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MeruFM posted:it's crutches all the way until you need to do division with 14 bytes of memory. So you're probably already programming, it won't be that different. 14 bytes should be enough for anybody
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Feb 27, 2015 01:21
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Power Ambient posted:yospos im a front-end UI dev and i want to get better at Actual Real Programming, so what is the best way to move through code problems from the front end down into the back end all the way to the metal? i mean besides just picking a language and doing a bunch of tutorials. thank i generally do backend stuff and i probably find front-end programming just as daunting as you find back-end programming. #1) don't sell yourself short #2) have realistic expectations. don't try to be like monoqc/tef/suspicious dish/etc. try to be more like shaggar. #3) find something that interests you and that you think might be hard and go doit
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Feb 27, 2015 01:21
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i am of the opinion that once you know "programming" you will know that its not about the language or front back or side ends i started out at this job working on a server which had a DB -> backend app -> ridiculous ipc -> another thin smear of poo poo app -> frontend app that ran on tomcat or w/e now i work on embedded code inside of the clients that connect to this server it wasnt that big a change, especially since 80% of that poo poo is some form of java the biggest part is just *starting*, and you might be a bit poo poo at it for weeks. but you'll get there.
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Feb 27, 2015 01:26
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also, im not going to just look for embedded stuff for my next job even though that where most of my experience is.
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Feb 27, 2015 01:27
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Power Ambient posted:yospos im a front-end UI dev and i want to get better at Actual Real Programming, so what is the best way to move through code problems from the front end down into the back end all the way to the metal? i mean besides just picking a language and doing a bunch of tutorials. thank back end dev is incredibly easy because the tools are designed to make it easy and all the hard technical problems have been solved. the only problems you will run into are resource constraints (money/time/people) and the tools are designed to make the most of what you have. idk if I could really think of a tutorial that would help though cause no tutorial ever matches real world use and a lot of tutorials use ORMs which are garbage. it wasn't until like the last year or so that front end web dev had received serious attention from real tool makers tho, so you may be right where you need to be for the upcoming transition to fully sick front end stuff. the problem is there are still a lot of legacy frameworks like angular that people are still using that do really dumb poo poo like claim to be mvvm but aren't mvvm at all. knockout is really goddamned good and you can use it to start making almost legitimate applications in javascript. its gonna be a few more years before it really gets to the point where we have a WPF for the web, but we're getting there as promised. asp.net has been the best web framework for a while now and when asp.net 5 hits later this year its gonna be so goddamned good. if you aren't using it today you are doing the wrong thing. The only problems with asp.net are the lack of maven and a lack of a good, current statement mapper. they will try to convince you to use entity framework but don't. its a huge turd. I've moved pretty much entirely off java for new projects, but I still like it and maven is the best so you aren't an idiot to use it. jesus I miss maven. nuget sucks.
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Feb 27, 2015 01:34
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MeruFM posted:I don't know many people these days who do exclusively front-end unless they're a designer. i am formerly a designer (designer + html/css stuff for almost a decade) and fell into doing more straight up webdev stuff about 4 years ago. i enjoy it but i haven't done anything very interesting and the hardest programming i've ever done was making an image based clock on a Household Corporate Name website and i'm entirely self-taught so i might be hosed, but i thought i'd ask. i make a good living being barely competant, but i want to be competent enough to make more money tbh, tho i really like coding, but maybe i'm too dumb to be good at it? or maybe it will just take another decade? like i'm struggling with angular right now and i don't know if it's because angular is total poo poo (my boss makes it look really easy and does it fast), or because i have huge gaps in coding knowledge? probably both lol ok, end very long and bad sincerepost. return turd;
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Feb 27, 2015 01:38
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angular is poop from a butt. use knockout.
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Feb 27, 2015 01:39
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its not my choice, my boss is making me use it  so far it's making george upset
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Feb 27, 2015 01:40
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Angular is a pretty weird (and bad) framework that shits on 10 years of good framework ideas, saying gently caress it, we're google and we know better! Except now there's angular 2.0 where they realized they did it all wrong. Anyways, just learn python i guess? Maybe do a few euler problems to see if you are competent with it. Since you're a pretty senior guy in terms of general work experience, the only hard part is convincing an employer that you can do stuff other than frontend.
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Feb 27, 2015 01:47
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fritz posted:50k is midrange gs7 in the dc locality lol in DC, where the locality supplemental pay is a cheaper rate than you get in Houston, Texas.
