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Doesn't it also needle at Jon in ways that Ramsey would have no way of knowing?
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Mar 3, 2015 08:13
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Doesn't Ramsay also hate the word "bastard" which is used a bunch in the Pink Letter?
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Mar 3, 2015 08:53
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You could look at the overuse of the word "bastard" in the Pink Letter. The use of word "bastard" does not discount Ramsay: Ramsay has a complex about his birthright but he has no issue with using the word so long as it's describing somebody else (he calls his horse "bastard"). But when Mance is disguised as Rattleshirt at the Wall, he calls Jon bastard constantly because he knows how much it get under Jon's skin (because Jon told him so). The Pink Letter is littered with the word, almost to the point of parody. Really, the entire letter seems specifically designed to offend as many people as possible and provoke exactly what was going to happen (i.e. Jon planning to march south with wildlings). The gratuitous descriptions of the spearwives' deaths (in a manner that is sure to outrage wildings), the fact that the letter stresses that Mance is in danger but still alive and that his time is limited (and thus, there is an opportunity to rescue him), the revelation that Arya/Jeyne has escaped (which tells Jon that Mance followed through with his part of the bargain), and the frankly insane demands (that Jon must turn over all of Stannis' family) ensures that Jon would be compelled to take action on principle alone. Too bad he got stabbed. In It For The Tank fucked around with this message at 08:56 on Mar 3, 2015 |
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Mar 3, 2015 08:54
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In It For The Tank posted:You could look at the overuse of the word "bastard" in the Pink Letter. The use of word "bastard" does not discount Ramsay: Ramsay has a complex about his birthright but he has no issue with using the word so long as it's describing somebody else (he calls his horse "bastard"). But when Mance is disguised as Rattleshirt at the Wall, he calls Jon bastard constantly because he knows how much it get under Jon's skin (because Jon told him so). The Pink Letter is littered with the word, almost to the point of parody. What is Mance hoping to accomplish with the letter? He doesn't strike me as the entirely self-serving type to risk everything he's done for his people to merely save his life. Destabilizing things at the Wall (which he would sure to know would happen given his history both in the Night's Watch and leading the Wildlings) doesn't help save his people from the Others.
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Mar 3, 2015 12:39
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Kevyn posted:Doesn't Ramsay also hate the word "bastard" which is used a bunch in the Pink Letter? Ramsay hates being called a bastard. Ramsay is a giant hypocrite and a very bad man so him calling another bastard a bastard doesn't seem out of character to me.
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Mar 3, 2015 14:33
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Mike N Eich posted:What is Mance hoping to accomplish with the letter? He doesn't strike me as the entirely self-serving type to risk everything he's done for his people to merely save his life. Destabilizing things at the Wall (which he would sure to know would happen given his history both in the Night's Watch and leading the Wildlings) doesn't help save his people from the Others. If I recall correctly his primary objective was just to get his people south of the wall. He may now see opportunity for his men to take Winterfell which would add much more security. I don't think that Mance has any sort of desire to help the Night's Watch defend the realm.
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Mar 3, 2015 15:01
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lifts cats over head posted:If I recall correctly his primary objective was just to get his people south of the wall. He may now see opportunity for his men to take Winterfell which would add much more security. I don't think that Mance has any sort of desire to help the Night's Watch defend the realm. But, If Mance has any sort of brain he'll know taking Winterfell will spell doom as the Northern lords will just rally and crush him and after that no one, especially not Jon and Stannis, will ever trust the wildlings ever again and they will be forced to stay behind the wall.
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Mar 3, 2015 16:15
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Mance is in a really awkward position no matter what. Melisandre went behind Stannis's back to save him. Stannis may well want him dead. Unless he decides he did him good service in Winterfell and just chops off his hand or something instead.
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Mar 3, 2015 16:19
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Nah, Stannis would cut out his tongue for breaking his vows but will grant him more land to keep his people on.
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Mar 3, 2015 16:28
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It's weird because a Clash of Kings kind of sets up Stannis and Renly as both being totally unsuited for rulership for completely different reasons, but by ADWD Stannis is actually a pretty good ruler. I expect none of this to come across in the show.
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Mar 3, 2015 16:36
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Stannis is awesome but let's be honest, he would be completely terrible as king.
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Mar 3, 2015 16:40
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He's bad at diplomacy (though not as bad as I'd have thought considering he managed to get those mountain clans on side) but for domestic policy he's mostly pretty good when he actually listens to advice. Now, the only advice he usually listens to is from Davos or Melisandre, but still. Most advice he gets is poo poo.
