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Petraeus was in a civil position and leaked civil secrets, Manning in a military position and leaked military (and civil) secrets. Power and connections difference between a former O-10 and an E-2 aside, that is the major difference. Completely different crimes under completely different legal codes.
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Mar 3, 2015 21:27
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Nonsense posted:Now that Stewart is leaving and Colbert is pretty much gone, my HBO Go is for John Oliver. I just wish they were quicker about putting his show up. Yes, it's true. There was never any Snowden moment before his passport was revoked where he made any positive statements about Russia or Putin. Don't really understand where that particular piece of misinformation originated. Everything he's said and done after being forced to accept asylum from Russia is understandable because you don't talk poo poo in Putin's Russia.
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Mar 3, 2015 21:28
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Talmonis posted:And that's what we should be decrying more than anything. Instead of calling for Manning's pardon, I want Petraeus and North behind bars where they belong. That's obviously never going to happen, but it's what we as a country should be demanding. Justice would be all of them in prison. Oliver North shouldn't be behind prison because the prosecution used testimony that he was offered immunity for. Or something like that, his conviction was overturned for it. The Pentagon Papers also had a prosecution related fuckup.
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Mar 3, 2015 21:29
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Clean DHS funding bill just passed the House, 257-167
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Mar 3, 2015 21:29
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ixnay posted:Clean DHS funding bill just passed the House, 257-167 75 RINO traitors
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Mar 3, 2015 21:30
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amanasleep posted:because you don't talk poo poo in Putin's Russia. Exactly, which is why I've never held it against him personally, even when I wasn't aware he was trying to get some place else. It seems that will be held against him until that changes, but I don't see how it can unless he literally illegally entered other countries.
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Mar 3, 2015 21:30
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ixnay posted:Clean DHS funding bill just passed the House, 257-167 And tomorrow will be all SCOTUS all the time. I wonder when we will start talking the debt ceiling given that it will have major and immediate consequences.
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Mar 3, 2015 21:31
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Venom Snake posted:Russia gave terrorists advanced anti air systems that shot down a civilian air liner. Putin and Russia and far, far worse than the USA is right now. Yeah, it totally makes sense to give America a pass on this one because they are marginally better than the Russian Federation, an expansionist, autocratic, petro-state run by corporate mobsters. I mean, it isn't like America claims to be a nation with a global mission to promote personal liberty, democratic reforms, and international cooperation and security. It isn't as if American leaders themselves claim any exceptional historical role in those aforementioned areas.
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Mar 3, 2015 21:31
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hobotrashcanfires posted:Odd that I've never heard Snowden insisting how great Russia is, nor have I heard people claiming that acknowledging bad things we've done "in the past" somehow excuses Russia. He did a interview with Putin himself on Russian TV. The overall theme was that "Pshh, we don't do any of that pesky civil rights abusing stuff in Russia!" ixnay posted:Clean DHS funding bill just passed the House, 257-167 Oh Mr. Boner you have done it again! Grand Theft Autobot posted:Yeah, it totally makes sense to give America a pass on this one because they are marginally better than the Russian Federation, an expansionist, autocratic, petro-state run by corporate mobsters. I mean, it isn't like America claims to be a nation with a global mission to promote personal liberty, democratic reforms, and international cooperation and security. It isn't as if American leaders themselves claim any exceptional historical role in those aforementioned areas. I'm not giving America a pass.
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Mar 3, 2015 21:31
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The Republicans are going to get clobbered next year real hard, it's going to own, I don't care what anybody says to the contrary.
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Mar 3, 2015 21:32
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ixnay posted:Clean DHS funding bill just passed the House, 257-167 Dem's still running things it looks like.
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Mar 3, 2015 21:34
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Fried Chicken posted:Petraeus was in a civil position and leaked civil secrets, Manning in a military position and leaked military (and civil) secrets. Power and connections difference between a former O-10 and an E-2 aside, that is the major difference. Completely different crimes under completely different legal codes. quote:The notebooks contained everything from his daily schedule to "classified information regarding the identifies of covert officers, war strategy, intelligence capabilities and mechanisms, diplomatic discussions, quotes and deliberative discussions from high-level national Security council meetings…and discussions with the President of the United states." the court documents allege. He was leaking past military and civil secrets. The kind which we have executed people for during the Cold War who weren't so connected. She could very well have been an enemy agent.
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Mar 3, 2015 21:36
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How do you even write a bill to "defund Obama's amnesty"? I mean Obama still has to pass it right? Here Mr. President, the house and senate passed this bill, they are calling it the "gently caress THE NEGRO IN THE WHITE HOUSE BILL" would you care to sign?
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Mar 3, 2015 21:38
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Talmonis posted:The kind which we have executed people for during the Cold War who weren't so connected. She could very well have been an enemy agent. E.g. JFK. 
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Mar 3, 2015 21:38
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Venom Snake posted:He did a interview with Putin himself on Russian TV. The overall theme was that "Pshh, we don't do any of that pesky civil rights abusing stuff in Russia!" There was probably a boarding pass to the US with Snowden's name on it taped to the camera.
