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New Leaf posted:If I found out my race had that kind of power, that would become my entire life. There would be businesses devoted to almost killing you, then nursing you back to health. Saiyans would rule the loving universe. I don't understand why Vegeta and Nappa didn't beat the gently caress out of each other daily to try to become stronger than Frieza, or at least work their way up the food chain. Theoretically zenkai is a racial ability that simply pushes you to slightly over the power of the last foe to try and kill you. The real reason for this is that the plot just works out that way, because Toriyama. But if we examine it as an in-universe phenomenon then the zenkai is an ability much akin to Doomsday's ability from DC Comics. Doomsday's superpower is literally "can't be killed the same way twice", he always revives and evolves a defense mechanism so he can't be killed with that method again. Zenkai is the same, but without the death requirement. You just have to almost die and your zenkai superpower will kick in and push your power level up just enough to not get your rear end handed to you again by the last guy that handed it to you. Therefore two Saiyans repeatedly beating each other senseless wouldn't really work, as the zenkai boosts would only constantly push them slightly above each other and thus be so trivial as to make the entire endeavor a waste of time. The workaround for this however is to go find Beerus, punch him in the mouth, and hope the subsequent beating stops just short of killing you. Zenkai probably wouldn't be enough to push you up to slightly above god-level because we'll just assume its not quite that broken, but it should be sufficient to gain you an instant levelup to Freeza tier or thereabouts. This is also my theory on why my Saiyan character is so powerful in Xv. He goes back in time so much to fight opponents way above his power level and gets slaughtered so much that his zenkai takes pity on him.
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Mar 4, 2015 19:49
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they delayed the latin america release of the new movie to november fffuuuuuuu!
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Mar 4, 2015 19:50
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Esroc posted:Theoretically zenkai is a racial ability that simply pushes you to slightly over the power of the last foe to try and kill you. The real reason for this is that the plot just works out that way, because Toriyama. But if we examine it as an in-universe phenomenon then the zenkai is an ability much akin to Doomsday's ability from DC Comics. Doomsday's superpower is literally "can't be killed the same way twice", he always revives and evolves a defense mechanism so he can't be killed with that method again. Except Krillin blasted Vegeta through the chest and that boost put him at Frieza level, but Krillin wasn't even on Vegeta's level to begin with.
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Mar 4, 2015 19:52
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New Leaf posted:Except Krillin blasted Vegeta through the chest and that boost put him at Frieza level, but Krillin wasn't even on Vegeta's level to begin with. Shut uuuuuuup.
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Mar 4, 2015 19:54
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projecthalaxy posted:The Ginyus are the best, and should have stuck around (at least the Captain) as plucky comic relief as they try to whip HFIL into shape.i want to see their day to day adventures. Ginyus and Saiyaman duo join forces. They become the Saiya Force and pose at criminals all day, every day.
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Mar 4, 2015 19:55
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New Leaf posted:Except Krillin blasted Vegeta through the chest and that boost put him at Frieza level, but Krillin wasn't even on Vegeta's level to begin with. Well to be accurate it put him at 'Freeza's whipping boy' level but close enough.
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Mar 4, 2015 19:55
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Esroc posted:Theoretically zenkai is a racial ability that simply pushes you to slightly over the power of the last foe to try and kill you. The real reason for this is that the plot just works out that way, because Toriyama. But if we examine it as an in-universe phenomenon then the zenkai is an ability much akin to Doomsday's ability from DC Comics. Doomsday's superpower is literally "can't be killed the same way twice", he always revives and evolves a defense mechanism so he can't be killed with that method again. You are a credit to our discussions. Please never stop. New Leaf posted:Except Krillin blasted Vegeta through the chest and that boost put him at Frieza level, but Krillin wasn't even on Vegeta's level to begin with. Stop bringing in your LOGIC and busting up perfectly valid hypotheses.
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Mar 4, 2015 19:59
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Zenkai is the worst thing ever.
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Mar 4, 2015 20:08
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Some Numbers posted:Stop bringing in your LOGIC and busting up perfectly valid hypotheses. Sorry, I'll quit making GBS threads on my favorite punchman show. So hey, how about that new Frieza look?
