter.
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Feb 22, 2015 20:50
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Quidam Viator posted:And yet, when asked if their nation is collapsing, how many conservative voters right now would answer yes because Obama is the president, not because they are destitute, deprived of rights, and tacitly contributing to their own destruction? Your comment about how much can change in one generation serves MY argument, not yours; given misery, starvation, and depression, along with a consistent message that we PROMISED these things would happen if you kept on choosing Republicans, eventually we kill the bad ideas. The hope is that there's enough of the earth and the human population left to rebuild on sound ideologies, because my entire premise is that it's possible to kill a virulent ideology by showing what happens when it takes control. By showing people how awful Republicans are and giving them free reign to screw people, no one will vote for them ever again. This is why Governor Sam Brownback was defeated in his 2014 reelection campaign.
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Feb 22, 2015 20:51
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Quidam Viator posted:No, my vision is very different. Here's a sketch: We form a PAC called "Vote Republican to Destroy America". Then, in a very public fashion, we promote, vote for, and make very clear that we are voting for Republicans because the only conclusion that can be drawn from their policies is that we should rape America, disenfranchise minorities, and ruin the planet. We make sure it is absolutely clear that we are only campaigning for and voting for Republicans because we believe they are cowards; they claim their policy would work if only Democrats didn't ruin everything. So, we create a situation where they can't claim they're the victim, and we tell them it's time to put up or shut up. They could make the same sensationalist claims of imminent destruction with regards to liberal policies. If you want to get into their accelerationist minds it needs to be more subtle. A party platform based on leaving the weak behind to let the strong thrive would be much more believable. The every man for him self PAC, for an America where we can't let the weakest, poorest and most unfortunate drag us down.
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Feb 22, 2015 20:52
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Witnessing the catastrophic failure of fascism has not killed it as an ideology. Neither has the failure of Marxism-Leninism, which while not relevant in many countries still exists in insurgencies that do real harm in the name of ideological purity. Even assuming you're able to kill the "bad ideas" or relegate them to the dust bin of history, the historical examples show that what replaces it does not necessarily mean greater change than reform might bring. Germany did not suddenly become more socially or humanely aware because of its experience with fascism, nor did Italy. Other factors are at play, and the example of Russia is a great example of how a crippled country will often find itself falling back into previous, reactionary modes that have been demonstrably proven a failure. For the same reason you denigrate people for voting as if it doesn't matter, agitation for acceleration rarely matters in any great way. The anarchists of the early 20th century who turned to violence did nothing to accelerate the circumstances around them, those circumstances were outside their control. It's not a matter of purely historical forces, but about many individuals acting and developing in patterns. As an individual, it's about who you organize and involve yourself with that will make change. I mean, I basically agree that elections are mainly bought at this point, but they still have to buy my vote to win. That's why, as people have continually said, the best thing you can do is organize and realize you gotta build a coalition, and that means sacrificing ideological purity for compromise with people that you agree with on the issues you feel ultimately matter most.
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Feb 22, 2015 20:57
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Quidam Viator posted:And yet, when asked if their nation is collapsing, how many conservative voters right now would answer yes because Obama is the president, not because they are destitute, deprived of rights, and tacitly contributing to their own destruction? Your comment about how much can change in one generation serves MY argument, not yours; given misery, starvation, and depression, along with a consistent message that we PROMISED these things would happen if you kept on choosing Republicans, eventually we kill the bad ideas. The hope is that there's enough of the earth and the human population left to rebuild on sound ideologies, because my entire premise is that it's possible to kill a virulent ideology by showing what happens when it takes control. Okay, dude, go read about Right Wing Authoritarianism. Guess what? They already think the nation is collapsing. They already think there's misery and depression, but they think it's because America has wandered away from its core, authoritarian, Christian values. And they aren't swayed by silly thing like "facts" - they are perfectly happy to hold contradictory ideas and ignore all evidence unless it supports their core convictions that their parents were right and nothing should ever change. Go read the Freep thread. Go read the reactions to the '12 election. Go read about the '08 financial collapse. These aren't people who are going to be challenged by the failure of their ideas. Every failure will be proof of internal enemies or that their current leaders are insufficiently pure. You're sure you're going to push them over the brink, but there's no evidence that there's a brink to push them over. "Oh, but the mainstream will be swayed" you say as all news channels parrot Fox News to stay in the good graces of the new Republican overlords. "Surely the downtrodden will now rise" you say as the prison-industrial complex is expanded to include all inner cities by default. "Eventually, they will tire and we will strike" you say as the government develops new pain rays and taser rifles to react to all dissent. "At least I will always know I was right" you will smugly think in your old age as you read another news article about a major politician, recently disgraced, being discovered to be a homosexual and sent to a 'work' camp. Good for you! Gold star!