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Mar 3, 2015 21:38
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hobbesmaster posted:There was probably a boarding pass to the US with Snowden's name on it taped to the camera. You don't get to paint yourself a martyr and then slob the nob of the next dictator who walks up to your hotel room/Russian air port urinal.
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Mar 3, 2015 21:40
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Venom Snake posted:You don't get to paint yourself a martyr and then slob the nob of the next dictator who walks up to your hotel room/Russian air port urinal. Its more you don't get to paint yourself a martyr by escaping the clutches of martyrdom.
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Mar 3, 2015 21:41
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Venom Snake posted:You don't get to paint yourself a martyr and then slob the nob of the next dictator who walks up to your hotel room/Russian air port urinal. That's easy to say from where you're sitting.
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Mar 3, 2015 21:42
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Unzip and Attack posted:That's easy to say from where you're sitting. If you want to be a martyr, you need to actually martyr yourself. Snowden is just annoying due to his inflated ego, having seen the man speak at information conferences he probably actually believes half the poo poo he says.
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Mar 3, 2015 21:44
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Talmonis posted:He was leaking past military and civil secrets. The kind which we have executed people for during the Cold War who weren't so connected. She could very well have been an enemy agent.
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Mar 3, 2015 21:48
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Venom Snake posted:If you want to be a martyr, you need to actually martyr yourself. Snowden is just annoying due to his inflated ego, having seen the man speak at information conferences he probably actually believes half the poo poo he says. ..and if he were in fact nob slobbing and praising Putin's glorious Russia endlessly, you'd probably have little trouble convincing anyone. Unfortunately your hatred for him seems to be more the result of your fevered imaginations.
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Mar 3, 2015 21:50
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Venom Snake posted:How do you even write a bill to "defund Obama's amnesty"? I mean Obama still has to pass it right? Ironically, if they wanted to "block Obama's amnesty" they would have to increase funding, by the tune of about 20 billion. Obama is able to do this because, since they only allot enough to deport 400,000 a year, he is setting the rules of prosecutorial discretion on which 400k get deported. If they put out the money to fund and deport the equivalent population of Ohio, the basis for the discretion evaporates - they would need something else to justify exercising discretion.
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Mar 3, 2015 21:52
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Fried Chicken posted:Secrets he had access to from a civil system as a result of his civil position. Whereas Manning grabbed from both a military and civil network as a result of an active duty military position. Different crimes under different legal systems. What part of this is confusing? You're making a pedantic point about the legal systems involved when the obvious pertinent difference is it's David loving Petraeus versus a private.
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Mar 3, 2015 21:53
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hobotrashcanfires posted:..and if he were in fact nob slobbing and praising Putin's glorious Russia endlessly, you'd probably have little trouble convincing anyone. Unfortunately your hatred for him seems to be more the result of your fevered imaginations. I said "Annoying" for a reason, I just think he's a dick. I don't hold any special hatred for the guy.
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Mar 3, 2015 21:55
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How dare the US cancel the passport of the International Fugitive!
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Mar 3, 2015 21:55
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Zeitgueist posted:You're making a pedantic point about the legal systems involved when the obvious pertinent difference is it's David loving Petraeus versus a private. Yes, different legal definitions, punishments, and discretion, totally pedantic and not relevant in the slightest to discussing why one party walked free and the other got courts martial.  That stuff mattered just as the rank and connections mattered. So did the timing of when Petraeus' story broke and the dissemination of what he released vs the timing of WikiLeaks and the international grandstanding it involved. Y'all want a nice neat story rather than dealing with the reality that is much murkier and more complicated.
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Mar 3, 2015 22:01
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Fried Chicken posted:Yes, different legal definitions, punishments, and discretion, totally pedantic and not relevant in the slightest to discussing why one party walked free and the other got courts martial. The relationship started while he was a general so...
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Mar 3, 2015 22:04
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Fried Chicken posted:Yes, different legal definitions, punishments, and discretion, totally pedantic and not relevant in the slightest to discussing why one party walked free and the other got courts martial. Yes there is more nuance to the story but Petraeus benefited hugely from connections and that would have been true regardless of whether it was a civil or military court, though no doubt the actual sentence would have been different. It's a pedantic distinction because people are talking about how the US does give different treatment to leakers with connections versus those without and you're talking about how there are also some other legal differences. You're not the only person in the world who's aware of nuance in the political sphere, but you're missing the forest for the trees.
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Mar 3, 2015 22:04
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Is a pension "retirement pay" that brings a retired member under the jurisdiction of the UCMJ? I know gently caress-all about military law beyond a plain-text reading of the UCMJ.
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Mar 3, 2015 22:07
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Zeitgueist posted:It's a pedantic distinction because people are talking about how the US does give different treatment to leakers with connections versus those without and you're talking about how there are also some other legal differences. You're not the only person in the world who's aware of nuance in the political sphere, but you're missing the forest for the trees. I'm not sure why that surprises anyone. In the history of the world it has never not been the norm - nor will it ever not be the norm. Boon fucked around with this message at 22:13 on Mar 3, 2015 |
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Mar 3, 2015 22:08
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Edit: Never mind, this was a reply to something several pages back and already talked to death.
