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Also bear in mind that when the chips were really down, Oliver did beat Merlyn. He had to cheat horrendously to do it, but he still got the result. Merlyn may have been counting on Oliver doing it again. He may also have been viewing the whole thing as a win/win where if Oliver dies he's no worse off (still on the run from the League) but now the guy who thwarted his Undertaking and is his primary rival for Thea's loyalties would be dead. It's kind of gravy either way. This season has some problems - most particularly that they're trying to have Oliver making bad decisions due to (more) PTSD but doing a poor job of communicating that this is the reason and not just Oliver being a dope - but the Merlyn stuff is not hard to track if you think about it for a second.
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Mar 3, 2015 20:24
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I think Oliver at this point can beat Merlyn in anything except a swordfight. Maybe Merlyn thought Ollie wouldn't choose swords for his duel like an idiot when he has no real sword training.
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Mar 3, 2015 20:25
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evenworse username posted:Also bear in mind that when the chips were really down, Oliver did beat Merlyn. He had to cheat horrendously to do it, but he still got the result. Yeah alright, I can buy that.  I still can't get over Ra's offering his mantle to Ollie though. Ollie is Batman-lite at best, nowhere near as competent or intelligent or resourceful as Bruce Wayne (which makes sense since he's a lot younger). So it feels a bit undeserved. Maybe there's more to it though.
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Mar 3, 2015 20:31
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Blaze Dragon posted:I'm okay with the show, I just wish the main character stopped being so loving unlikable. I also wish Merlyn had not reappeared because he's gone down the drain now, but oh well. At least Thea is really cool now because she goes against this series' drat need of SECRETS and actually tells people poo poo. Diggle is mad awesome. My biggest complaint this season is ATOM, I just hate them cramming another hero into the picture, especially one vying for Felicity's affections. I just want her and Ollie to be in love and happy together. 
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Mar 3, 2015 20:37
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enraged_camel posted:Yeah alright, I can buy that. I don't think Raw is offering the keys to the house and immediate leadership. More the position of heir which he would train under for decades before Ra's would be gone.
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Mar 3, 2015 20:37
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greatn posted:I don't think Raw is offering the keys to the house and immediate leadership. More the position of heir which he would train under for decades before Ra's would be gone. I like this interpretation. It would allow Oliver to accept Ra's's offer and have enough time to change his mind and decline later.
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Mar 3, 2015 20:39
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King of Solomon posted:I like this interpretation. It would allow Oliver to accept Ra's's offer and have enough time to change his mind and decline later. Which will lead to him fighting Ra's again because that's a breach of oath.
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Mar 3, 2015 20:41
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MacheteZombie posted:Diggle is mad awesome. ATOM is great, and the dude is several orders of magnitude more likable than Ollie.
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Mar 3, 2015 20:53
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Again with the complaining Camel? Lighten up duder.
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Mar 3, 2015 20:55
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enraged_camel posted:ATOM is great, and the dude is several orders of magnitude more likable than Ollie. I just find his entire story to be time filler.
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Mar 3, 2015 20:58
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Rocksicles posted:Again with the complaining Camel? Lighten up duder. Everything is great about this show! Unicorns and rainbows for everyone!!!!!!!! 
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Mar 3, 2015 21:07
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Thats the way.
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Mar 3, 2015 21:08
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I like the idea of ATOM but haven't really enjoyed the execution. It's a side plot that has no relation to any major storylines except for being shoehorned into a Brick meeting and stealing Felicity away from Team Arrow and Team Flash. Also I'm irrationally annoyed that there is no actual shrinking involved. I know the reasons and I think shrinking is a dumb power anyway.
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Mar 3, 2015 21:09
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ATOM is a side story currently but they're obviously aiming for him to be a bigger part of the show, especially considering what we know about the next villain. I actually like that Felicity is involved with him now, since the whole "Ollicity" thing happened only because the writers caved in to the rabid Tumblr fanbase. Like, it was cute and endearing when Felicity had a crush on Ollie and Ollie didn't reciprocate or was oblivious, but then it became A Thing and it just didn't feel very natural.