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Feb 22, 2015 21:01
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VitalSigns posted:But that happened already. And it didn't work because once the effects of the virulent ideology were blunted by progressives, people forgot in less than 30 years. I don't understand your first sentence, but would like to. What are you talking about? As for the second paragraph, I believe that Republicans have been carefully manipulated into believing that their policies will ACTUALLY PRODUCE GOOD RESULTS, and that the only reason terrible things happen is because things were too liberal, not conservative enough. Those positive emissions loops are already happening, and I believe that even if my accelerationst policy was never implemented, that we will all feel the effects within our lifetimes. The hope would be that GOP policy would be so destructive, and produce such vast suffering, that it would finally put people against the wall, and make them realize that their own beliefs, votes, and practices are killing their own families. Give me ONE viable alternative outcome. Right now, if we play the same game we're playing, we're looking at a significant possibility after two terms of Obama that a Republican gets elected, and there's a substantial chance that he gets a Republican House and Senate as well; not a guarantee, but a good chance. NOW, you tell me: what's the difference between this happening when we're fighting tooth and nail against it, and when we go into it saying "We believe the Republicans will destroy the country in ways x, y, and z if they win, and then the country is ruined? My argument is that if we call Republican policy what it is, and remove their ability to claim victim status, then humanity will either have to reject the terrible ideas or die. If we don't interfere that way, they can STILL cling to the idea that it was Democratic opposition that stopped their perfectly good policies, and THAT's why we're all underwater, irradiated, starving, and at war. Which one of those two sounds better to you? Or is there some alternative I'm missing? The biggest thing I'm noticing is that not a single god drat one of you have a viable alternate path that would lead to a defeat of Republican principles and the saving of the world as a whole from the effects of human depredation.
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Feb 22, 2015 21:04
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Juvenalian.Satyr posted:The anarchists of the early 20th century who turned to violence did nothing to accelerate the circumstances around them, those circumstances were outside their control. It's not a matter of purely historical forces, but about many individuals acting and developing in patterns. As an individual, it's about who you organize and involve yourself with that will make change. One could argue that Leon Czolgolz was a very successful accelerationist, but only because he shot the right conservative and let the right progressive take over. Of course, to Quidam, his action was actually a complete failure because it allowed the existing system to reform and continue rather than be torn down and immediately become perfect full communism.
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Feb 22, 2015 21:04
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Quidam Viator posted:Which one of those two sounds better to you? Or is there some alternative I'm missing? The biggest thing I'm noticing is that not a single god drat one of you have a viable alternate path that would lead to a defeat of Republican principles and the saving of the world as a whole from the effects of human depredation. I do, it's called having a Democratic President and a loving Democratic Congress at the same time. Let me ask you this: if Democrats are the same as Republicans, and it doesn't matter at all which you vote for, why is voting for straight-ticket Republicanism is any more accelerationist than voting straight-ticket Democrats?
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Feb 22, 2015 21:07
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Eschers Basement posted:Go read the Freep thread Don't do this, anyone
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Feb 22, 2015 21:08
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forbidden lesbian posted:Don't do this, anyone Truth.
