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There's a draconian subrace with limited flight. They're Cha/Dex instead of Cha/Str, but that way you could make a Chaos Sorcerer with Chaos Dunks.
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Feb 19, 2015 16:23
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OneThousandMonkeys posted:Building around Con is an enticing option for certain hybrids and other builds but you really feel it in skills unless your DM barrages your group with Endurance checks. With either the Exploration Mastery or Autohypnosis feats you can roll Nature, Religion or Arcana instead of Endurance, and with the right background and the epic Ring of Tenacious Will you could dump Con altogether. Even if you don't, Exploration Mastery is still probably the best of the ritual mastery feats.
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Feb 19, 2015 18:11
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OneThousandMonkeys posted:Essentially for your character you want one of two arrays. Yeah this is kinda where I'm at with it, too. Aside from minor variations on the ones you've posted, I'm known to use: 17/14/13/12/10/8 I guess what I was actually angling at was, is "Don't put an 8 in CON, DEX, or WIS," a rule other people generally abide by? Cuz I do.
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Feb 19, 2015 18:14
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P.d0t posted:Yeah this is kinda where I'm at with it, too. If you're Cha Primary and your group already has a perceptbot, wisdom's an attractive dump stat. Dex and Con have important things that key off of them (Dex-->Initiative and some feats, Con-->HP) So while you can keep them low, I don't think you can get away with them being sub-10.
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Feb 19, 2015 18:18
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Really Pants posted:There's a draconian subrace with limited flight. They're Cha/Dex instead of Cha/Str, but that way you could make a Chaos Sorcerer with Chaos Dunks. There's another Draconian subrace with limited flight that would probably fit better. Bozak I think? That would be better because it has a magic ability. It's just a general untyped +1 per tier for damage, but then you also wouldn't change your stats. Kurieg posted:If you're Cha Primary and your group already has a perceptbot, wisdom's an attractive dump stat. Dex and Con have important things that key off of them (Dex-->Initiative and some feats, Con-->HP) So while you can keep them low, I don't think you can get away with them being sub-10. Wisdom's also an attractive dump stat if you're planning on taking that one paragon path that lets you replace perception and insight with Charisma. Although I think that requires tiefling so at that point Dexterity is also a decent dump stat because of the feat that makes initiative key off of Charisma.
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Feb 19, 2015 18:18
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The options on dragonborn to turn it into a semi-flying draconian make one of the best races in the game even better.
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Feb 19, 2015 20:12
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P.d0t posted:I guess what I was actually angling at was, is "Don't put an 8 in CON, DEX, or WIS," a rule other people generally abide by? Cuz I do. There isn't any solid rule like this, it depends on what your class is, whether you took the cheese hit points background, and what tier the game is at/going to.
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Feb 19, 2015 20:13
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OneThousandMonkeys posted:There isn't any solid rule like this, it depends on what your class is, whether you took the cheese hit points background, and what tier the game is at/going to. "Base HP off highest stat" should have been the default. Auspicious Birth/Born Under a Bad Sign should have been a feat variant for campaigns without the default HP.
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Feb 19, 2015 20:16
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djw175 posted:Wisdom's also an attractive dump stat if you're planning on taking that one paragon path that lets you replace perception and insight with Charisma. Although I think that requires tiefling so at that point Dexterity is also a decent dump stat because of the feat that makes initiative key off of Charisma. There's a sorcerer feat that lets you use arcana for perception checks, but since your int score is probably only slightly higher than your dex as a Sorcerer it just becomes flavorful but pointless.
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Feb 19, 2015 20:38
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Great for Resourceful Magicians though.
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Feb 19, 2015 21:12
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ProfessorCirno posted:Counterpoint: go Eladrin and just teleport both yourself and your enemies nonstop. Just loving teleportation every single round, probably more then once a round, zapping everything around you through portals. This. Eladrin Knight is loving kicking. If you take the relevant PP your punishment moves the enemy 5 squares, and there's an Arcana utility power (Warp in the Weave) that lets you punish bursts and blasts that include you. It's a very nice build.