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Mar 4, 2015 20:10
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ImpAtom posted:Well, they enjoyed murdering children so they weren't really that good. No did you not listen to the song. They shut up whining children not kill them. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YyAEB8TPs1g
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Mar 4, 2015 20:47
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MonsterEnvy posted:No did you not listen to the song. They shut up whining children not kill them. They shut up crying children because their name strikes that much fear.
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Mar 4, 2015 20:55
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Some of the Ginyu poses are really good in Xenoverse, too. I got Kami's Z-Soul which adds a regen effect when you power up, I started using Pose F which transfers all damage to your stamina, and also I'm a Namekian so I regen naturally. Pretty good way to hold on in tough fights. Of course, now I have a much better Z-Soul so I'm thinking of changing up my strategy.
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Mar 4, 2015 21:29
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Blue Star posted:I'm glad power levels are gone as a concept. However, is Toriyama really phasing out the Super Saiyan transformation? I'm not opposed to him getting rid of all these superfluous transformations, but the Super Saiyan is pretty iconic to the series. I feel like he's returning the Super Saiyan transformation to its original status of "it's what happens when a Saiyan gets pissed off" regardless of power level and Super Saiyan God. Works better than being a sequence of different forms to signify a Saiyan's growing power like it was in DBZ imo
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Mar 4, 2015 21:30
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ImpAtom posted:No, it applies to other characters too. Guldo could slap the poo poo out of Nappa even without using any fancy time stopping or psychic powers. Just the image of that is endlessly amusing. Even Raditz looked really loving buff and strong but was on the same tier as those helmet wearing frieza goons with the arm blasters.
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Mar 4, 2015 21:31
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Shyrka posted:
Raspberry, Monrei and Navel.
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Mar 4, 2015 21:38
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The zenkai thing is super dumb because not only does it rely on having plentiful access to healing spooge, it also relies on literally entrusting your life to another Saiyan. A race where, of the three members you could (contemporarily, before Frieza blew up the planet) trust to not just laugh and let you die/kill you themselves to take out the competition, one (Kakkarot) was a literal child with a traumatic brain injury* and the other two (Tarble and Gine) hadn't been invented yet. Remember, Bardock was an aberration within Saiyan culture for being too soft, and he literally committed genocide as "meh, it's a living". *I know the timeline isn't quite accurate for this, which really just makes my case stronger
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Mar 4, 2015 21:46
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Shyrka posted:Guldo could slap the poo poo out of Nappa even without using any fancy time stopping or psychic powers. Just the image of that is endlessly amusing. Hahaha power levels and such, but those goons are actually rated higher than Raditz on the scouters. Raditz is the Yamcha of the Saiyan race.
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Mar 4, 2015 21:52
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Aurain posted:Hahaha power levels and such, but those goons are actually rated higher than Raditz on the scouters. Raditz is the Yamcha of the Saiyan race. To be fair Goku was still shittier than Raditz when they first fought. If he hadn't died maybe he'd have gotten better. I mean his dad and brother both became Super Saiyans, he clearly had some good genetics there! ImpAtom fucked around with this message at 21:59 on Mar 4, 2015 |
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Mar 4, 2015 21:54
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Mar 4, 2015 21:55
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Aurain posted:Hahaha power levels and such, but those goons are actually rated higher than Raditz on the scouters. Raditz is the Yamcha of the Saiyan race. There's a reason TFS continually makes fun of Raditz in the same way they make fun of Yamcha.
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Mar 4, 2015 21:55
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ImpAtom posted:To be fair Goku was still shittier than Raditz when they first fought. If he hadn't died maybe he'd have gotten better. I mean his dad and brother bother became Super Saiyans, he clearly had some good genetics there! Episode of Bardock is the worst thing.
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Mar 4, 2015 21:56
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ImpAtom posted:To be fair Goku was still shittier than Raditz when they first fought. If he hadn't died maybe he'd have gotten better. I mean his dad and brother bother became Super Saiyans, he clearly had some good genetics there! I would say you could argue that Goku gets a bit of a pass because he bonked his head and forgot how to be a Saiyan, but then I remembered that he lives to fight regardless, so yeah, maybe Raditz would have had an upside if he wasn't Raditz.