DeathSandwich fucked around with this message at 22:12 on Mar 3, 2015 |
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Mar 3, 2015 22:10
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DeathSandwich posted:He'll just do the Ollie North thing and become a news pundit. I can see him falling into a "I know what it's like doing ______ I WAS THERE" schtick. His life in the limelight is far from over. He's going private equity, like ten times the money with one-tenth the exposure.
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Mar 3, 2015 22:11
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Boon posted:I'm not sure why that surprises anyone. In the history of the world it has never not been the norm - nor will it ever be the norm. I don't think it's a surprise, which is why I really don't get the point of discussing how it was civil v military in terms of preferential treatment.
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Mar 3, 2015 22:11
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They think they had the upper hand after 2014, I love to see the right wing freak out that they folded http://www.breitbart.com/big-government/2015/03/03/house-approves-clean-dhs-funding-bill/ The comments are incredible Mr Ice Cream Glove fucked around with this message at 22:15 on Mar 3, 2015 |
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Mar 3, 2015 22:12
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My Imaginary GF posted:Don't have to paint it as anti-semetic, it is anti-semetic. You use old, rich, and racist as descriptors for jews and go on to say they're kingmakers. If you don't see how this fits into anti-semitic rhetoric of jewish bankers influencing policy to get their way and controlling the media, there is nothing to discuss with you. You don't belong in any position of authority in America, and fortunately, your ilk are not represented in serious policy circles. You know that you quoted two entirely different posters there, right? Just making sure you're not going senile, Rahm.
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Mar 3, 2015 22:22
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Radbot posted:You know that you quoted two entirely different posters there, right? Just making sure you're not going senile, Rahm. The stress of the runoff and defending his personal gitmo is getting to him.
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Mar 3, 2015 22:24
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Zeitgueist posted:
Even if Petraeus was still a general he would still get less time than a private because he's a loving general. Not the ideal thing since I honestly think the higher the rank the more severe the punishment and he should be sitting in jail for life while Manning only gets at most 20 (as opposed to the 35 she actually got) but yeah, and Manning should absofuckinglutely be in jail for doing what she did while Petraeus should be locked away for way longer since he loving knew way better than Manning. That Petraeus was a civilian when this broke and they busted him on being a civilian leaking classified information to his mistress means he should be tried/treated as a civilian (like Snowden will) instead of trying him under a military court/law. Still should get 20 years while maybe Snowden gets 5 since all he did was confirm what was widely speculated upon vs. give someone access to incredibly sensitive information. Oliver North should have faced a loving firing squad. A Winner is Jew fucked around with this message at 22:32 on Mar 3, 2015 |
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Mar 3, 2015 22:28
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A Winner is Jew posted:Even if Petraeus was still a general he would still get less time than a private because he's a loving general. Not the ideal thing since I honestly think the higher the rank the more severe the punishment and he should be sitting in jail for life while Manning only gets at most 20 (as opposed to the 35 she actually got) but yeah, and Manning should absofuckinglutely be in jail for doing what she did while Petraeus should be locked away for way longer since he loving knew way better than Manning. Popehat has a good post on this topic: quote:Generally, poor people react and rich people are proactive. Petraeus is sophisticated and has assets; he could afford to hire lawyers to negotiate with the feds before they charged him. As a result, he was able to secure a pretty good outcome that controlled his risks. The feds let him plead, pre-indictment, to a misdemeanor charge of improper removal and retention of classified documents under 18 USC section 1924. That means even if the federal judge who sentences him goes on a rampage, he can't get more than a year in federal prison — and, given that it's a misdemeanor, will very likely get far less. The Factual Basis includes a United States Sentencing Guideline calculation in which the government and Petraeus agree he winds up at an Adjusted Offense Level of 8, which means the judge can give him straight probation. (https://www.popehat.com/2015/03/03/a-few-comments-on-the-david-petraeus-plea-deal-what-money-and-connections-buy-you/)
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Mar 3, 2015 22:35
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Mr Ice Cream Glove posted:They think they had the upper hand after 2014, I love to see the right wing freak out that they folded quote:I repeat. If a very few conservative GOP leaders would start a new party, 80% of republican voters, 60% of independents and 10% of democrat voters would support. Within 6 months the GOP would fall apart and remaining GOP politicians would join the new party, AND NO ONE WOULD HAVE TO PUT UP WITH THE STUPID GOP ESTABLISHMENT quote:We need an American version of UKIP, just like Farage mentioned recently. quote:tea party...time to go third party....remove yourselves from the stigma that now makes the 'rats and rinos indistinguishable....the voters need you to straighten our country out...finished with giving the misnamed "grand old party" any more chances....their word is as deceitful as the WH liar's..... 
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Mar 3, 2015 22:38
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quote:We need an American version of UKIP, just like Farage mentioned recently. I thought this was the GOP already? Also I'm pretty sure even if the Tea Party did split off, it'd just play out like Reform in Canada from 1993-2003 or so; two different parties splitting the vote on the right before merging again.
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