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Feb 22, 2015 21:10
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Eschers Basement posted:I do, it's called having a Democratic President and a loving Democratic Congress at the same time. You're dead on! I could pull this poo poo in the other direction, without any distinct policy difference. The Democratic party is decisively NOT GOOD, and just as much responsible for the death of America as the Republicans. They're just as beholden to corporate interests, and just as disconnected from doing the kinds of things that would actually help the human race survive the upcoming challenges. HOWEVER, the decision to push Republicans is made off of a few very basic observations: 1. The Republican base is far more authoritarian. They are far less like Gnarlyhotep, who resembles a lot of young democrats in being disillusioned and being open to the idea of doing something crazy, like voting against their momentary interests to create long-term, radical change. 2. The GOP wins the race for having the most destructive, short-sighted, and terrifying platform. They can do the most damage and be the best negative example if they get their way. 3. Sarcasm and humiliation are key to success; we must be able to predict the terrible overreach of the GOP, promise in advance that they will destroy the country, and then drive home incessantly that they cannot help but destroy the nation. The goal is to create a populace that realizes they have been conned for 35 years. For all that Democrats are poo poo, it was the GOP that came up with the Laffer Curve, trickle-down economics, the S and L scandal, the Iraq war, the Afghan War, deregulation of banks, PRIVATIZING SOCIAL SECURITY BEFORE THE CRASH IN 2008, and a million more terrible ideas. Democrats suck, but not as hard as Republicans. We pick them because they cannot control themselves, and will engage in an orgy of terrible ideas. The goal is to allow them no excuses of Democratic interference; they must fail America publicly, loudly, obviously, completely on their own, and we must have predicted all of it. I have a dream. I have a dream where the Republicans of this nation get their way, and their children die directly because of their poor political choices. And lacking any other scapegoat, they have to blame themselves and their policies, and if they grow a conscience, they'll be forced to repent. And then there's a chance we'll get a nation where people believe it's important to contribute to the common good, that public service is a noble profession, and that we, the people create the wealth of this nation and keep it running, not just a handful of oligarchs. I just think the oligarchs have hosed with your mind SO MUCH that my (admittedly imperfect) plan to contradict them fills you with scorn and terror. You still think you're going to make it out of here without suffering, and that's a great credit to their propaganda. Quidam Viator fucked around with this message at 21:27 on Feb 22, 2015 |
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Feb 22, 2015 21:22
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Quidam Viator posted:I don't understand your first sentence, but would like to. What are you talking about? It was a restatement of my previous post. That conservatives got everything they wanted in the 20's, wrecked the country, and it only took one generation of progressivism and the New Deal showing improvement and Americans started worshiping the golden calf and voting for conservatives. And then it happened again. Republicans got control of all three branches of government, started and lost a couple wars, deregulated everything and wrecked the economy. Democrats got congressional supermajorities and the Presidency, staved off a Great Depression, and just two years later the Republicans were back. What makes you think that if we destroy the country that "this time" people will learn for real instead of going right back to racism and hating the poor once the crisis passes?
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Feb 22, 2015 21:23
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so are y'all saying that the democrats would fix global warming if they had complete political power in the us like, really
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Feb 22, 2015 21:27
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Quidam Viator posted:I have a dream. I have a dream where the Republicans of this nation get their way, and their children die. Cool, dude. You keep telling us how you're not real thrilled about that omelet, but you really really want to crack some eggs.
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Feb 22, 2015 21:29
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V. Illych L. posted:so are y'all saying that the democrats would fix global warming if they had complete political power in the us They wouldn't invade China to stop them from producing CO2, so I guess not.