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Feb 27, 2015 02:01
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Illusive gently caress Man posted:hi, i'm illusive gently caress man and i'm a terrible programmer. now its two years later. I kinda want to apply somewhere else, but I feel bad because a whole lot of things will completely fall apart if I leave mate, you need to move on to a new job before you develop any more symptoms of burnout the atlassian "if i don't do it, it won't get done" is reserved for the people who profit off the company, not the ones who get paid
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Feb 27, 2015 02:13
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it is hard to get over that, though. but you really should. as someone who hasnt. and they dotn even rely on me as much
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Feb 27, 2015 02:15
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Power Ambient posted:what is the best way to move through code problems from the front end down into the back end all the way to the metal? i mean besides just picking a language and doing a bunch of tutorials. thank terrible people ---- algorithms and data structures ---- terrible hardware: the trick is to go somewhere in the middle and avoid the ends, welcome to backend programming things like the facebook puzzles, or project euler may get you to revise some discrete mathematics, but really the best thing to learn real programming is to not only write terrible code, but be responsible for it . at this point you need to do two things: learn from other peoples mistakes, and go out and make lots of your own mistakes. read a bunch of large projects, do a bunch of documentation or test fixes for a project you use, scratch an itch. the real thing is that learning the social problems dominate the technical ones. it isn't so much algorithms and data structures, but office politics and unbridled capitalism. learning to mediate debates, or lead them without silencing others, making the rest of the team work harmoniously. you can become an expert easily but it's way more useful not to be a total dick. aim for both
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Feb 27, 2015 02:20
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tef posted:the atlassian "if i don't do it, it won't get done" is reserved for the people who profit off the company, not the ones who get paid listen to this man you're an employee, selling his time to the company. every two weeks they pay you, and the books are cleared. you don't owe them poo poo.
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Feb 27, 2015 02:21
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bobbilljim posted:it is hard to get over that, though. but you really should. as someone who hasnt. and they dotn even rely on me as much a lot of companies will let you fool yourself into believing you're not disposable, because if you think you're holding up the world you're less likely to abandon it. they'll let you destroy yourself out of good intentions, you are not an investment and there is no return expected. when you do quit, either by foresight or burnout, you feel awful waiting to leave. all the people you still like are going to suffer and you can't help out anymore. and then you quit and you no longer give a gently caress and it is magical.
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Feb 27, 2015 02:24
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Notorious b.s.d. posted:listen to this man you owe them the professionalism they demonstrate and the respect they earn, but you don't owe them poo poo. if you have to bail to look after yourself, bail.
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Feb 27, 2015 02:26
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if you are an employee of a startup, there is one thing that is certain: you're getting a raw deal. it is rare that someone hired early on maintains their status throughout the explosive growth. it isn't so much a joke but something we laugh at: if you want to get a promotion, you leave people don't employ you out of pity, sympathy, or kindness. they hire you because they profit. they pay you less than they earn, because how else would they stay in business, and no matter how much you feel like you've benefitted from having a better job than the last lovely regret the company does not have your best interests at heart, you should not have the companies best interests at heart either.it is not to say that every company is some hilarious parody of a capitalist, forked tongue and all, but part of being professional is not selling yourself short, and it's a hard lesson to learn
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Feb 27, 2015 02:32
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i have the company's best interest at heart 40 hours a week, when i am performing functions as a gently oiled cog in the machine
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Feb 27, 2015 02:37
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my last PM: if you want a payrise, get a new job
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Feb 27, 2015 02:38
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hey boss, holla holla get dolla
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Feb 27, 2015 02:42
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hi I'm KidDynamite and I'm at a startup getting paid to learn swift and make a native iOS app. i hope in 2 years some one will pay me lots of money for knowing lots of swift. or maybe apple will tank and i will kill myself.
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Feb 27, 2015 04:08
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MALE SHOEGAZE posted:don't try to be like monoqc/tef/suspicious dish/etc. try to be more like shaggar. mods, thread title, plx
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Feb 27, 2015 04:19
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MALE SHOEGAZE posted:i generally do backend stuff and i probably find front-end programming just as daunting as you find back-end programming. i'm not that good at programming but i do have a large collection of mistakes i try to avoid.