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Mar 3, 2015 16:53
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The Sharmat posted:It's weird because a Clash of Kings kind of sets up Stannis and Renly as both being totally unsuited for rulership for completely different reasons, but by ADWD Stannis is actually a pretty good ruler. As has been mentioned before when it comes to Stannis, you can't really use what other people say about Stannis (or anyone else in these books) to build a picture of how Stannis really is. I bet you are referring to that quote about each of the three brothers being swords of different material, where Renly is really pretty but soft, Stannis is hard and unbending and thus likely to shatter, and Robert is perfect and well forged. Take a moment to consider that description of Robert because GRRM pretty much already demonstrated long before that quote is said that Robert is a really terrible king who was really only good at one thing. Stannis is described as humorless, but cracks jokes all the time in his chapters. He is described as cold, but he shows a lot of sentimentality both in how he treats his daughter and in the stories of his childhood and that hawk he kept. He is described as being a poor leader of men, but his life is filled with him being on the front-lines of several of his brother's battles and winning them rather well, AND the men that he commands are the most completely loyal of any group of vassals any of the kings has. He is described as being bound to the laws of men and gods, but he basically breaks those rules all the time in order to further his claim in the most efficient way possible. And most importantly, he is described as being uncreative, but if lots of theorists are right, then he is planning a hilariously creative trap for Bolton's men in the next book.
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Mar 3, 2015 16:54
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Except in the show, where the things said about Stannis can be taken at face value and accepted.
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Mar 3, 2015 17:12
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The Sharmat posted:Except in the show, where the things said about Stannis can be taken at face value and accepted. Stannis arriving at the wall felt menacing in the show, like they were trading one villain (Mance) for another. It wouldn't surprise me if show only watches thought that it was meant to be a negative development. Nothing about it sold the moment as heroic.
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Mar 3, 2015 17:32
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Anonymous Zebra posted:As has been mentioned before when it comes to Stannis, you can't really use what other people say about Stannis (or anyone else in these books) to build a picture of how Stannis really is. I bet you are referring to that quote about each of the three brothers being swords of different material, where Renly is really pretty but soft, Stannis is hard and unbending and thus likely to shatter, and Robert is perfect and well forged. Take a moment to consider that description of Robert because GRRM pretty much already demonstrated long before that quote is said that Robert is a really terrible king who was really only good at one thing. What trap is that? I think I missed that.
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Mar 3, 2015 17:39
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Calaveron posted:What trap is that? I think I missed that. I don't have the link handy, but there are several different sites that layout how Stannis may be intentionally weakening the ice over a lake so that it will chain-reaction collapse if too much weight is applied. He also may be moving a particular beacon that is used by Northerners to orient themselves on the thin area of land between two frozen lakes (which are hard to see in a winter storm). The end result is that he will move the beacon so the Bolton armies walk onto the lakes instead of solid land, and will then catapult rocks onto the lake causing it to collapse and drown the armies.
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Mar 3, 2015 17:48
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PriorMarcus posted:Stannis arriving at the wall felt menacing in the show, like they were trading one villain (Mance) for another. It wouldn't surprise me if show only watches thought that it was meant to be a negative development. Nothing about it sold the moment as heroic. It wasn't really heroic in the books either, the whole conflict between the NW and the wildlings is essentially a tragedy. A bunch of starving refugees trying to get over a wall to safety from evil necromancer snow elves being slaughtered by a bunch of armed and armored knights. Everyone has a perfectly good reason to be doing what they are doing, but I at least found myself wishing they would just open the gates and let the wildlings settle the gift in the first place. Heck. Mance is probably the closest thing to a hero in the books. All the guy is trying to do is save his people from annihilation.
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Mar 3, 2015 17:52
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Anonymous Zebra posted:I don't have the link handy, but there are several different sites that layout how Stannis may be intentionally weakening the ice over a lake so that it will chain-reaction collapse if too much weight is applied. He also may be moving a particular beacon that is used by Northerners to orient themselves on the thin area of land between two frozen lakes (which are hard to see in a winter storm). The end result is that he will move the beacon so the Bolton armies walk onto the lakes instead of solid land, and will then catapult rocks onto the lake causing it to collapse and drown the armies. That's definitely what is the case - I didn't even catch that with the beacon. The books mention Stannis' troops drilling holes into the ice during Asha's (and in the preview, Theon's) chapters. I know ADWD is somewhat disliked in the book thread for ASOIAF, but I can't help but get hyped for the utter chaos that will be the beginning of the next book, if all those delayed confrontations are anything to go by. I probably have a few years of waiting left in me before I go insane with expectations!
