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It bears keeping in mind that XCom was not designed for the ironman experience, and the ironman experience wasn't forced onto everyone who played XCom. As well, the (soft) failure state of aliens out-teching what basic rookies could deal with meant that one of the core-most parts of the mythical XCom experience was missing. In the original there was a parade of bodies. Largely because you could AFFORD to leave a trail of bodies. One rookie was just like any other, and could be swapped in or out of the skyranger without a second thought. Which meant the player noticed the handful that stuck around. The few who survived long enough to be remembered by name became cherished. But the mountain of corpses didn't matter because the strategic game practically won itself. Research plasma cannons, build plasma cannons, secure the world's airspace. Then blunder your way through the tactical tech tree and eventually research the Mars solution. Paradoxically, the harder you make the strategic game the less the player can afford losses. If the game is to be about losing your heroes, they must be expendable. Both in terms of player time invested and strategic worth. Ideally the game would find some natural way where losing an experienced hero was a strategic gain.
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Feb 25, 2015 02:12
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S.J. posted:Like XCOM? I'm going to go ahead and say yes.
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Feb 25, 2015 02:41
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Apple2o posted:Clearly you haven't been forced to take rookies up against muton berserkers / elites. Yeah. This game is really boring already after 15 hours and it is actually a really easy game. I dunno why you guys are so excited about them balancing the difficulty around there being no mistakes possible on the strategic layer, think about what that means for the tactical layer and how it must be designed if they want any difficulty in the game (which they obviously do). People are excited about the Darkest Dungeon apparently debuffing your characters to not enter it again after the first time: loving hell, that's like some f2p MMO forced grinding mechanic, that is not an actual challenge.
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Feb 25, 2015 03:36
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TheBlandName posted:It bears keeping in mind that XCom was not designed for the ironman experience, and the ironman experience wasn't forced onto everyone who played XCom. As well, the (soft) failure state of aliens out-teching what basic rookies could deal with meant that one of the core-most parts of the mythical XCom experience was missing. In the original there was a parade of bodies. Largely because you could AFFORD to leave a trail of bodies. One rookie was just like any other, and could be swapped in or out of the skyranger without a second thought. Which meant the player noticed the handful that stuck around. The few who survived long enough to be remembered by name became cherished. But the mountain of corpses didn't matter because the strategic game practically won itself. Research plasma cannons, build plasma cannons, secure the world's airspace. Then blunder your way through the tactical tech tree and eventually research the Mars solution. Right, every time someone says "X-Com had a failure state!" they seem to conveniently forget that the default setting for X-Com lets you save whenever you want. Iron Man was a choice you could take, sure, but as you mentioned the game wasn't designed around it. When you took that choice you knew that you could be screwed, that 20 hours could go down the drain due to a series of misses or a lapse in judgement, and you were ok with that (probably because you felt you had mastered the normal game). Traditional roguelikes (Nethack, DCSS, etc), by contrast, are built with ironman in mind. They're generally much shorter, and while losing a promising character can still sting you don't lose all that much in the way of time. Plus since a lot of the challenge of such games is learning what everything does, you're still making progress even when you're dieing. Darkest Dungeons, however, is not really set up like that. While it does have the ironman-style saving, you're clearly meant to invest a lot of time building up your town/heroes. That puts it in an odd situation, where it feels like it needs something to help give it a sense of urgency, but having a mandatory failure state is overly punishing to the player.
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Feb 25, 2015 04:33
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I beat all the bosses! I guess I haven't leveled every class up to 6 but I'm calling this game "beat" until the next major content update.
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Feb 25, 2015 06:40
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Oh no! I was browsing through the trinkets and accidentally bought a trinket for 20000 gold. That was 2/3 of my gold stash. I wish it would confirm or let you sell it back. I don't suppose there's any editors out there to edit the amount of gold in these json files under the save directory? Looks like it's encrypted. drat it.
