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systran posted:and in the Knight it feels like Abel accepts a new quest or task from every random entity he comes across, only to completely lose sight of whatever his original goal was. Some of these inclusions work, like when Severian is on the front lines of the war and everyone agrees to tell a story. Anyway, I mostly agree on people often going to "stock" answers on Wolfe - then again, when I brought up the impact of interpretation in that thread, I got told I'm overthinking it. A lot of the stuff particularly in the New Sun books is intentionally vague and/or foreshadowing for a second/third readthrough. I found it enjoyable enough to warrant that. That being said, yeah, there's no way this explains a lot of the ocmpletely random(seeming?) stuff that happens in the books. And as for planning, well, given the amount of foreshadowing present in most of his books, I'd be very surprised if he didn't. anilEhilated fucked around with this message at 17:02 on Feb 25, 2015 |
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Feb 25, 2015 17:00
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Hieronymous Alloy posted:I have a weird theory on Gene Wolfe that I'm not sure everyone will agree with: I think he's not that good of an author. He's a good writer but he doesn't have or doesn't demonstrate the basic storytelling skills. I think it's important to have a plot that can be followed and that is to some extent projected/foreshadowed. An issue with really "pop" literature is that everything is formulaic and foreshadowed to death; it feels completely on rails and you know more or less exactly what is going to happen as far as the plot goes. You might not know who is going to do something, or what exactly is going to happen, but the formula tells you basically how close the thing is to happening, and how important it will be to the story. Someone like Dean Koontz or Clive Cussler is an extreme example of this. Gene Wolfe is on the other end of the spectrum, where the entire plot of the BotnS trilogy is essentially "Severian is a torturer, but becomes autarch." Between all of that, anything can happen at any time, and there is no way for the reader to anticipate things that will happen. Severian is going up a mountain, but oops there's a guy with two heads there in some kind of UFO in cryosleep, and he's going to attack Severian. Baldanders, the dumb dude from book one, he's actually the brains and in charge, and he has a hover device and lives in a castle for some reason! None of this stuff really ties into the overall plot, it just happens. There are mini-plots within those events though. I think I remember that Severian has to help a bunch of people siege Baldanders' castle, and that plotline almost has its own narrative arc. Again, I still don't get how or why Wolfe makes these decisions. Maybe you are right and he is just bad at doing this. Maybe it's a very conscious choice to break as far away from traditional narrative structure and formula as possible. I think, if you asked Wolfe, and based what he's said in interviews, it's the latter, but I tend to agree with you in large part because it doesn't make for very comprehensive reading. Writers like Mieville manage to take aspects of Wolfe's style and pin it onto a more coherent plot structure. Perdido Street Station and Embassytown tend to veer around quite a bit and lots of random poo poo does happen, but he drops enough hints to reassure you that the plot is not going to dramatically shift and that the characters' goals are not going to just disappear and turn into something else entirely. Another aspect of Wolfe's writing that sometimes frustrates me but other times works well for me is when he mentions something happening so matter-of-factly that you almost doubt that it really happened. When Jonas just shifts back to his home time/planet or whatever in the middle of the prison is one of those situations. As it's happening and right after it happens you feel entirely confused. If that happened to me in real life, I would feel confused as well, but then again if I were including it in a memoir, as Severian is, I wouldn't write about it in that tone? angel opportunity fucked around with this message at 17:11 on Feb 25, 2015 |
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Feb 25, 2015 17:08
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systran posted:
End of the day I'm not sure it matters. I think he does know what he's doing but the net effect is still, all too often, functionally indistinguishable from a hot mess, at least for those of us not deeply steeped in abstruse catholic and gnostic theology. I mean, hell, I've read most of his published work. But I don't recommend him to many people.
