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thespaceinvader posted:No more so than dominion is owning/developing land in the middle ages themed. Ehhh. If you're going by Tekopo's "theme is different than setting", I'd argue that go's mechanics are more strongly tied to its theme than Dominion.
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Mar 3, 2015 23:08
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thespaceinvader posted:No more so than dominion is owning/developing land in the middle ages themed. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ow4cC-Cz5l8
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Mar 3, 2015 23:13
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JoshTheStampede posted:For me at least, its not that it has a weak or absent theme, its that it feels really...like a tech demo. It doesn't even have the trappings of a full game around it. I know, neither does poker, but I don't enjoy poker either. It's a game in the way that rock paper scissors feels like a game. Again, how does it not have the trappings of a full game around it? Because it's missing fiddly bits (it has fiddly bits, it has half a dozen mats, VP and coin tokens, albeit in the expansions)? Do fiddly bits make a game? Is rummy not a game? Hearts? Or to go another way, what about Dixit? Dixit has far fewer components and a lot less specific theme. What DOES count as something with 'the trappings of a game'? The multiplayer solitaire thing is a point, perhaps, but for two issues, that a: dominion is as much about playing your opponents as it is the board, in a lot of cases, and b: it's a lot more interactive than it first appears anyway, given that there are several end conditions and you need to be careful that you don't leave your opponents the opportunity to end the game whilst they're ahead. Single-solution boards... yeah, again, there's something there, especially only with the base set - except it's been fairly elegantly demonstrated that you can build a board from the base set alone on which there are three different, roughly equally likely ways to win, any one of which will beat one of the others and be beaten by one of the others, making it about working out what your opponent is playing and countering him, more than about just doing the beep boop solution. Some boards do have a best option, though, you're quite right. But even with that, there are better and worse ways to get to it, and in most cases, tactical choices on a hand-by-hand basis to go with the overall 'pick the beep boop strategy' decision. silvergoose posted:Ehhh. If you're going by Tekopo's "theme is different than setting", I'd argue that go's mechanics are more strongly tied to its theme than Dominion. thespaceinvader fucked around with this message at 23:20 on Mar 3, 2015 |
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Mar 3, 2015 23:17
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All things being equal I'd rather have a theme than not have a theme. I feel like it's more satisfying to come out the other end of a game having won because you did the most thing rather than just having the most points and not really knowing what that means. I can play Caverna and say "I built the best cave dwelling!" and that's enjoyable. I can play Viticulture and say "I made the best/most/whatever wine!" Good mechanics are important, but it's also fun to be able to come out the other end of a game with a little story or narrative. It doesn't mean that theme has to trump mechanics, but I think when the two play off each other it makes for a more enjoyable rewarding experience. I own Trains, and I'm looking to pick up Rising Sun whenever I can find a deal on it because it adds some "missions" for the route building in the game. And the board is interesting but it doesn't always feel balanced. The board should either be more diffuse or the game last longer in order to have more opportunities to do stuff. I certainly won't say Trains is stronger mechanically, but it's stronger thematically, and I also really enjoy train games. All that said, neither Dominion or Trains get much play in my group, because reasons.
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Mar 3, 2015 23:18
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thespaceinvader posted:You can do all that stuff in dominion as well, so... I am not saying Dominion isn't a better game mechanically, quite the opposite. But trashing VP cards is not an option in Dominion, and that seems like the closest comparison for waste in Trains. It also isn't that the theme is weak, it's that it has no real readable board state. There is nothing to visually analyse, unless you remember what who bought. To me, that makes it feel like there is no game, just a well executed mechanic. Like the engine of a Ferrari without a car attached. Trains puts a Fiat on a weaker engine, but at least it's a full car.
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Mar 3, 2015 23:21
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All other things being equal, I'd prefer to have a mechanically strong, well-designed game. If I'm going to spend a bunch of money and time on it, I'd far rather it went into making a balanced game which I have a fair chance of winning if I don't gently caress it up, than it went into shiny artwork and fun story. If I want shiny artwork and fun story, I'll read a comic book. If I'm playing a game, I want a GAME.