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Mar 3, 2015 21:25
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Look, I'm all for making fun of enraged_camel, but the first two seasons of this show really were much better than this season. Multiple people have been saying the same thing for weeks now. The plots were better, the stakes were better, the action was better, the flashbacks were better...poo poo, even the damned Olicity was better. And y'know what, this happens to TV shows all the time! It's not some crazy terrible disaster! Are we all seriously going to claim that every single TV series we've ever watched have all maintained their quality (or lack thereof) through every single season? Getting indignant and huffy whenever someone mentions it isn't gonna make it less true. I mean, there used to be a time when none of us would ever need to resort to the mega-cliche response of "If you don't like it then just don't watch!!" in order to defend the show.
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Mar 3, 2015 21:39
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I'm kind of hatewatching the show too at this point.  Aphrodite posted:Season 1 wasn't as good as you remember. enraged_camel posted:I actually like that Felicity is involved with him now, since the whole "Ollicity" thing happened only because the writers caved in to the rabid Tumblr fanbase. Like, it was cute and endearing when Felicity had a crush on Ollie and Ollie didn't reciprocate or was oblivious, but then it became A Thing and it just didn't feel very natural. It made sense that she was hot for him (who wouldn't be when you see him climb a salmon ladder) but it was pretty obvious that personality and lifestyle-wise they were never meant for each other. Confusing that lust with love was weird mistake for the writers to me. Felicity is still meant to be one of the most "normal" characters, the idea of her shacking up with a murdering psychopath with a dark past constantly coming back to bite him is kind of hosed up. It's why season 2 Sara was probably the healthiest relationship Ollie ever had, because she shared his...sigh...darkness. Felicity and Diggle would've made a better potential couple. Hell, Felicity and Roy. Or literally anyone else.
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Mar 3, 2015 21:59
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Oliver is a Batman archetype and Batman's best and most enduring romance has always been with Catwoman, because Selina comes from the same mold as Bruce and the two of them are simultaneously able to break each other out of those molds. Felicity -- and Laurel -- are absolutely not Catwoman archetypes. Their relationships with him will always be a sort of experiment in dissonance. Sara was (is?) not a perfect Catwoman archetype, but she's much closer than the others, and so Ollie and her interactions have usually not been terrible. They're able to break each other of some of their worse habits without being totally, diametrically opposed in a "nag each other to death" sort of way. (Unpopular opinion: Huntress also belonged to a similar archetype, and so her brief relationship with Oliver over their shared trauma was also not completely awful. It was the rest of her personality that was.)   shipper talk
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Mar 3, 2015 22:15
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BrianWilly posted:Look, I'm all for making fun of enraged_camel, but the first two seasons of this show really were much better than this season. Multiple people have been saying the same thing for weeks now. The plots were better, the stakes were better, the action was better, the flashbacks were better...poo poo, even the damned Olicity was better. And y'know what, this happens to TV shows all the time! It's not some crazy terrible disaster! Are we all seriously going to claim that every single TV series we've ever watched have all maintained their quality (or lack thereof) through every single season? Getting indignant and huffy whenever someone mentions it isn't gonna make it less true. I mean, there used to be a time when none of us would ever need to resort to the mega-cliche response of "If you don't like it then just don't watch!!" in order to defend the show. Dude said he was literally forcing himself to watch the show and since he's the guy that called Laurel a lying whore I helpfully he suggested he stopped watching so we don't have to read his dumbass posts anymore.
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Mar 3, 2015 22:17
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BrianWilly posted:Oliver is a Batman archetype and Batman's best and most enduring romance has always been with Catwoman, because Selina comes from the same mold as Bruce and the two of them are simultaneously able to break each other out of those molds. Felicity -- and Laurel -- are absolutely not Catwoman archetypes. Their relationships with him will always be a sort of experiment in dissonance. Sara was (is?) not a perfect Catwoman archetype, but she's much closer than the others, and so Ollie and her interactions have usually not been terrible. They're able to break each other of some of their worse habits without being totally, diametrically opposed in a "nag each other to death" sort of way. Actually that makes sense.