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Feb 22, 2015 21:30
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No clearly everyone will just spontaneously decide to invest in renewable energy and cap emissions during the Great Depression 2 and endless war with Middleeastasia once we elect Republicans to everything. If there's one thing we know about war and famine, it's that they make humans put long-term environmental policy at top priority,
VitalSigns fucked around with this message at 21:32 on Feb 22, 2015 |
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Feb 22, 2015 21:30
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V. Illych L. posted:so are y'all saying that the democrats would fix global warming if they had complete political power in the us I certainly don't think that. I think the best chance of that is working to try and get more green-friendly candidates elected and that requires the primaries, but I don't hold a lot of hope for it. Pretty sure we're going to see some really awful climate change and only then will people shift to those circumstances. Yet, how does putting reactionaries in power help get us closer to resolving the ecological crises of our day? Frankly we're in the damage control stage of ecological damage right now, and I feel its most crucial to act as much as possible to mitigate the damage we are going to be suffering through. There's a strong awareness of global warming among the Democratic base, and especially in primaries if that base organizes and represents its message the candidates will have to triangulate those interests to get the votes necessary to win the primaries they need. Most importantly, we need to work on getting legislators on this because at this point we need law rather than just executive action. Accelerationism is like taking a poo poo on the flaming pile of refuse we've built. It's not going to do anything but raise a stink. It certainly isn't going to be any better than, assuming the worse, a fig leaf acknowledgement of the issue without action. It could be demonstrably worse as it could dismantle what institutions are regulating our influence on the environment. Environmental issues are my #1 issue as a voter, superseding even education, so I often feel disenfranchised, but that doesn't stop me from getting involved where I can.
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Feb 22, 2015 21:34
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VitalSigns posted:It was a restatement of my previous post. That conservatives got everything they wanted in the 20's, wrecked the country, and it only took one generation of progressivism and the New Deal showing improvement and Americans started worshiping the golden calf and voting for conservatives. OK, I get the context now. Thanks. I think you're making an excellent point about the cyclicity of politics, and that there are many valid comparisons to be made between the Great Depression and the Great Recession. However, while I'll freely admit the hostility that FDR faced when it came to things like packing the Supreme Court, the motherfucker still got elected four times. On some fundamental level, Americans of the 30s and 40s still were able to make rational choices about what was best for them and for their nation. Modern Republicans have bought a line of bullshit about American Exceptionality, America as a Christian nation, the utter worthlessness of all government, a contempt for the kind of all-inclusive social aid that FDR is basically the patron saint of... basically, a collection of terrible ideas completely maladapted for our current time, and they believe: 1. That they are an oppressed minority 2. That if only the Democrats would stop obstructing them, that their policy will lead to the land of milk and honey. My WHOLE motivation in trying to debate accelerationism with DnD (and thank you for tolerating me!) is my sense that it will take gargantuan and radical effort to dissuade the 50% of America that believes these two premises, and that our current tactics are only pushing them more and more into stubborn refusal to change. In the end, my ideas could be wrong. But I'd STILL accept the TOXX and the ban, if a single person, just one of you, could give me a believable solution to fixing the right wing in America before the icecaps melt, the methane clathrates choke the atmosphere, and the economic bubble explodes. I genuinely want to save us all from destruction, and I feel urgency.
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Feb 22, 2015 21:39
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Accelerationism can't work, since most of the time it just entrenches power, and the rest of the time it entrenches power and then makes things suck hard for a long time when it goes away.Quidam Viator posted:But I'd STILL accept the TOXX and the ban, if a single person, just one of you, could give me a believable solution to fixing the right wing in America before the icecaps melt, the methane clathrates choke the atmosphere, and the economic bubble explodes. I genuinely want to save us all from destruction, and I feel urgency. 
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Feb 22, 2015 21:41
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Eschers Basement posted:Cool, dude. You keep telling us how you're not real thrilled about that omelet, but you really really want to crack some eggs. No, I don't want any god drat omelets. I genuinely believe that GOP voters who think they're sitting on their eggs to hatch them are being conned into cracking them for short term gain, and I don't think reasonable debate will change their mind. Please, for the love of all that's holy, propose an alternate plan. I'd love to avoid all needless and in fact ALL suffering. If I had a magic wand that I could wave that would turn every American into a citizen of a united country, dedicated to the well-being, health, ecological and fiscal security of EVERY citizen, I would wave it, take the TOXX, and live life as a happy man. Unfortunately, nobody here has any solutions that take us to that place without a fairy loving godmother.
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Feb 22, 2015 21:43
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