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Feb 25, 2015 17:21
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Hobnob posted:That... sounds so loving crazy I'm sorely tempted. I'm a sucker for a story with a totally insane premise. You gotta read it, it's awesome. I'm in the last third of it and it's turned into werewolf Road Warrior. Like I said before, some of the concepts in Red Moon sound ridiculous when described outta context, but the author pulls it off and writes a great epic story that reminds me of a King book like the Stand. savinhill fucked around with this message at 17:33 on Feb 25, 2015 |
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Feb 25, 2015 17:24
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It's not so much that "you have to re-read Wolfe's books for them to make sense," it's that they reward re-reading. There's little details or angles that are easy to miss, and that re-reading can reveal them, or you might come at a part with new understanding gained from knowledge of later events, or maybe you just forgot about a detail that didn't seem important at the time. I think Wolfe has a reputation for being more hard to read than he actually is. He rewards active thinking about character motivations, paying close attention, and considering implications. Generally, he'll never tell you something twice, regardless of its importance. Same with his pacing, sometimes he'll skip important events if their outcome has already been implied. I don't think this is bad storytelling, just different from contemporary trends, where everything is stated clearly and explicitly. If you come in with that expectation, I think you'll do alright on a first-read. If that's not your cup of tea, that's cool. But I'd rather re-read a Wolfe book for the Xth time than just about anything currently being published.
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Feb 25, 2015 17:25
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Stupid_Sexy_Flander posted:I've always kinda hated author photos. R A Salvatore's author photos have shifted over the years. Twenty years ago they looked like Duncan McCleod cosplay, now he just looks like a schlubby nerdy dude. It's a shame I burned out on him so hard, I imagine some of his independent stuff not involving drow elves is probably okay.
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Feb 25, 2015 19:31
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anilEhilated posted:Would that be this one? Anyway, could someone put nametags on the people above? The only one I recognized is Miéville. He looks so huggable in this picture, like someone's friendly grandpa! 
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Feb 25, 2015 20:22
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systran posted:I was looking for this pic I saw a while ago of a fantasy author who brought like a throne into a grassy field, and took a picture of himself on it with his dog next to him... That's John Gwynne.
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Feb 25, 2015 20:27
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Ornamented Death posted:That's John Gwynne. Thanks! 
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Feb 25, 2015 20:34
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I cannot figure out the thought process that leads to photos like that being taken.
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Feb 25, 2015 20:55
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I think it's actually awesome, so probably, "what's the most awesome self-portrait I could do?"
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Feb 25, 2015 20:56
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I think it's pretty great too. There's probably a little tongue-in-cheek going on there, so I doubt he's taking himself quite as seriously as people think he is.
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Feb 25, 2015 21:05
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He does a lot of RenFaire stuff with his kids.
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Feb 25, 2015 21:19
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Come on, if you had those mighty dogs, you'd take a photo like that too. 
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Feb 25, 2015 22:13
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systran posted:Thanks! syphon posted:I think it's pretty great too. There's probably a little tongue-in-cheek going on there, so I doubt he's taking himself quite as seriously as people think he is. Rabbit Hill posted:Come on, if you had those mighty dogs, you'd take a photo like that too. Left dog is taking it completely seriously. Right dog is in on the joke.
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Feb 25, 2015 23:17
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systran posted:I think it's actually awesome, so probably, "what's the most awesome self-portrait I could do?" Yeah, gently caress it. I'm on board this motherfucker's train.
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Feb 25, 2015 23:27
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Be sure to show your support by buying his books, Malice and Valor (Valour for you Brits)!
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Feb 26, 2015 00:04
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Those are some pretty impressive hounds I must admit.
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Feb 26, 2015 00:38
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Not SF/F but....
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Feb 26, 2015 00:46
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Slavvy posted:Those are some pretty impressive hounds I must admit. The left one died. ;_; RIP dag 
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Feb 26, 2015 00:51
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Megazver posted:The left one died. ;_; RIP dag Pretty sure they both have  .That one's name was Hammer, which is entirely fitting.
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Feb 26, 2015 00:52
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How are the books in the humble bundle? I have heard of one of them. Are the $15 tier books any good?