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Mar 3, 2015 23:22
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BonHair posted:I am not saying Dominion isn't a better game mechanically, quite the opposite. But trashing VP cards is not an option in Dominion, and that seems like the closest comparison for waste in Trains. Trains is the designers selling the engine to buy the rest of the Ferrari so you can sit in it and make VROOM noises.
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Mar 3, 2015 23:31
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BonHair posted:I am not saying Dominion isn't a better game mechanically, quite the opposite. But trashing VP cards is not an option in Dominion, and that seems like the closest comparison for waste in Trains. gently caress off. Apprentice, Salvager, Chapel (hell, part of the BASIC IDEA OF THE DECKBUILDER is to trash the lovely cards you start with, which includes oh wait, your three estates), Bishop, Trading Post, Forge, Remodel, Remake, Expand, Upgrade, Rebuild (a card whose ENTIRE PURPOSE IS TRASHING VP CARDS), Trader, Governer, Butcher, Feodum, I could go on and on and on and on there are entire strategies built around getting a little bit ahead and then buying a trashing VP so your opponents can't get them. You can't read your opponents' decks, yeah, again, I'll give you that, and the 'did he buy one province or two' thing bugs me in in-person play, because I struggle to track who bought what well enough most of the time. But you can definitely read the board state, and being aware of what;s happening with piles and the end game is a critical skill in the game. BonHair posted:It also isn't that the theme is weak, it's that it has no real readable board state. There is nothing to visually analyse, unless you remember what who bought. To me, that makes it feel like there is no game, just a well executed mechanic. Like the engine of a Ferrari without a car attached. Trains puts a Fiat on a weaker engine, but at least it's a full car. I literally don't understand what you're on about here. It has a start and an end, it has a win condition, it has tactics and strategy, it's a game. It's a full car. If we must do cars, Dominion is a well-designed race car which went through a lot of track testing and user testing until it was the best-tuned, lightest, tightest car available, but that left it without things like electric windows, sound system, and trick suspension. Trains adds shiny bits, and takes away some of the control and handling in order to give it downlight LEDs under the chassis and suspension that bounces up and down. If what you want is a race car, play dominion. If what you want is an obnoxious boy-racer-mobile, buy trains It's just as complete a game. it just doesn't perform as well. 
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Mar 3, 2015 23:31
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If you haven't tried Dominion with pre-fabricated Kingdoms meant to interact with each other, you should give it a shot. It's a lot of fun. Might feel less mechanical. http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=11100.0 http://www.dominiondeck.com/games/popular
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Mar 3, 2015 23:41
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thespaceinvader posted:The main reason it's a better game, is because it was playtested a tonne more. I feel safe in saying that despite not knowing how trains was playtested, because it was designed and published after Dominion, and there hasn't been enough time since dominion was published for it to have been playtested as much as dominion is claimed to have been. Dominion had a thorough development period, sure, but it wasn't 6 years. Dominion was created in October 2006 (see The Secret History of Dominion) and released at Essen in October 2008. Enough time has passed to playtest 3 generations of knockoffs as much as the original. The fact remains that there's no way Trains got 2 years of playtesting, but the passage of time has at least made it possible.
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Mar 3, 2015 23:42
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quote:As an addendum, don't play seven player games of 7 Wonders because it's poo poo with that many people anyway. 7 Wonders works better than almost any of its direct competitors would at 7 (which is somewhat faint praise, but I've certainly enjoyed it a lot at 6 and 7 players). 7 is just an awkward number for a single game (especially if the 7 is a mix of experienced and new players). Yes it can be a bit slow - but at least it goes as slow as your slowest player, rather than the sum slowness of all your players. For my group, we all learned the base and then the expansions at the same time, so we never had big issues with teaching. For a while, we were playing 6 or 8 player "team 7 Wonders" every day during lunch hour, and the game held up fine for prolonged, reasonably competitive play. Balance isn't perfect, but it's not terrible either, and there's a lot of variety, interaction, and potential for strategic tight play (especially with teams). I've also pulled out the base game randomly with new players a few times, and generally had very favorable response from a variety of types of players. While we don't play it much any more I'm surprised anyone has much ill-will for it; it's just generally a solid, if not overly awe-inspiring, game that happens to have the rare property of playing OK with 6-8 players.