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Feb 21, 2015 00:43
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Enemies in this game are too drat complicated. Even with running the actual combat outsourced to a laptop as much as possible I keep forgetting vital traits and reactions. Last night the Invoker blasted a whole bunch of dudes across the battlefield and I didn't notice until a whole round later that they could negate 3 squares of forced movement. I didn't retcon anything and ignored that trait for the rest of the fight, what's done is done, but it did annoy me. I'm gonna keep things really simple from now on and use enemies with a basic attack, a signature attack and as little else as possible. Occasionally a boss enemy who might have more complex powers or maybe one immediate power. Not sure what else I could do - Masterplan has reminders for some stuff but there's only so much screen real estate and it's all competing for my attention.
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Feb 22, 2015 12:53
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The best part is, even the most complex/interesting monsters require complex/interesting terrain or traps/hazards for fights to really be at all meaningful.
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Feb 22, 2015 16:05
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My Lovely Horse posted:Enemies in this game are too drat complicated. Even with running the actual combat outsourced to a laptop as much as possible I keep forgetting vital traits and reactions. Last night the Invoker blasted a whole bunch of dudes across the battlefield and I didn't notice until a whole round later that they could negate 3 squares of forced movement. I didn't retcon anything and ignored that trait for the rest of the fight, what's done is done, but it did annoy me. I'm gonna keep things really simple from now on and use enemies with a basic attack, a signature attack and as little else as possible. Occasionally a boss enemy who might have more complex powers or maybe one immediate power. Not sure what else I could do - Masterplan has reminders for some stuff but there's only so much screen real estate and it's all competing for my attention. My house rule: "trigger: when first bloodied" means "trigger: when I notice that it was bloodied and I forgot to use this trigger" I always forgot those triggers.
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Feb 22, 2015 16:58
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Are there any classes I can suggest that are used to using ranged weapons at melee range? I have a player that keeps trying to turn his character into a character that uses crossbows. His first attempt was with a fighter, his second was with a rogue. I don't know what I should tell him.
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Feb 22, 2015 21:50
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Mordiceius posted:Are there any classes I can suggest that are used to using ranged weapons at melee range?
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Feb 22, 2015 21:52
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Mordiceius posted:Are there any classes I can suggest that are used to using ranged weapons at melee range?
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Feb 22, 2015 21:54
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Virtually all ranged weapon users can find some way to avoid or not care about provoking OAs; most well built/played archer rangers are just as in your face as any melee class, because of Prime/Called shot.
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Feb 22, 2015 22:01
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Mordiceius posted:Are there any classes I can suggest that are used to using ranged weapons at melee range? Monk. It's possible to make a kinda weird rogue who uses crossbows but doesn't go sniper, too. Artful Dodger gets a rather big bonus against OAs, and there's a feat where enemies who miss OAs against you grant combat advantage. Combine with drow and go full gun kata.
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Feb 22, 2015 22:07
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thespaceinvader posted:Virtually all ranged weapon users can find some way to avoid or not care about provoking OAs; most well built/played archer rangers are just as in your face as any melee class, because of Prime/Called shot. This has come up before but we have had a couple ranger players who run them like long-range snipers and it works out either way. If they're far enough out and have the resources to just dance away from incoming enemies, it saves your leader's resources. This sort of develops naturally from ranged characters in melee being counter-intuitive, but both methods work. Mordiceius posted:Are there any classes I can suggest that are used to using ranged weapons at melee range? Crossbow rogues are quite good and with a ranger multiclass can get into Dark Strider, which hooks up well with rogue permastealthing. We have an epic rogue in my group running this build right now. However, this is not ideally a build that is about being in melee, though if your Stealth is high enough and your items are high-enough tier it doesn't really matter.