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Feb 26, 2015 03:41
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I bought it for the vance collection. I already have the bridge of birds compendium volume thing so I don't count that one, but it would be worth the price of entry alone if i didn't already own it.
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Feb 26, 2015 03:50
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coyo7e posted:R A Salvatore's author photos have shifted over the years. Twenty years ago they looked like Duncan McCleod cosplay, now he just looks like a schlubby nerdy dude. It's a shame I burned out on him so hard, I imagine some of his independent stuff not involving drow elves is probably okay. Eh... I mean, Salvatore's got some cool ideas and he's one of the few authors out there who actually values fun as a concept, but it's kind of hard to go back to him in general. He's got a real frenetic energy about his writing that should make the story move faster, but ultimately leaves you unable to focus on what's happening. Plus, his combat writing has aged kind of poorly.
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Feb 26, 2015 04:51
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I'd like to have a beer with the person who was profoundly disappointed when they found out their favorite fantasy author was, in fact, weird and nerdy Just so I can try to figure out what's going on there
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Feb 26, 2015 05:25
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systran posted:I know there's a Gene Wolfe thread but it's dead as poo poo so I'd rather post here: I've read a few interviews with Wolfe, and there's a couple that I think helped me understand him. In one he said that he never plotted or planned anything, except the floor plan of the building in Free Live Free (or at least not written down, all kept in his head). The other was about the Short Sun books, which feature alien vampires called inhumi, who have a secret that the protagonist, iirc, understands but doesn't share with the reader. In the interview Wolfe explained that the secret was that the inhumi prey on humans because they prey on each other, and that if humans didn't, neither would they. I think those statements explain a lot about him - his concerns are pretty different to most peoples' and tend to rely a lot more on intuition and the unconscious than other books. In a way I think he's similar to David Lynch. Sometimes things happen just because they're useful to the themes he wants to address, especially with his looser structures where he's freer to do so. He also has a pretty complex, and relatively unusual, worldview to express. Hence in part the craziness you were talking about* although that's also to do with peoples' lack of understanding of the world and the possibilities for revelation - both real and fictional people and world. And those people are often total strangers to themselves, eg Severian, Latro, Able, some people in The Fifth Head of Cerberus, and the protagonist of the Short Sun trilogy. And sometimes he's just obscure, like the Latro books relying on Greek myth and history. I think he also tries to make up for his weaknesses by using unusual settings, which doesn't help. Basically I think he's very mysterious. This review is a pretty good description of what I feel about him: http://www.strangehorizons.com/reviews/2008/10/an_evil_guest_b.shtml On the other hand his books generally have beautiful prose, are interesting on the surface (in my opinion, and I first read lots of his books as a teenager not understanding them at all) and have emotional payoff even if you're not sure what's going on. *I just read Anna Karenina and the best bit was how the characters are all so inconsistent, but consistently so.
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Feb 26, 2015 05:52
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Rusty Kettle posted:How are the books in the humble bundle? I have heard of one of them. Are the $15 tier books any good? Academic Exercises makes it worth it singlehandedly imo.
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Feb 26, 2015 06:35
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andrew smash posted:I bought it for the vance collection. I already have the bridge of birds compendium volume thing so I don't count that one, but it would be worth the price of entry alone if i didn't already own it.
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Feb 26, 2015 08:34
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Rusty Kettle posted:How are the books in the humble bundle? I have heard of one of them. Are the $15 tier books any good? This is easily the best book humble bundle offered so far, and it's going to be incredibly hard to top going forward.
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Feb 27, 2015 06:04
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Ornamented Death posted:This is easily the best book humble bundle offered so far, and it's going to be incredibly hard to top going forward. Incredibly hard? There are no better books than this? 
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Feb 27, 2015 06:52
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XBenedict posted:Incredibly hard? There are no better books than this? gently caress, there's Jack Vance and Ted Chiang and KJ Parker and Barry Hughart and Tim Powers and... I'm going to have to take a break.