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Mar 4, 2015 21:57
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MonsterEnvy posted:Raspberry, Monrei and Navel. Endless clones. gently caress those guys. Bardock-killing bastards..
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Mar 4, 2015 21:58
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It's sort of weird to me that Radditz is just kind of ignored. You'd feel like Goku's Evil Brother would be ripe for like The Return of Radditz OAV where he trained in hell and has new superpowers or some poo poo. Goku's barely-canon dad gets more focus than his evil brother who lead to his first death
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Mar 4, 2015 22:08
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Goku had another evil twin brother according to a bunch of dubs for some bizarre reason. Turles! The Swedish dub even called him Raditz, according to the wiki. I guess that counted as the evil twin OVA despite them being unrelated.
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Mar 4, 2015 22:16
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Some Numbers posted:Episode of Bardock is the worst thing. this guy gets it.
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Mar 4, 2015 22:20
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Aurain posted:Goku had another evil twin brother according to a bunch of dubs for some bizarre reason. Some people think all Saiyans look alike. 
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Mar 4, 2015 22:23
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After playing Xenoverse, I think I get what the deal with Raditz was a lot better. He wasn't super-strong like everyone else were, but his techniques were loving murderous. He quite obviously had beams that outdoes Freeza in the form of Double Sunday and Weekend. And then we have Nappa's Giant Storm, which I am quite honestly wiping the floor with every PvE fight. MonsterEnvy posted:Raspberry, Monrei and Navel. Somebody is equally traumatized as I am from trying to get Super Vegeta. I think the biggest crime of power levels for Freeza were that they were just as useful as the temperature of the food you keep in a fridge in determining how edible it is.
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Mar 4, 2015 22:33
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Hey you skipped Vegeta getting wrecked by Recoome and Cell.
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Mar 4, 2015 23:11
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to be fair he beat goku the first time he fought him and he came back and killed zarbon.
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Mar 4, 2015 23:25
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Aurain posted:I would say you could argue that Goku gets a bit of a pass because he bonked his head and forgot how to be a Saiyan, but then I remembered that he lives to fight regardless, so yeah, maybe Raditz would have had an upside if he wasn't Raditz. Goku is the sweetest, nicest saiyan who ever lived, due to brain damage, and he still lives to fight so much that he has trouble even contemplating the fact that his son doesn't want to spend his life murdering/almost being murdered by insane monsters. Forgetting databooks here, because they are unreliable and lovely, what are all the actual, in manga, powerlevels that we're told, let's see, for easy reference Raditz code:code:Namek code:code:-A whole bunch of characters never get their power levels stated at all. Practically the entire Ginyu force, as well as Dodoria and Zarbon get nothing, which kind of backs up what I've thought for a while, that Dodoria, Cui, Vegeta and first Form Zarbon weren't really in much of a hierarchy, but sat around approximately the same level. Narratively, the three dudes Vegeta fights' power levels don't need to be different at all, since Vegeta, after gaining some strength on Earth, beats them all with pretty much equal effort (ie, zero until Zarbon hulks out). - It's no wonder nerds are still arguing over this, despite the evidence presented. For one thing, the Android part of the wiki I got all this from is really badly organised, it lists certain powerlevels as having manga backing, despite incorrect assumptions from non-manga sources. They say that all of the dudes Freeza brings to Earth must be at least 75k+ because Freeza is confident they can kill Krillin, whose powerlevel of 75k is just pulled out of someone's rear end, despite such a power meaning they are better than everyone in Freeza's army aside from Freeza, Ginyu and maybe one or two of the other Ginyu's maybe and he just didn't bring them to Namek. And King Cold's powerlevel is estimated based on "King cold is not as strong as Freeza" and "King Cold is stronger than Freeza!" despite that second statement being clear anime or dub (can't remember) bullshit. I think the rest is fine but gently caress looking this poo poo up myself. - As has been stated by myself and others, power levels remain bullshit. - Aside from being bullshit, they don't even matter that much in the overall narrative. - Again, the scouters the Ginyus bring are brand new. We can give Ginyu himself the benefit of the doubt, since he maybe tested himself with the new machine and it worked on Goku who was stronger, but unless Freeza has a bing honking immobile scouter somewhere, all his claims of his powerlevel are clear bullshit, since he doesn't have a machine which can measure how strong he is. Rohan Kishibe fucked around with this message at 23:31 on Mar 4, 2015 |
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Mar 4, 2015 23:28
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You mixed up Nappa's readings. Krillin was lower than Piccolo.