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Mar 3, 2015 18:01
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Mike N Eich posted:What is Mance hoping to accomplish with the letter? He doesn't strike me as the entirely self-serving type to risk everything he's done for his people to merely save his life. Destabilizing things at the Wall (which he would sure to know would happen given his history both in the Night's Watch and leading the Wildlings) doesn't help save his people from the Others. Jon and the wildlings are the only power faction in the North that won't flay or burn him if he falls into their hands (because Jon owes him for saving "Arya" and he's banking on the wildlings having some residual loyalty to him). There is a small implication that Mance may have struck a truce with the Umbers based on his astute preperations (how did Mance know to go Winterfell and come prepared for a wedding? He was only sent to scour Long Lake for "Arya" - Alys Karstark - which is Umber territory) and because Rowan the spearwife is possibly Mors Crowfood's stolen daughter (she is described as what one would expect a female Umber to look like and chastises Theon for daring to use the Stark words like a loyal Stark bannerman). But even if that is true, Rowan might be dead, so he can't rely on the northern lords. If you were Mance, currently hiding out in the crypts (or wherever) while Ramsay and the Boltons scour the castle and Stannis approaches from the outside, I think you and most people would take the chance on Jon. As for why he would risk destabalizing the Wall. I don't know if Mance expected Jon to read the letter in public or that the situation at the Wall had deteriorated to the point that Jon would get gangshanked. In addition, based on his low opinion of Bowen Marsh, I doubt Mance expected the stewards to have the balls to pull off a mutiny. Mance was probably hoping Jon would show some wisdom and, after reading the letter, quietly assembled men for a raid. I don't think anyone could have predicted that Jon would go full Targ crazy and leak the news to everyone. That said, Mance might have not cared about the potential consequences at all. It's worth mentioning that there is a possibility that Mance has forsaken his people. He says as much in ADWD to Melisandre but it might well have been a bluff or a lie. If it was true though, that might justify the risk of sending the letter. In It For The Tank fucked around with this message at 18:05 on Mar 3, 2015 |
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Mar 3, 2015 18:03
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I hope there's no Pink Letter on the show. That way, readers will be able to disagree on who sent it for long years after the show has ended. Also, it's a pretty weird plot device - it's not as if Jon's previous policies were not inflammatory enough.
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Mar 3, 2015 18:19
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All this speculation just makes me wish he'd hurry up and finish the drat book!
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Mar 3, 2015 18:21
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Jumping off from Anonymous Zebra: Of all the contenders for the Throne, Stannis is the closest to the ideal ruler described in Machiavelli's commentaries. He understands the importance of appearing just and fearsome, but is willing to manipulate the law and try to appease others when it suits his interests. Also, trying to look at the other Westerosi houses through this context makes them questionable rulers. The Starks are too bound by what they think is noble, the Lannisters have no understanding of good PR or mercy, the Greyjoys think they can brute force every problem, and the Tyrells rely too much on good fortune. (Reading into fiction like this is a fun game, because it let's you provide new meaning to the source material, even if it does require dismissing authorial intent.) Really though, the "winner" of the series will be the one that is most narratively satisfying for GRRM and his readers. As much as I enjoy Stannis, I don't think there's any question that Jon is going to come out on top at the end. FAKE EDIT: Here's a choice quote that applies to Stannis's policy to his Karstark traitor: The Art of War, Book VI posted:If you should have present in your army someone who keeps the enemy advised of your designs, you cannot do better if you want to avail yourself of his evil intentions, than to communicate to him those things you do not want to do, and keep silent those things you want to do, and tell him you are apprehensive of the things of which you are not apprehensive, and conceal those things of which you are apprehensive: which will cause the enemy to undertake some enterprise, in the belief that he knows your designs, in which you can deceive him and defeat him. QuoProQuid fucked around with this message at 18:54 on Mar 3, 2015 |
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Mar 3, 2015 18:50
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Blind Melon posted:It wasn't really heroic in the books either, the whole conflict between the NW and the wildlings is essentially a tragedy. A bunch of starving refugees trying to get over a wall to safety from evil necromancer snow elves being slaughtered by a bunch of armed and armored knights. Everyone has a perfectly good reason to be doing what they are doing, but I at least found myself wishing they would just open the gates and let the wildlings settle the gift in the first place. It was as heroic as anything in the books. Which is to say, it was very fortuitous from the PoV of the PoV character but had many dimensions to it, some of which were not very good for some party with some legitimate grievances. Also I'd like to point out that Stannis DID let Wildlings come south of the Wall, perhaps against popular opinion among the Night's Watch. He made them do it on his terms though. And why not? Mance's army would have disintegrated into a dozen looting hordes slaughtered in short order by the Boltons if they'd gotten their way in the first place.
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Mar 3, 2015 19:14
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If Jon is really getting shanked at Hardhome, then there probably wont be a Pink Letter in the show.
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Mar 3, 2015 19:15
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There's a featurette up about the weapons they made for Areo and the Sand Snakes: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=__poCm1Od20 Nipples on a breastplate spotted 
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Mar 3, 2015 19:32
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While it all looks really good, I did have a good giggle in that video when the solution to making something appear Dornish was to slap a snake on it.