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Mar 3, 2015 22:20
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zoux posted:Dude said he was literally forcing himself to watch the show and since he's the guy that called Laurel a lying whore I helpfully he suggested he stopped watching so we don't have to read his dumbass posts anymore. Would you say that you are... forcing yourself to read my "dumbass posts"? Maybe you should stop.
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Mar 3, 2015 22:20
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If we kicked out everyone who ever called Laurel a horrible name I think this thread would be down to you and...possibly me, though I admit I may or may not have participated in Doritogate.
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Mar 3, 2015 22:21
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Oliver Queen already has a long time partner, and they were always different.
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Mar 3, 2015 22:26
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greatn posted:I don't think Raw is offering the keys to the house and immediate leadership. More the position of heir which he would train under for decades before Ra's would be gone. I think this is it too. What R'as said he was impressed by was Oliver getting a taste of death and coming back for more, not 'dude you can totally kick my rear end already'. Ollie is going to be like a League of Assassins intern or work in the mail room for a few centuries or something.
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Mar 3, 2015 23:09
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I think the season took a little bit of a creative hit when the Flash came out, but that's not unexpected. The last few episodes feel like they're getting back on track. I'm betting that the whole "bow to a sword fight" line will result in Archery Fuckery next time Ollie and Ra's fight. Not that Ollie will win, but something entertaining will occur. I like the changing team dynamic.
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Mar 3, 2015 23:11
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BrianWilly posted:Oliver is a Batman archetype and Batman's best and most enduring romance has always been with Catwoman, because Selina comes from the same mold as Bruce and the two of them are simultaneously able to break each other out of those molds. Felicity -- and Laurel -- are absolutely not Catwoman archetypes. Their relationships with him will always be a sort of experiment in dissonance. Sara was (is?) not a perfect Catwoman archetype, but she's much closer than the others, and so Ollie and her interactions have usually not been terrible. They're able to break each other of some of their worse habits without being totally, diametrically opposed in a "nag each other to death" sort of way. I like your points, my preference for Caity Lotz notwithstanding. I didn't mind the Huntress arcs as much because I powered through S1 and S2 so while I thought it was a tad ridiculous, I never thought they were truly terrible. Does Roy fit into the Robin archetype beyond the superficial comparisons? I like the little character moments between him and Ollie, like that time they had a late night dinner at Dig's and were each other's dates.
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Mar 3, 2015 23:17
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Xtanstic posted:I like your points, my preference for Caity Lotz notwithstanding. I didn't mind the Huntress arcs as much because I powered through S1 and S2 so while I thought it was a tad ridiculous, I never thought they were truly terrible. Does Roy fit into the Robin archetype beyond the superficial comparisons? I like the little character moments between him and Ollie, like that time they had a late night dinner at Dig's and were each other's dates. I feel like Roy and Ollie just hanging out doesn't happen enough.
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Mar 3, 2015 23:22
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OB_Juan posted:I think the season took a little bit of a creative hit when the Flash came out, but that's not unexpected. The last few episodes feel like they're getting back on track. I'm betting that the whole "bow to a sword fight" line will result in Archery Fuckery next time Ollie and Ra's fight. Not that Ollie will win, but something entertaining will occur. I hope so. They've been doing a reasonably good job (again, with the 'Batman with the numbers filed off' approach) of having Ollie lose the initial fight with people but then win the rematch by cheating (Merlyn and the Flash particularly stand out) and I would not mind if that's essentially his gimmick going forward. It makes sense that 'guy with a bow' doesn't win every fight against people with crazy powers, but if he has time to plan for the encounter and stack the deck in his favour he can handle all sorts of things.
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Mar 3, 2015 23:24
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MacheteZombie posted:I feel like Roy and Ollie just hanging out doesn't happen enough. Same with him and Dig. When's the last time we saw a Big Belly Burger 
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Mar 3, 2015 23:35
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Xtanstic posted:Same with him and Dig. When's the last time we saw a Big Belly Burger Ollie, Roy, and Dig go camping - 3 episode arc.
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Mar 3, 2015 23:38
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Xtanstic posted:Same with him and Dig. When's the last time we saw a Big Belly Burger Well that's awkward since Diggle broke up with the lady who works there.