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Mar 4, 2015 23:36
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Mordaedil posted:After playing Xenoverse, I think I get what the deal with Raditz was a lot better. He wasn't super-strong like everyone else were, but his techniques were loving murderous. He quite obviously had beams that outdoes Freeza in the form of Double Sunday and Weekend. Seriously, Raditz's moveset is gross. Vacation Delete also rules: AoE, multi-hit, and a stun effect? It's like he was the mage of the remaining Saiyans.
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Mar 4, 2015 23:47
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It's always seemed to me that power levels are accurate, the scouters aren't wrong or anything, but everyone in Frieza's army is bad at suppressing their strength. Why would they need to? They run the galaxy, it's not like they need to hide from anybody. So when the Saiyans run into the Earthlings, who are all accustomed to relatively advanced ki manipulation, they underestimate them based on an otherwise accurate scouter readout. When the fight against Nappa happens all those levels are ostensibly correct, Gohan, Krillin, and Piccolo are all "powered up" so to speak, again, because why wouldn't they? They're fighting for their lives, there's no reason to hide their power at that point. But being skilled at ki manipulation also means that they can continue to push their limits higher than their supposed maximum, particularly when their emotions are running high or they're reeeeeally going for it like Piccolo's Special Beam Cannon, or as a way later example, Vegeta's Final Flash. But as is evidenced by their continual amazement at simple powering up, Frieza's guys are all accustomed to a complete lack of ki manipulation and a static strength level for everyone they scan on a scouter. Presumably a good deal of the higher level guys like Dodoria, Zarbon, and the Ginyus are just freaks like Frieza who are naturally super strong without earning it, otherwise they might have learned about ki. Vegeta learning to hide his power level and sense others' shows Saiyans are pretty naturally adept at that sort of thing, but they never had any reason to learn it. So yeah it's less that power levels are bullshit, and more that they're just unreliable against a foe skilled in ki manipulation because his strength will fluctuate wildly, and this winds up being the downfall of a lot of Frieza's men, since they're so used to it being the one single way to assess a threat. Had power levels not been run into the ground halfway through Namek and continued into later sagas, it could've been used as an easy, general way to measure a character's strength as opposed to just comparing them to other characters. A lot of the discussion about who could beat who in the Buu Saga is facilitated by speaking in relative terms, such as "X character is stronger than Y, so Z is somewhere in the middle because he lost to X but lasted longer than Y did, and..." TriffTshngo fucked around with this message at 23:54 on Mar 4, 2015 |
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Mar 4, 2015 23:50
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Scouters even old ones. Can read High Power Levels like Freeza's They only break when power levels rise suddenly all at once faster then they can keep up with them. Anyway they don't matter too much.
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Mar 4, 2015 23:51
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TriffTshngo posted:It's always seemed to me that power levels are accurate, the scouters aren't wrong or anything, but everyone in Frieza's army is bad at suppressing their strength. Why would they need to? They run the galaxy, it's not like they need to hide from anybody. So when the Saiyans run into the Earthlings, who are all accustomed to relatively advanced ki manipulation, they underestimate them based on an otherwise accurate scouter readout. When the fight against Nappa happens all those levels are ostensibly correct, Gohan, Krillin, and Piccolo are all "powered up" so to speak, again, because why wouldn't they? They're fighting for their lives, there's no reason to hide their power at that point. But being skilled at ki manipulation also means that they can continue to push their limits higher than their supposed maximum, particularly when their emotions are running high or they're reeeeeally going for it like Piccolo's Special Beam Cannon, or as a way later example, Vegeta's Final Flash. But as is evidenced by their continual amazement at simple powering up, Frieza's guys are all accustomed to a complete lack of ki manipulation and a static strength level for everyone they scan on a scouter. Presumably a good deal of the higher level guys like Dodoria, Zarbon, and the Ginyus are just freaks like Frieza who are naturally super strong without earning it, otherwise they might have learned about ki. Vegeta learning to hide his power level and sense others' shows Saiyans are pretty naturally adept at that sort of thing, but they never had any reason to learn it. Yeah, we don't even know if, for example, Cui and Dodoria's readings on Vegeta are accurate since by then he had started to learn Ki manipulation so his exact strength is unknown. All we do know is when he arrived on Namek, he was stronger than Zarbon's base form but not his transformed state, which doesn't really tell us anything.