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Mar 3, 2015 19:37
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colonel_korn posted:There's a featurette up about the weapons they made for Areo and the Sand Snakes: They're just incredibly erect nipples.
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Mar 3, 2015 19:41
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PriorMarcus posted:While it all looks really good, I did have a good giggle in that video when the solution to making something appear Dornish was to slap a snake on it. You'd think he could have diversified with a sun motif. I guess he really likes snakes.
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Mar 3, 2015 19:41
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Can't wait for Jaime to see lots of exotic nude people in Dorne.
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Mar 3, 2015 19:44
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Steve2911 posted:They're just incredibly erect nipples. She's gonna kill someone with those and no one will call them useless ever again.
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Mar 3, 2015 19:50
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PriorMarcus posted:While it all looks really good, I did have a good giggle in that video when the solution to making something appear Dornish was to slap a snake on it. More that it's the weapons for the Sand Snakes, so of course all those girls use a snake motif. The ax does have the sun motif though.
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Mar 3, 2015 20:26
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The Sharmat posted:It was as heroic as anything in the books. So not at all? I kid I kid. However, no. Not even a little.
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Mar 3, 2015 21:18
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If you don't think the whole 'Jon briefly thinks it's loving Robert come back to save everyone' followed by 'Stannis! Stannis! STANNIS!' thing doesn't have a triumphant, upbeat tone then I don't even know what to say.
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Mar 3, 2015 21:29
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Lycus posted:She's gonna kill someone with those and no one will call them useless ever again. You know nothing Lycus Snow. Those are a distraction to better impale her ennemies.
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Mar 3, 2015 21:50
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The Sharmat posted:If you don't think the whole 'Jon briefly thinks it's loving Robert come back to save everyone' followed by 'Stannis! Stannis! STANNIS!' thing doesn't have a triumphant, upbeat tone then I don't even know what to say. Yeah, it's definitely upbeat in the books. Not at all in the show. Doesn't show Jon know a lot more about the current world than books Jon though? Like, he knows nearly his entire family is dead, right?
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Mar 3, 2015 22:07
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Stannis wouldn't have been a good king in ACoK. It's debatable whether he'd be a good one by this point, but in ACoK he's vindictive, stubborn, and prideful. His "justness" simply masks the fact that, at least back then, he was obsessed with getting what he felt he was owed and punishing any who would dare question his, frankly somewhat flimsy in the eyes of anyone who wasn't specifically looking to find out Cersei's secret, claim to the throne. GRRM himself has said it's Stannis' realization he needs to fight the Others that ennobles him, not the fact that he's technically Robert's rightful heir. He's also manipulated by Melisandre and his wife into making less intelligent choices. And ironically, had Stannis been less stubborn and prideful he would've had a greater chance to sit the Iron Throne, whereas now he'll almost certainly die before he actually has a chance to serve as King in a greater capacity than he does in the books.
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Mar 4, 2015 00:05
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The Sharmat posted:If you don't think the whole 'Jon briefly thinks it's loving Robert come back to save everyone' followed by 'Stannis! Stannis! STANNIS!' thing doesn't have a triumphant, upbeat tone then I don't even know what to say. That's nice kiddo, but we were talking about heroicism. The rains of Castemere has a triumphant upbeat tone if you are a Lannister, but people would give you funny looks if you described it as heroic. In that specific moment you could see it as heroic. After Jon walks through the aftermath following the battle, not so much. Also Stannis bragging about his victory over a massively numerically superior force comes across as crass. Blind Melon fucked around with this message at 01:00 on Mar 4, 2015 |
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Mar 4, 2015 00:55
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It didn't have an upbeat tone in the show. It came off as Stannis crashing a peace negotiation and killing a bunch of people for no reason.
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Mar 4, 2015 00:56
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TOOT BOOT posted:It didn't have an upbeat tone in the show. It came off as Stannis crashing a peace negotiation and killing a bunch of people for no reason. I fully blame Stannis' theme music, which is over the top menacing and not at all capable of seeming triumphant. Still, as far as the Pink Letter is concerned, I'm convinced it's Ramsay acting on incomplete/misleading information. We know Stannis has the plan in place, and Manderly is likely to turncoat the second battle begins. If Stannis gives Manderly his sword as "proof" of a Bolton victory, all the easier to smuggle into Winterfell and take back the North. Plus GRRM absolutely loves the "characters acting in their best interest given incomplete info thus sealing their fate" Greek tragedy thing. You have it with the aforementioned Stannis smashing Mance at the Wall, you have it with Catelyn and her enmity with the good Lannisters and Brienne, you have it with Robb and Ned and every single loving prophecy in the books. Mike N Eich fucked around with this message at 02:28 on Mar 4, 2015 |
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Mar 4, 2015 02:22
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