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Mar 3, 2015 23:49
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thespaceinvader posted:Again, how does it not have the trappings of a full game around it? Because it's missing fiddly bits (it has fiddly bits, it has half a dozen mats, VP and coin tokens, albeit in the expansions)? Do fiddly bits make a game? Is rummy not a game? Hearts? Or to go another way, what about Dixit? Dixit has far fewer components and a lot less specific theme. What DOES count as something with 'the trappings of a game'? My complaints about Dominion are almost entirely "feel" based. I'm not saying it's not a game, I'm saying it feels like a halfway-developed game. If that isn't substantial enough a complaint, sorry, but it's why I don't really enjoy Dominion. I'm sure the game gets better when you put more effort into learning what boards are balanced and best, but that is a lot of effort to put into a game that I didn't really enjoy the first ten or twenty times I played it.
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Mar 3, 2015 23:52
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Half the fun in Dominion is figuring out how to make the chosen kingdom cards work well together. But that's me - i haven't played Trains before, and i probably lose more dominion than I win since I try for dumb or goofy gimmicks with the kingdom cards.
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Mar 3, 2015 23:58
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Poopy Palpy posted:Dominion had a thorough development period, sure, but it wasn't 6 years. Dominion was created in October 2006 (see The Secret History of Dominion) and released at Essen in October 2008. Enough time has passed to playtest 3 generations of knockoffs as much as the original. The fact remains that there's no way Trains got 2 years of playtesting, but the passage of time has at least made it possible. I'll concede that point, although, to some extent it depends what you consider as 'Dominion' - there are cards being released in current sets which were initially considered way back in 2006, and have been in the gradual process of being playtested since then. But that's maybe not a fair comparison with Trains.
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Mar 3, 2015 23:58
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JoshTheStampede posted:My complaints about Dominion are almost entirely "feel" based. I'm not saying it's not a game, I'm saying it feels like a halfway-developed game. If that isn't substantial enough a complaint, sorry, but it's why I don't really enjoy Dominion. There's no accounting for taste, I guess.
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Mar 3, 2015 23:59
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JoshTheStampede posted:My complaints about Dominion are almost entirely "feel" based. I'm not saying it's not a game, I'm saying it feels like a halfway-developed game. If that isn't substantial enough a complaint, sorry, but it's why I don't really enjoy Dominion. The playing interface itself isn't very ludic and there's not enough of a skinner box attached to make it feel gamey. This also contributes to some of the problems that beginners have with dominion. Buying a bunch of villages "feels" a lot better because there's an immediate reward when you play them. Playing dominion electronically helps make it gamier by introducing sound effects. There are probably some ways you could keep the mechanics the exact same but make the interface a little gamier. For example spreading out the province cards in a 4x2 row in the middle so that when you buy one it reinforces the fact that the card is physically gone, and that no one else can buy it. Silly things like that with no impact on the game mechanics can sometimes make a difference for some people. I like dominion just fine, but you're definitely not alone in your opinion here.
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Mar 4, 2015 00:27
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This confirms my impression that people who call Dominion "single player solitaire" are just really bad at it.
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Mar 4, 2015 00:33
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Wait so are we saying that skinner boxes enhance the "game-ness" of something now?
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Mar 4, 2015 00:36
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Countblanc posted:Wait so are we saying that skinner boxes enhance the "game-ness" of something now? I don't know who "we" is but I am saying that there are design elements besides just mechanics that contribute to how the game "feels" from a subjective standpoint. There's no reason why King of Tokyo needs to have cardboard standup figures to move in and out of Tokyo, but it probably makes the game feel better than keeping track on a pad of paper.