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Feb 25, 2015 06:48
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Baronjutter posted:I beat all the bosses! I guess I haven't leveled every class up to 6 but I'm calling this game "beat" until the next major content update. Just did the same. Swine God was the last one I had left, and well:  +crit% trinkets and buffs are pretty good, guys 
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Feb 25, 2015 06:59
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I do hope that they do a lot more with enemy variety and enemy party compositions to make individual encounters more threatening. I hope they don't try to buff the challenge by taking away the strengths of each class but rather tweak what the dungeon can throw at you. Ultimately, I think that this game may have oversold its difficulty, but I think it's better to admit that than to try and slap on a bunch of arbitrarily frustrating and irritating mechanics like a failure state and a debuff that requires you to raise tons and tons of characters to level 6 to attempt the final dungeon. I certainly wouldn't mind the level 3 and level 5 dungeons getting harder, though. I'd like to see an unblockable upgrade for the stage coach that makes the new characters you recruit come in at a higher level. Maybe after you beat one level 1 dungeon boss, you can get pay 30 Crests to make all your new characters come in at level 1 and after you beat all of the level 1 bosses, you can pay another 50 Crests and all the characters will join at level 2. It'd still allow you access to level 1 dungeons while still having to work to make the new characters strong enough to tackle higher-level challenges.
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Feb 25, 2015 07:32
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I think it would be good if, instead of the "characters will only agree to enter it once", the Darkest dungeon was just really large, with multiple bosses and many tasks that need to be achieved, and impossible to retreat from, but saved major progress like killed bosses and solved tasks between runs. It would take sacrifice of several teams to beat it, but it would be interesting to try and make your groups of martyrs make their deaths count by damaging the dungeon as much as possible to clear the way for the next group that tries to reach the big bad evil at the end of it.
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Feb 25, 2015 07:43
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RottenK posted:I think it would be good if, instead of the "characters will only agree to enter it once", the Darkest dungeon Brendan Rodgers posted:People are excited about the Darkest Dungeon apparently debuffing your characters to not enter it again after the first time Wait is this an actual thing? That sounds so tediously grindy that I'll really regret having bought this game if that's actually the case. LibbyM fucked around with this message at 08:41 on Feb 25, 2015 |
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Feb 25, 2015 08:36
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Rhaegar posted:Oh no! I was browsing through the trinkets and accidentally bought a trinket for 20000 gold. That was 2/3 of my gold stash. I wish it would confirm or let you sell it back. I don't suppose there's any editors out there to edit the amount of gold in these json files under the save directory? Looks like it's encrypted. Use Cheat Engine, also use the speed hack to play at 2x speed.
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Feb 25, 2015 09:23
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Internet Kraken posted:My Vestals always seemed to develop a strong desire for flagellation Every last one of my vestals are tipplers.
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Feb 25, 2015 09:36
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RottenK posted:I think it would be good if, instead of the "characters will only agree to enter it once", the Darkest dungeon was just really large, with multiple bosses and many tasks that need to be achieved, and impossible to retreat from, but saved major progress like killed bosses and solved tasks between runs. This is a fantastic idea and I hope they do this exactly.
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Feb 25, 2015 09:36
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Time_pants posted:This is a fantastic idea and I hope they do this exactly. One of those requires considerably more work than the other though. I think the idea of the dungeon locking out characters forever is terrible but I'm not concerned with it since that part of the game isn't even in early access. I'd be really surprised if they don't change that because nobody likes it. I do think there's some potential in the basic concept of a dungeon being so horrifying it debuffs characters that go into it, but just locking them out of it is boring. Also the sanitarium should probably let you pay to remove these problems, albeit expensively.
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Feb 25, 2015 09:41
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Operant posted:Holy poo poo, graverobbers and highwaymen get very silly at high levels. I have a highwayman right now with the 20% ranged accuracy trinket, 10% damage trinket, 10% ranged damage perk, 5% ranged accuracy perk, and rabies. With clean guns up he is a god drat monster. Rabies being a hidden boon reminds me of never curing my fighters in Might and Magic 6-7 of insanity, just because it makes them.. Well.. Insane in combat. 
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Feb 25, 2015 10:53
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Macaluso posted:Unrelated question, the preferred position section on the characters, some characters have green circles around the position spots, and some don't. What do the green circles mean? I'm pretty sure the green circles indicate where party buffs/heals can be targeted. Generally self buffs can be cast from anywhere and heals on anyone so the green circles are all highlighted if you have a buff/heal, but the Crusader has a heal that can only be cast on an adjacent party member and only works if he's in the front two ranks so you'll notice that he's got no fourth circle:  They probably need to figure out a better way to do that since the self buffs throw it off.