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Feb 27, 2015 04:28
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MALE SHOEGAZE posted:i generally do backend stuff and i probably find front-end programming just as daunting as you find back-end programming. this is good advice in that 1. you may be better than you think you are, because being aware of how bad you are is a sign that you've learned something. ask for more money, welcome to capitalism 101. 2. you're still gonna gently caress up though, so plan around risks and you'll be ok. a job is still a job at the end of the day. 3. don't expect other people to magic up enthusiasm for you, you're gonna have to spend time making mistakes of your own if you want to learn i feel i kinda have to explain myself because it's weird to be called out for being good at something when most of you have never used, maintained, or even read my code. in terms of just effort posting, mononcqc puts me to shame with the use of diagrams. since i am accused of being good, for me there are two things that i think made me better at programming, above and beyond learning a lot of weird rules and edge cases the first is that i've maintained a whole load of other peoples code, come in late and have to untangle it. using a bunch of other peoples code and reading it made me realise i never wanted to do that to other people. sympathy for the people who have to use your work and tidy up after you, is something that keeps me from writing clever tricks and fancyful architecture. the other one was teaching people, kids, in particular. one asked "what's a function useful for" and i didn't have a canned answer. it made me realise how much of what i'd learned and how much i'd internalised it. seeing people make mistakes i'd long forgotten was a weird experience. so by all means go and learn a new toolkit, it's a good foot in the door. if you can get paid to learn something, do it. if you can carve time out from work to do it, try and get away with it. it's always a good thing to do. there is all sorts of domain experience with hardware, software, infrastructure, platforms, and toolkits worth gaining. still: teaching, maintenance, incident handling aren't so easily taught yet, so you will have to suffer as we have suffered. you need to go out and make mistakes of your own. but being a good programmer is not just being good at programming. you can be really smart but still act like a junior programmer, you can move an entire company without knowing floating point semantics. the whole sort of junior/senior/lead distinction is ambiguous at the best of times, but it's sorta a measure of your social effectiveness — how much other people improve from working with you. roughly, you start with "gets stuck and might not ask questions" then "will ask questions when stuck but won't offer help to others" and then onto "asks for help when stuck and works with others to see what they can help with". i'm not saying you need to go out and teach, or launch a rocket to the moon. i'm saying you need to work with other people to get better at doing your job alone.
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Feb 27, 2015 04:56
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tef posted:a bunch of other peoples code and reading it made me realise i never wanted to do that to other people. sympathy for the people who have to use your work and tidy up after you, is something that keeps me from writing clever tricks and fancyful architecture. i'm just starting out with my first python class and i have more comments than code sometimes. i might be a fuckup, but you'll know exactly where and how i am loving up
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Feb 27, 2015 05:34
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Bad Sneakers posted:i'm just starting out with my first python class and i have more comments than code sometimes. i might be a fuckup, but you'll know exactly where and how i am loving up i still sometimes write out a skeleton in comments and slowly replace it with code
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Feb 27, 2015 05:36
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tef posted:i still sometimes write out a skeleton in comments and slowly replace it with code that's the only way i can function at the moment without being completely overwhelmed. i usually do two rounds of comment translation from english to python speak, which takes a huge amount of time. i hope it gets better the more i do this
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Feb 27, 2015 05:43
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Bad Sneakers posted:i usually do two rounds of comment translation from english to python speak, which takes a huge amount of time. are you sure you're not a compiler irl
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Feb 27, 2015 05:48
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im still in the bad habit of writing everything in code and THEN when thats all done seeing if it compiles/works
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Feb 27, 2015 05:57
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tef posted:i still sometimes write out a skeleton in comments and slowly replace it with code 
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Feb 27, 2015 05:59
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none of the vietnamese guys we have writing code off shore comment poo poo. it's going to be a problem one day maybe
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Feb 27, 2015 06:06
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bucketmouse posted:that horrible opengl interop library i complained about was being used heavily in the backend of a project i'm on seriously? I'm using it in a project I'm working on now, that'll be something to keep in mind
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Feb 27, 2015 06:08
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Gus Hobbleton posted:im still in the bad habit of writing everything in code and THEN when thats all done seeing if it compiles/works i just got burned on that. spent an extra 5+ hours trying to debug everything i wrote all at once without testing and still didn't get it done in time
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Feb 27, 2015 06:14
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tef posted:kids, in particular. one asked "what's a function useful for" and i didn't have a canned answer. that's an interesting question since most languages use "functions" for two entirely different use cases when you taught kids did you focus on functions (get the square root of a number) or procedures (move the turtle forward) first?
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Feb 27, 2015 06:18
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Gus Hobbleton posted:im still in the bad habit of writing everything in code and THEN when thats all done seeing if it compiles/works this is why i like python doctests. i start a function by writing out in english what it should do, add some trivial examples, and now i have a unit test i can run as i go along
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Feb 27, 2015 06:26
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tef posted:i still sometimes write out a skeleton in comments and slowly replace it with code +1 to this
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Feb 27, 2015 06:29
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MALE SHOEGAZE posted:#2) have realistic expectations. don't try to be like monoqc/tef/suspicious dish/etc. try to be more like shaggar.  what I'm trying to say is that shaggar is kind of cool
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Feb 27, 2015 06:45
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shaggar is a Sith Lord and tbc is his apprentice
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Feb 27, 2015 06:52
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good commenting practice is hard to nail down. I think overcommenting is worse than undercommenting because it wastes my time as a reader to slog through and inevitably goes out of date. I want to know what/why from your comments. if I want to know how I will just knuckle down and read your bad code.
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Feb 27, 2015 08:34
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i like to put a link to the issue that occasioned the horror in a comment above
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Feb 27, 2015 09:01
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