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Mar 4, 2015 00:39
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Yeah I doubt many people would even play X-wing if it was just little cardboard rectangles with stats on it.
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Mar 4, 2015 00:49
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sector_corrector posted:This confirms my impression that people who call Dominion "single player solitaire" are just really bad at it. Exactly If you aren't basing your strategy almost entirely on your opponent's moves, you aren't playing dominion correctly
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Mar 4, 2015 00:50
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My impression is also that beginners love the poo poo out of Dominion. One of the things that I really appreciated from playing Dominion a ton this weekend with some normies (and in stark contrast with 7 Wonders) was that we could all have fun while people were learning. I'd make some janky silk roads deck or something and they would putter along with some village monstrosity or maybe a deck full of torturers and even when they lost they still seemed satisfied. Furthermore, everyone's strategy and tactics are pretty much exposed for everyone, so observant players will pick up quick just by example. Whereas with 7 Wonders, most people didn't understand the victory conditions until after the fact, even after explaining it a few times in between ages. edit: Chill la Chill posted:Yeah I doubt many people would even play X-wing if it was just little cardboard rectangles with stats on it. That's kind of Disk Wars, as I understand it.
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Mar 4, 2015 00:52
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esquilax posted:I don't know who "we" is but I am saying that there are design elements besides just mechanics that contribute to how the game "feels" from a subjective standpoint. There's no reason why King of Tokyo needs to have cardboard standup figures to move in and out of Tokyo, but it probably makes the game feel better than keeping track on a pad of paper. I don't mean to sound dismissive when I say this, but do you know what a skinner box actually is? Nothing you just said relates to it, and nothing I said implied that mechanics are the only thing which contribute to a game's atmosphere.
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Mar 4, 2015 00:53
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skinner boxes should be used more often in board gaming - to stop people from playing munchkin.
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Mar 4, 2015 01:03
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Countblanc posted:I don't mean to sound dismissive when I say this, but do you know what a skinner box actually is? Nothing you just said relates to it, and nothing I said implied that mechanics are the only thing which contribute to a game's atmosphere. I was using it as shorthand for meaningless positive reinforcement for players to continue, like adding bells and whistles. I probably could have used a different term?
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Mar 4, 2015 01:08
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silvergoose posted:Ehhh. If you're going by Tekopo's "theme is different than setting", I'd argue that go's mechanics are more strongly tied to its theme than Dominion. What is the theme of Go? Autism simulator?
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Mar 4, 2015 01:09
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esquilax posted:shorthand Theirs your problem never use shorthand arround goons.
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Mar 4, 2015 01:11
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They hate it.
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Mar 4, 2015 01:25
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Deceptive Thinker posted:If you aren't basing your strategy almost entirely on your opponent's moves, you aren't playing dominion correctly I'm not good at Dominion, but do you have an example of how you'd alter your strategy based on what other people are doing, besides the obvious "Buy Moats/defense cards if people are buying attack cards"?
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Mar 4, 2015 01:25
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GrandpaPants posted:I'm not good at Dominion, but do you have an example of how you'd alter your strategy based on what other people are doing, besides the obvious "Buy Moats/defense cards if people are buying attack cards"? Edit A good example counter-buy in that situation would be Thief, while a bad purchase would be Feast. Edit2 VVVV And that. girl dick energy fucked around with this message at 01:38 on Mar 4, 2015 |
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Mar 4, 2015 01:35
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GrandpaPants posted:I'm not good at Dominion, but do you have an example of how you'd alter your strategy based on what other people are doing, besides the obvious "Buy Moats/defense cards if people are buying attack cards"? This biggest decision is deciding whether to go for provinces, or to three-pile the game out early. Making that decision correctly requires judging how fast your opponent's deck will be once it's running, and how long it's going to take them to get to that point, and comparing that against your own options.