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Feb 25, 2015 11:14
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Has anything been said of how the Man-at-Arms and/or Houndmaster will function in combat? It's my understanding that the Merchant will be garbage except for possibly one skill that will do good damage at at the cost of treasure and the Arbalest is pretty easy to puzzle out: back row to back row damage. The other two seem so God drat interesting, though. I really can't wait to see how they'll shake out.
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Feb 25, 2015 12:04
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The Man-At-Arms will have one attack, a front-row to front-row mace bash, and the rest of his abilities will all grant protection and other defensive buffs to himself or various party members. The Houndmaster will be unable to do anything but move or pass until at least one party member dies, so that the empty slot can be filled with hounds. Not a hound, hounds. A summoned pillar of warped and baying hounds, stitched together by foulest magic. If the hound pillar survives the dungeon it is added to your roster and can gain quirks and levels. Hound pillars are essentially crusaders but instead of having a bonus against Unholy they inflict bleed, and instead of healing or de-stressing allies they just give them Rabies.
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Feb 25, 2015 15:33
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Angry Diplomat posted:The Man-At-Arms will have one attack, a front-row to front-row mace bash, and the rest of his abilities will all grant protection and other defensive buffs to himself or various party members. The Houndmaster will be unable to do anything but move or pass until at least one party member dies, so that the empty slot can be filled with hounds. Not a hound, hounds. A summoned pillar of warped and baying hounds, stitched together by foulest magic. If the hound pillar survives the dungeon it is added to your roster and can gain quirks and levels. Hound pillars are essentially crusaders but instead of having a bonus against Unholy they inflict bleed, and instead of healing or de-stressing allies they just give them Rabies. Being able to give rabies out would cement the Hound Pillar's place in groups. Maybe give them the ability to stack multiple levels of rabies as well?
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Feb 25, 2015 15:48
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Sloober posted:Being able to give rabies out would cement the Hound Pillar's place in groups. Maybe give them the ability to stack multiple levels of rabies as well? If you want a picture of the future, imagine a Hound Pillar stacking rabies forever.
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Feb 25, 2015 16:25
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Time_pants posted:If you want a picture of the future, imagine a Hound Pillar stacking rabies forever. which floods the dungeon with rivers of froth
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Feb 25, 2015 16:32
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Time_pants posted:Has anything been said of how the Man-at-Arms and/or Houndmaster will function in combat? It's my understanding that the Merchant will be garbage except for possibly one skill that will do good damage at at the cost of treasure and the Arbalest is pretty easy to puzzle out: back row to back row damage. I think it was mentioned that the Arbalest is a tank character actually.
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Feb 25, 2015 17:11
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Operant posted:I think it was mentioned that the Arbalest is a tank character actually. Considering being in the back row doesn't really mean you are any less likely to get hit hard, a back row tank is probably fine too.
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Feb 25, 2015 18:15
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Yeah a character who can sit in the back row, dish out consistent damage, and take big hits without going to pieces is a really good design space that the Bounty Hunter currently sort of edges into by virtue of being relatively tough and pretty good at fighting everything from everywhere (which will almost certainly change).
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Feb 25, 2015 18:24
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Operant posted:I think it was mentioned that the Arbalest is a tank character actually. There's no real way to make the enemy attack specific spots so there isn't really any 'tanks'. Internet Kraken posted:I wouldn't call it completely irrelevant. At least in Classic and Impossible, it forces you to do missions based on panic management rather than just rewards. The cost of failing a mission in terms of panic is also very high, so you can't just bail on every mission that goes south in the first few turns. After you finish the Alien Base though it quickly trails off into irrelevance. People say you can't grind forever in Xcom:EU but there really isn't anything stopping you from raiding barges and battle ships for as long as you want. There's just little point to doing so. Speaking of which, I find it silly that I can send a party into a dungeon clear out a few rooms and bail while making a tidy profit even including any supplies I might buy plus the stress relief cost for the crew. Cuntellectual fucked around with this message at 18:46 on Feb 25, 2015 |
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Feb 25, 2015 18:41
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The real racket is when your entire party doesn't need any stress relief whatsoever after Lvl.5 dungeons. 