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Feb 22, 2015 22:16
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Mordiceius posted:Are there any classes I can suggest that are used to using ranged weapons at melee range? Rogues can do it. If he is cool with reskinning, Two Fisted Shooter would let him use a hand crossbow and a melee weapon at the same time, and then you can just fluff it as him shooting at guys in melee range. For something a bit more out there, Staff Expertise lets you make ranged and area attacks without provoking. So he could make a wizard that is fluffed as a fantasy green arrow with a crossbow. If he's not ok with reskinning, the DM could also let him take a custom version of Crossbow Expertise that that replaces the bits about ignoring cover with not provoking. Which given all of the options to mitigate and avoid opportunity attacks while shooting, I don't think that would be game breaking. Edit: Actually the way this is written, it makes it seem like like he tried to make a fighter that used a crossbow. Which would be really weird and not work at all. What role does he want to play? What exactly is the problem or issue that he's having? wallawallawingwang fucked around with this message at 22:45 on Feb 22, 2015 |
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Feb 22, 2015 22:40
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It definitely can work, but you miss out on some options. There's also the potential synergy to consider with defenders. You provoke an OK on your turn, the defender gets a swing, the enemy probably misses, extra hit. Or even better, the leader gives you an RBA, you provoke on HIS turn, the defender gets to swing, you get to use a defensive interrupt to shot too, and the enemy's probably dead before the OA has a chance to connect. There's a problem generally with ranged characters in 4e, both in that they get fewer ad less effective options than melee characters (balanced by easier targetting, but most melee characters have some means to choose their targets well anyway), and in the fact that the game usually rewards sticking together - you get more than 5/tier squares (less for many of the big leader powers and PPs, notably Flame of Hope, War Chanter etc) away from the leader and you're likely to stop benefitting from their abilities, and being in range for their heals - and if a monster breaks away from the pack, you're stranded without support. There's also the note that if you're NOT getting mixed into melee, your allies are going to be taking your share of the hits and running out of resources sooner. I've frequently found myself in the situation where our paragon Battlefield Archer is the last or last but one left standing because he's not soaking enemies and we get overwhelmed. Ranged sniping can work and does have support, but IME you're better off mixing it up.
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Feb 22, 2015 22:45
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For wizards, the charop guides claim the lvl6 utility emerald eye is a must have for illusionists, but I don't see what's so great about it. It's +2 to hit vs which is nice, but it's only for two attacks usually and against a single target. I haven't had much trouble hitting things so far. Am I missing something? Also, I'm wondering: Is there some way (item/feat/something) to get damage dice on an ability that normally doesn't do damage? Mainly to get around the 'must have damage dice' requirement of enlarge spell.
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Feb 22, 2015 22:56
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Mordiceius posted:Are there any classes I can suggest that are used to using ranged weapons at melee range? Any sling-user with Sling Expertise, or a drow with Dexterity 15, a hand crossbow, and Drow Fighting Style. Rangers with the Hunter Fighting Style also get +4 AC vs. OAs that their ranged attacks provoke, and can get a few close-combat powers that don't provoke at all. Seekers with heavy thrown weapons can use some of their powers in melee. Hwurmp fucked around with this message at 23:02 on Feb 22, 2015 |
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Feb 22, 2015 22:59
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The Belgian posted:For wizards, the charop guides claim the lvl6 utility emerald eye is a must have for illusionists, but I don't see what's so great about it. It's +2 to hit vs which is nice, but it's only for two attacks usually and against a single target. I haven't had much trouble hitting things so far. Am I missing something? A couple (Malec-Keth Janissary, in particular) come to mind but they're all eminently arguable. And to be honest, Wizards don't need the boost. I'm not sure why Emerald Eye gets the press it does. Its OK, but I'd far rather have something like Insightful Warning or Warp in the Weave.
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Feb 22, 2015 23:06
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thespaceinvader posted:A couple (Malec-Keth Janissary, in particular) come to mind but they're all eminently arguable. And to be honest, Wizards don't need the boost. Thanks! Yeah, it looks like there are lots of other lvl6 powers that are much better & more fun. Summon iron cohort seems especially cool. Although an encounter power might be more useful. I know wizards don't really need it and wasn't planning to do it, I was just curious if it could be done. Janissary says extra damage, which I think disqualifies it.
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Feb 22, 2015 23:24
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Really Pants posted:Any sling-user with Sling Expertise, or a drow with Dexterity 15, a hand crossbow, and Drow Fighting Style. If you're going to boost defenses against OAs then Artful Dodger rogues can be hard to hit,and the Opportunity Knocks feat grants CA when they miss, though a natural 20 or attack against Fortitude will still hurt. It'll provoke defender punishment though, especially nice if the punishment is also an OA.
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Feb 22, 2015 23:43
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The Belgian posted:Thanks! Yeah, it looks like there are lots of other lvl6 powers that are much better & more fun. Summon iron cohort seems especially cool. Although an encounter power might be more useful. Hence, arguable... Summon Iron Cohort would be great except that you have plenty of defensive interrupts and it doesn't do anything else and costs you a surge if it dies.
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Feb 22, 2015 23:51
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The Belgian posted:For wizards, the charop guides claim the lvl6 utility emerald eye is a must have for illusionists, but I don't see what's so great about it. It's +2 to hit vs which is nice, but it's only for two attacks usually and against a single target. I haven't had much trouble hitting things so far. Am I missing something?