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Mar 4, 2015 23:54
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TriffTshngo posted:It's always seemed to me that power levels are accurate, the scouters aren't wrong or anything, but everyone in Frieza's army is bad at suppressing their strength. Why would they need to? They run the galaxy, it's not like they need to hide from anybody. So when the Saiyans run into the Earthlings, who are all accustomed to relatively advanced ki manipulation, they underestimate them based on an otherwise accurate scouter readout. When the fight against Nappa happens all those levels are ostensibly correct, Gohan, Krillin, and Piccolo are all "powered up" so to speak, again, because why wouldn't they? They're fighting for their lives, there's no reason to hide their power at that point. Actually Nappa's readings were wrong. Vegeta even told him to put his scouter away because it was pointless to scan them as they could suppress their power levels and were capable of making them rise and fall depending on the situation. Pointing out they would keep it low to make them underestimate them and keep their guards down. This proved to be correct as they were capable of easily beating the Saibamen who were on par with Raditz. To be correct it was not the correct power level MonsterEnvy fucked around with this message at 00:01 on Mar 5, 2015 |
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Mar 4, 2015 23:56
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MonsterEnvy posted:Actually Nappa's readings were wrong. Vegeta even told him to put his scouter away because it was pointless to scan them as they could suppress their power levels and were likely holding back their full ones to make them underestimate them. This proved to be correct as they were capable of easily beating the Saibamen who were on par with Raditz. Yeah I'd wager that Piccolo, Krillin and maybe some of the others had to be at least twice as high as their reading given how effortlessly they dispatched the Saibamen, which would still put them on a tier below Nappa. Gohan obviously had power spikes whenever he got emotional or enraged.
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Mar 5, 2015 00:01
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MonsterEnvy posted:Actually Nappa's readings were wrong. Vegeta even told him to put his scouter away because it was pointless to scan them as they could suppress their power levels and were likely holding back their full ones to make them underestimate them. This proved to be correct as they were capable of easily beating the Saibamen who were on par with Raditz. Ah. Yeah it's been awhile since I watched the full Saibamen/Nappa fights. Never found that part super riveting compared to Goku vs Vegeta and I saw it enough times repeated on Toonami, so I was just assuming on the context for those readings.
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Mar 5, 2015 00:02
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Raditz indirectly influenced everything. If Raditz never arrived, Goku and Piccolo would never have teamed up. If Goku and Piccolo never teamed up, Goku never have sacrificed himself. If Goku never sacrifice himself, Piccolo never would have accidentally told the Saiyans about the Dragon Balls. If they Saiyans never heard of the Dragon Balls, they never would have come to Earth. If the Saiyans never arrived, they never would have killed Piccolo. If Piccolo never died, the Z Fighters never would have traveled to Namek for the Dragon Balls. If the Z Fighters never traveled to Namek, Goku never would have become a Super Saiyan nor would Vegeta have ever become an ally. If Goku never would have become a Super Saiyan, he'd never had the power to fight off even Android #19 nor would anyone have the idea to surpass a Super Saiyan. If Vegeta never became an ally, Bulma never would have had Trunks. If Bulma never had Trunks, there would be no way for the Z Fighters to know about the incoming threat. If Raditz never showed up, the Androids would still arrive on time, and they'd still have the power to dominate Super Saiyans. The Z Fighters would have been utterly screwed because they still wouldn't have the power to fight off Vegeta and Nappa, much less the Androids.
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