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Feb 25, 2015 19:06
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Anatharon posted:There's no real way to make the enemy attack specific spots so there isn't really any 'tanks'. ...yet  A "taunt" would be really cool, forcing a target unit to only attack you for a turn or something. If you did it to a unit that couldn't target you back without moving, that'd be brutal. Maybe too good? I'd love the man at arms and arbalest to have something like that.
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Feb 25, 2015 19:07
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Anatharon posted:Speaking of which, I find it silly that I can send a party into a dungeon clear out a few rooms and bail while making a tidy profit even including any supplies I might buy plus the stress relief cost for the crew.
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Feb 25, 2015 21:52
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Zaphod42 posted:A "taunt" would be really cool, forcing a target unit to only attack you for a turn or something. If you did it to a unit that couldn't target you back without moving, that'd be brutal. Maybe too good?
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Feb 25, 2015 21:54
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God I fucking love Diablo 3 gold, it even paid for this shitty title
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misguided rage posted:It's basically just a stun at that point. I would imagine this theoretical ability would not go after stun resist.
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Feb 25, 2015 21:55
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For the houndmaster, I'm guessing that he'll release the dog at the start of each fight and it'll then act by itself while he fights with a standard sword. His abilities could be different orders for the dog to start off with (focus this monster, protect this party member, strike randomly) and then it goes over to AI control, essentially making it a buff/debuff.
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Feb 25, 2015 22:26
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Oh man bloodthirst rings are ridiculous. I realized I had 4 and not much money so I threw em on a group of rank 3's and sent them on a long mission, apparently that means I can camp without using any food, so I can use it as healing stuff instead. Handy since I have no healers available!
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Feb 26, 2015 01:44
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Enemies that could shift the light level more dramatically than +/-5 might prove interesting, or at least make you think twice about decking everyone out in sun cloaks (put two on my graverobber who also has tough skin. Yes please.)
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Feb 26, 2015 02:15
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Live dangerously; Legendary Bracers for all.
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Feb 26, 2015 03:36
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ZeusJupitar posted:For the houndmaster, I'm guessing that he'll release the dog at the start of each fight and it'll then act by itself while he fights with a standard sword. His abilities could be different orders for the dog to start off with (focus this monster, protect this party member, strike randomly) and then it goes over to AI control, essentially making it a buff/debuff. I kind of assume that it'll just be flavor to his abilities. Like instead of "Smite" or "Knife stab" it'll be "Kill Command" or whatever.
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Feb 26, 2015 03:37
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Anatharon posted:I kind of assume that it'll just be flavor to his abilities. Like instead of "Smite" or "Knife stab" it'll be "Kill Command" or whatever. Yeah, no way they'll add a fifth unit to the party order.
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Feb 26, 2015 03:41
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My guess is that Houndmaster will interact heavily with Marks, perhaps using a weapon attack to mark opponents and then using "hound attacks" that are normally sort of mediocre but become incredibly nasty on Marked opponents. Hey dogs! Kill that guy!
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Feb 26, 2015 03:46
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Angry Diplomat posted:My guess is that Houndmaster will interact heavily with Marks, perhaps using a weapon attack to mark opponents and then using "hound attacks" that are normally sort of mediocre but become incredibly nasty on Marked opponents. Hey dogs! Kill that guy! Man, don't tease me with the prospect of a Bounty Hunter/Houndmaster party with that kind of synergy. That poo poo sounds too good. Speaking of which, I've been thinking about the idea of a new healing class that specializes in heal-over-time effects. Do you think that could work? Edit: I also can't help but notice that Occultist has a sweet AoE stun when he's in the front two rows. Is he actually good to use from there? Seems like there's s pretty decent chance that he'll be ripped to shreds if I put him up there. Time_pants fucked around with this message at 07:48 on Feb 26, 2015 |
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Feb 26, 2015 07:04
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Time_pants posted:Edit: I also can't help but notice that Occultist has a sweet AoE stun when he's in the front two rows. Is he actually good to use from there? Seems like there's s pretty decent chance that he'll be ripped to shreds if I put him up there. You can be ripped to shreds in any position.
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Feb 26, 2015 11:59
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I think there are slightly more attacks that hit the first two rows since dudes that can deal a lot of damage/stress (skeleton bowmen, courtiers, etc) usually can only hit up there with their weaker attacks.
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Feb 26, 2015 12:21
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