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Mar 4, 2015 01:37
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If it was a "multiplayer solitare" the best strategy would be playing the combo deck that buys up everything on one turn. In reality that's only the best strategy when your opponents are doing the same thing but less efficiently than you
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Mar 4, 2015 01:45
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drat it board games thread, now I'm missing Isotropic again, despite the fact that I stopped playing on it before Dark Ages/Guilds came out.
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Mar 4, 2015 02:16
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GrandpaPants posted:I'm not good at Dominion, but do you have an example of how you'd alter your strategy based on what other people are doing, besides the obvious "Buy Moats/defense cards if people are buying attack cards"? To give an example from this weekend, I was playing a game with Intrigue. From the random Kingdom, there were Harem, Saboteur, Torturer, Tribute, Trading Post, Mining Village, Scout, Mascarade, Great Hall and Swindler. From the beginning, I saw that people weren't picking up the Saboteur, but did pick up the Torturer, so I used Mascarade and Trading Post to thin my deck, and rid it of curses. If my opponents were watching what I was doing, they probably would have picked up Mascarade to use against me, as I frequently had hands full of Provinces, Harems, and Gold. EDIT: Jabor posted:This biggest decision is deciding whether to go for provinces, or to three-pile the game out early. Making that decision correctly requires judging how fast your opponent's deck will be once it's running, and how long it's going to take them to get to that point, and comparing that against your own options. unpronounceable fucked around with this message at 02:34 on Mar 4, 2015 |
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Mar 4, 2015 02:28
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Does anyone have any thoughts on Warmachine High Command? FWIW, I enjoy playing Star Realms and Core Worlds so my opinions on games may not be totally in line with the majority of the thread.
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Mar 4, 2015 02:30
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unpronounceable posted:To give an example from this weekend, I was playing a game with Intrigue. From the random Kingdom, there were Harem, Saboteur, Torturer, Tribute, Trading Post, Mining Village, Scout, Mascarade, Great Hall and Swindler. Just in general your opponents made a mistake not picking up masquerade, it's one of the best actions in the game on just about any board.
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Mar 4, 2015 02:34
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Elyv posted:Just in general your opponents made a mistake not picking up masquerade, it's one of the best actions in the game on just about any board. Also isn't it the linchpin in some awesome 4 card deck hate combo?
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Mar 4, 2015 02:40
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Dr. Video Games 0069 posted:Also isn't it the linchpin in some awesome 4 card deck hate combo? Yes, you can trash your opponent's entire draw every turn by reducing your deck down to village/king's court, king's court, militia/goons/ghost ship, masquerade, but that's not really the point that I'm after. The card is just very good on its own.
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Mar 4, 2015 02:43
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Multiplayer Dominion creates a lot of choices based on pile splits. I don't want to be the third player going for Minions, so I build a hunting party deck instead. I only need a few Fishing Villages, but they are being bought by other players so maybe I get some on my $4 and even $5 turns. In a Fools Gold game, I might grab one or two to deny them to my foes and convert to real gold at the first opportunity.Elyv posted:Just in general your opponents made a mistake not picking up masquerade, it's one of the best actions in the game on just about any board. I feel like Swindlers + money, maybe even opening two Swindlers, is devastating there thanks to scout and great hall. Masquerade + silver into mining village/torturer is also pretty good of course though you might not get the village consistency you want (multiplayer).
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Mar 4, 2015 02:48
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rchandra posted:Multiplayer Dominion creates a lot of choices based on pile splits. I don't want to be the third player going for Minions, so I build a hunting party deck instead. I only need a few Fishing Villages, but they are being bought by other players so maybe I get some on my $4 and even $5 turns. In a Fools Gold game, I might grab one or two to deny them to my foes and convert to real gold at the first opportunity. Right, multiplayer.  I think I'd still open Masquerade/Silver and if I couldn't get a real torturer/village engine going(and probably even if I could), buy a second and maybe even a third Masquerade.
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Mar 4, 2015 03:21
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