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Feb 22, 2015 23:53
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I forget if Emerald Eye is a daily or per-encounter, because if it's the latter, then it's a fantastic Utility because it has both combat and out-of-combat uses.
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Feb 23, 2015 00:31
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The Belgian posted:For wizards, the charop guides claim the lvl6 utility emerald eye is a must have for illusionists, but I don't see what's so great about it. It's +2 to hit vs which is nice, but it's only for two attacks usually and against a single target. I haven't had much trouble hitting things so far. Am I missing something? dwarf74 posted:Charop guides rightly value accuracy, but they tend to overvalue temporary accuracy boosts. I think wizards have enough good utility powers that it's not so cut and dried. Charop is pretty much focused on the first 1-2 rounds of an encounter, and because a good alpha strike is so effective in 4e a lot is focused on winning init, boosting your to-hit with as many permanent and temporary modifiers as possible, and then unloading all your poo poo on the toughest guys on the field. All that said, a defensive or niche utility might serve you better if the table's not super charopped, or if the dm is adept at playing around with encounters/monsters so an orchestrated alpha strike is less effective.
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Feb 23, 2015 01:18
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ProfessorCirno posted:I forget if Emerald Eye is a daily or per-encounter, because if it's the latter, then it's a fantastic Utility because it has both combat and out-of-combat uses. It's an encounter power, and a minor action. I thought it was pretty good.
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Feb 23, 2015 01:29
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Generic Octopus posted:if the dm is adept at playing around with encounters/monsters so an orchestrated alpha strike is less effective. Is there any generally-accepted wisdom on this? My experience taught me never to have 1 "boss" monster in a fight, always have 2 or 3. And lots of minions.
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Feb 23, 2015 01:35
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P.d0t posted:Is there any generally-accepted wisdom on this? My experience taught me never to have 1 "boss" monster in a fight, always have 2 or 3. And lots of minions. A couple I recall off-hand that we used a lot were staggered release of monsters (waves of enemies basically) and giving the boss lots of buffs until certain conditions were met/minions defeated (favorite one was a vampire dragon thing that had lots of regen and condition immunities that fell off as the party triggered switches around the room that filled the area with sunlight). But yeah pmuch with bosses you almost have to cheat at higher levels (mid-Paragon & up) so they aren't shut down by stuns & dazes & large damage novas if you want them to be truly solo.
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Feb 23, 2015 01:53
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wallawallawingwang posted:Rogues can do it. If he is cool with reskinning, Two Fisted Shooter would let him use a hand crossbow and a melee weapon at the same time, and then you can just fluff it as him shooting at guys in melee range. For something a bit more out there, Staff Expertise lets you make ranged and area attacks without provoking. So he could make a wizard that is fluffed as a fantasy green arrow with a crossbow. If he's not ok with reskinning, the DM could also let him take a custom version of Crossbow Expertise that that replaces the bits about ignoring cover with not provoking. Which given all of the options to mitigate and avoid opportunity attacks while shooting, I don't think that would be game breaking. Yeah, at first he was trying to use fighter that used crossbows, which didn't make sense. He just wanted to be like an agile guy that occasionally double fisted weapons. (We're playing Zeitgeist and he just got wrapped up in the Gunsmith theme). We already have a ranger, so he went with a rogue, which ended up working really well and he really enjoyed it (we came across two-fisted shooter when going through creation). Our party is: dwarven fighter, wild elf ranger, half-elf ardent, changeling warlock, and human rogue. Anyway, today was our first game day. Our group had met once before because they are ALL new to D&D, so we went over rules and mechanics and then I ran us through a few rounds of sample combat just so they could see it in practice. We started on the first Zeitgeist adventure today and we got through act 1. It went a little slow because we would occasionally stop to explain more mechanics or how certain abilities work. By the end, they seems to have a fairly decent grasp of the system. I can't count how many times I would say "Roll and <x> check." and the response would be "Which die do I use for that?" Nonetheless, they seemed to have a loving amazing time through it all. I'm lucky in that I'm playing with five people who are completely new and aren't grognardy or rulemongers. So as a DM, I'm able to play things a bit fast and loose. I also had a great time DMing because it's awesome seeing people play their First Game.