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Mar 3, 2015 23:40
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YOU HAVE FAILED THIS CAMPSITE!
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Mar 3, 2015 23:43
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With his identity not being a secret from anyone and no company to keep up CEO appearances for there is no Oliver Queen anymore. Same for Roy, he didn't have much of a life outside dating Thea. So actually what the show needs is more secrets.
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Mar 3, 2015 23:43
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MacheteZombie posted:Ollie, Roy, and Dig go camping - 3 episode arc. Thea, Laurel and Nyssa have a sleepover. Black Canary gets a makeover and Thea chops up some vases. evenworse username posted:Well that's awkward since Diggle broke up with the lady who works there. Oh right I forgot about that. That explains why the only time we've seen it this season was during the Flash crossover. He had to get out of town for his burger fix.
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Mar 3, 2015 23:44
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evenworse username posted:I hope so. They've been doing a reasonably good job (again, with the 'Batman with the numbers filed off' approach) of having Ollie lose the initial fight with people but then win the rematch by cheating (Merlyn and the Flash particularly stand out) and I would not mind if that's essentially his gimmick going forward. It makes sense that 'guy with a bow' doesn't win every fight against people with crazy powers, but if he has time to plan for the encounter and stack the deck in his favour he can handle all sorts of things. Season 4: Slade steals Arrow's research on how to take down every hero he fights alongside.
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Mar 4, 2015 00:19
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Thea takes Ollie's plans to start and control a gang war and attempts to use them to clear up the Glades.
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Mar 4, 2015 00:25
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evenworse username posted:I hope so. They've been doing a reasonably good job (again, with the 'Batman with the numbers filed off' approach) of having Ollie lose the initial fight with people but then win the rematch by cheating (Merlyn and the Flash particularly stand out) and I would not mind if that's essentially his gimmick going forward. It makes sense that 'guy with a bow' doesn't win every fight against people with crazy powers, but if he has time to plan for the encounter and stack the deck in his favour he can handle all sorts of things. I'd still rather Ras beat him again. He lets Ollie live but asks him to stop bothering him with these pointless duels.
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Mar 4, 2015 00:33
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BrianWilly posted:Oliver is a Batman archetype and Batman's best and most enduring romance has always been with Catwoman, because Selina comes from the same mold as Bruce and the two of them are simultaneously able to break each other out of those molds. Felicity -- and Laurel -- are absolutely not Catwoman archetypes. Their relationships with him will always be a sort of experiment in dissonance. Sara was (is?) not a perfect Catwoman archetype, but she's much closer than the others, and so Ollie and her interactions have usually not been terrible. They're able to break each other of some of their worse habits without being totally, diametrically opposed in a "nag each other to death" sort of way. In other words bring on Lady Shiva for Ollie. Oh and Cheshire for Roy tia.
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Mar 4, 2015 00:48
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CAPTAIN CAPSLOCK posted:I'd still rather Ras beat him again. He lets Ollie live but asks him to stop bothering him with these pointless duels. Ra's: I want you to be my protoge! Ollie: Sorry, going the other way on this whole killing thing. Ra's: Damnit. Fine. Will you at least stop wasting everyone's with all these duels, then? Ollie: Not 'till I win. Ra's:  Ollie: Yeah, okay. Just, leave my sister and friends alone. Ra's: Deal. 
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Mar 4, 2015 01:21
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I'm actually getting less and less okay with Ollie as an ersatz Batman. Where's swashbuckling philanthropist Ollie with a martial artist girlfriend who drives bikes? Where's the fun? They should've worked through the whole tragic back story thing already  e: also how did I miss that was Katana in the flashbacks? 
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Mar 4, 2015 01:38
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Chokes McGee posted:I'm actually getting less and less okay with Ollie as an ersatz Batman. Where's swashbuckling philanthropist Ollie with a martial artist girlfriend who drives bikes? Where's the fun? They should've worked through the whole tragic back story thing already quote:e: also how did I miss that was Katana in the flashbacks? They never called her that by name, but yeah it was always her. Good news, though, at some point later in the season she'll suit up, presumably in the Starling plotline. I'm really excited about that.
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Mar 4, 2015 01:51
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