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Feb 27, 2015 09:15
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XBenedict posted:Incredibly hard? There are no better books than this? Don't be dense. It's not hard to see the sort of books offered in previous bundles and draw a reasonable conclusion about what will be offered in the future. Some graphic novels and urban fantasy no one has ever heard of can't compete with Harlan Ellison, Barry Hughart, and Tim Powers, and that's only scratching the surface of this bundle.
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Feb 27, 2015 13:28
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Ornamented Death posted:Don't be dense. It's not hard to see the sort of books offered in previous bundles and draw a reasonable conclusion about what will be offered in the future. Some graphic novels and urban fantasy no one has ever heard of can't compete with Harlan Ellison, Barry Hughart, and Tim Powers, and that's only scratching the surface of this bundle. While I don't want to compare apples and oranges, the recent Image, Dynamite and Valiant bundles were top notch. I bought many of the books full price and don't regret the bundles. Meanwhile, I haven't heard of many of the authors or books in this bundle, so much of it seems indistinguishable from StoryBundle trope. It is all about perception and background! He may not be dense. He may, like me, simply not know any better.
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Feb 27, 2015 14:15
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I am two thirds of the way through Justin Cronin's The Passage. It's a fairly standard apocalyptic novel (part of a series) that begins with experiments in a pre-apocalypse world and so far has progressed to 92 years post-apocalypse. The good: Far above average prose Good characters The bad: Everything takes 5x longer than it should It feels like the writer has thought through the characters so much he is overflowing with information about inconsequential bitpart players, so when a settlement is being attacked it's not enough to know a detail about a character and something horrific that happens to them, we have to know their core motivations and 10 facts about their life. It ends up being far longer than it should. Still, the prose is really quite good and the characters are very distinctive. I'll keep going and overall recommend the series, despite the one rather prominent flaw.
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Feb 27, 2015 14:23
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I read The Passage when it first came out several years ago and enjoyed it. With that said, I haven't really felt compelled to read the sequel(s), but maybe I will...eventually? I liked some of the minutiae you mentioned. I remember having a really good feeling how their walled off settlement worked, and how fragile it (and humanity's existence) was, but I do also remember not caring about certain characters nearly as much as Cronin seemed to.
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Feb 27, 2015 14:39
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This Humble Bundle made me order a Kindle. I can finally read Bridge of Birds.
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Feb 27, 2015 18:20
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They added some new books to it (as bundles do) and now the email books link seems to be working properly, so that's good.
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Feb 27, 2015 18:36
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Groke posted:gently caress, there's Jack Vance and Ted Chiang and KJ Parker and Barry Hughart and Tim Powers and... I'm going to have to take a break. It's like, one of Ted Chiang's best shorts too, and he's not a weak author; gently caress, I can't think of a 'bad' Ted Chiang story... but man, I'd feel ripped if I went into that expecting a novel-length thing. Is it common for huge percentages of Humble Book Bundles to be short stories/novellas?
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Feb 28, 2015 01:31
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Whalley posted:It's like, one of Ted Chiang's best shorts too, and he's not a weak author; gently caress, I can't think of a 'bad' Ted Chiang story... but man, I'd feel ripped if I went into that expecting a novel-length thing. Is it common for huge percentages of Humble Book Bundles to be short stories/novellas? I guess if you know Ted Chiang has never written a novel, then it's not so bad?
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Feb 28, 2015 03:19
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Whalley posted:It's like, one of Ted Chiang's best shorts too, and he's not a weak author; gently caress, I can't think of a 'bad' Ted Chiang story... but man, I'd feel ripped if I went into that expecting a novel-length thing. Is it common for huge percentages of Humble Book Bundles to be short stories/novellas? No, it's common for them to be so-so to okay-ish mid-list novels that no one cares about. Short story collections make sense for bundles, though. I hope we get more.
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Feb 28, 2015 10:00
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