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Feb 23, 2015 03:44
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Two fisted crossbow rogue works pretty well, just make sure you go drow (or let him take a specific drow racial feat, Ruthless Hunter). The common method of going crossbow rogue is to build Wisdom and go sniper. But gently caress that. That's boring. You're dual wielding pistols, you want some GUNKATA. Drow gives access to the feat Ruthless Hunter. This along with the rogue talent Two Fisted Shooter make up the first part of your GUNKATA COMBO - your weapons. Now that you're armed, you hit a snag - you want to fight dudes right in their dumb faces. The key to this is to go for dex/charisma (which I will note drow are fantastic at) and take Artful Dodger. Artful Dodger adds your charisma to your defense against OAs, and that's a good thing, because OAs are what you're going to be intentionally getting. The second half of the GUNKATA COMBO is a rogue-only feat called Opportunity Knocks. Any time you hit an enemy with an OA - or any time they miss you with one - they grant you combat advantage, thus opening up sneak attack. Your main strategy is simple. Run up to the badguy, intentionally draw an OA, then shoot them in their dumb face. As was mentioned above, this works especially well with a more punishment-built defender like, oh say, a fighter, which you happen to have. Your bread and butter early on will be Sly Flourish. Deft Strike is a good secondary at-will (and once you hit paragon, can be used for Shenanigans). The main downside to this is that the vast majority of fantastic rogue powers are melee only. That doesn't mean you'll be bad, just that you'll sorta miss out. On the bright side you are still ranged, so you can also shoot people in their dumb face when you aren't right next to them (just make sure they're granting combat advantage somehow!) I will note upfront: this is not as powerful as the crossbow sniper. But that's ok. It's strong enough in most non-bleeding edge optimized games, and it's way more fun to whirl around badguys and shoot them as they ineffectively swing at you.
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Feb 23, 2015 04:20
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P.d0t posted:Is there any generally-accepted wisdom on this? My experience taught me never to have 1 "boss" monster in a fight, always have 2 or 3. And lots of minions. This is largely just theorizing on my part (Sadly, I've been an awful DM and need to get my IRC 4E game running again, which hit a snag due to my own laziness and some recruitment troubles. So I haven't had a chance to properly put this to the test), but I think that evasive reaction abilities can help a lot of ablating alpha strike strategies. It would probably be a good idea to not always have this be a part of the monster directly, but have a leader or defender type enemy who provides these evasive abilities. Defender role type enemies, applied properly, are probably a pretty decent discouragement to alpha strikes in general, though you have to strike a careful balance that they don't turn the fight into a big slog either. Don't deny them that insta-gib, but make them work for the situation where they can actually apply it, rather than being able to do so immediately.
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Feb 23, 2015 04:45
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Generic Octopus posted:A couple I recall off-hand that we used a lot were staggered release of monsters (waves of enemies basically) and giving the boss lots of buffs until certain conditions were met/minions defeated (favorite one was a vampire dragon thing that had lots of regen and condition immunities that fell off as the party triggered switches around the room that filled the area with sunlight). You might actually be able to take a cue from MMOs in regards to solos and things like stuns. Let them work but have diminishing returns with successive applications. Throw in some stuff that you can interrupt or generally mitigate with such abilities and that you REALLY want to and that'll force some more strategic thought about when to throw down your disabling conditions.
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Feb 23, 2015 04:48
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ProfessorCirno posted:Two fisted crossbow rogue works pretty well, just make sure you go drow (or let him take a specific drow racial feat, Ruthless Hunter). Thanks for this awesome idea. I'll pass it along to the player and see what he thinks. We aren't playing a bleeding edge optimized game as these are all newbie players. Since this is all their first time playing a game, I'm not planning on being super punishing or anything. We're more for fun than SUPER OPTIMIZED CHALLENGE. EDIT: Also, the best part of today's game was when our ranger rushed up the stairwells to the main deck of a ship to let them know that the ship was going to sink. Unfortunately, the band was playing loud anthems for the king so no one could make out what he was saying over the music so he started grabbing instruments and smashing them on the deck until people stopped playing. Mordiceius fucked around with this message at 06:57 on Feb 23, 2015 |
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Feb 23, 2015 06:54
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In addition to simpler monsters I think I'm also gonna go with averaging monster damage for a while and see how that works out. Speed gain will probably be negligible, but maybe it helps if I don't have to devote brainspace to first-grade maths at random intervals while six people wait for the result. 
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Feb 23, 2015 20:17
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