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thatfatkid posted:Targetting one consumer product because it's bad for the consumers health but not targetting other far more pervasive ones is in my opinion cynical. I want you to understand how naive this argument is from a policy framework. Remember that correlation and causation are the statistical tools that should be used to generally guide government policy. In cigarettes, you have one of the clearest C&C arguments possible. Cigarettes, while not guaranteeing cancer, emphysema, liver disease and stroke, are one of the strongest factors found i.e., out of the myriad environmental inputs, cigarettes have one of the clearest correlation trends (with causative pathways well-documented) with any number of diseases. The same argument applies for fatty foods, sugar intake and sedentary lifestyles, however isolating the individual cause is next to impossible as it is tied up with the entire consumption driven lifestyle we lead, the plentiful availability of cheap food, links between socio-economic status and available food preparation time, and finally food quality and socio-economic region (poor places tend to have shittier food choices to begin with). We can accurately target cigarettes, targeting lovely food requires an about-face on several fundamental fronts. Wealth and education play an enormous role in obesity too, the poorer you are, the fatter you (generally) are. Saying that because we targeted one (initially) and not the other, that the act is 'cynical' is a really ignorant view of the situation policy makers are currently confronted with. I completely agree with you though that alcohol and crap food need to be targeted on the same level (ASAP), I'm quibbling with your argument that because the government didn't legislate the same barriers to all bad products at the same time, the government is therefore cynically going after the tobacco governments to buy votes. If anything, this probably would have cost the ALP votes, it definitely cost them/us a poo poo-ton of money defending the decisions in courts around the world.
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Mar 5, 2015 14:33
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I like that we've all ignored Labor's policy on alcopops.
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Mar 5, 2015 14:34
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thatfatkid posted:I don't smoke. 1: Calling what dominoes serves "Pizza" is like calling plankton "beef". 2: Being a lardy fucker doesn't harm anyone but yourself. Smoking harms not only the user, but everyone around them. I thought I covered that, but you seem to be locked into a "Me VS Them" mentality and just lashing out without applying your thinking-brain.
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Mar 5, 2015 14:37
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Les Affaires posted:My curiosity is piqued. How would we legislate this? Qualify "junk food" as something, ban advertising of said "junk food". Kinda like how it's illegal to advertise tobacco products... Doctor Spaceman posted:I like that we've all ignored Labor's policy on alcopops. Hmm yes pandering to the public about underage drinking and targetting one specific type of product and then for the legislation to be ultimately rejected. They sure did go hard against alcohol.
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Mar 5, 2015 14:37
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thatfatkid posted:Plain packaging should've been introduced for junk food and alcohol as well if they were really concerned about the health of the citizenry. It was simply a cynical attack against the tobacco companies to buy votes. Holy poo poo. Pickled Tink posted:You eating a chocolate bar or shoveling a burger down your noise hole doesn't make my windpipe contract and throat burn. Guess what you using your tobacco products around me does mate. I also love how you dismissed this entire argument out of hand purely because you apparently don't smoke, an assumption made, by the way, because it's quite often smokers who have the most retarded arguments. Let me see if I can find you an example. thatfatkid posted:Plain packaging should've been introduced for junk food and alcohol as well if they were really concerned about the health of the citizenry. It was simply a cynical attack against the tobacco companies to buy votes.
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Mar 5, 2015 14:38
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Let's go back to housing chat, we've had some loon come in and say we're all being too mean to tony abbott and if we wanted to be able to criticise tony abbott we should have criticised gillard more, and now we've got another loon saying that unless you literally cure everything ever, picking the battles you can win is just another way of saying you're a disingenuous sneak
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Mar 5, 2015 14:39
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Yeah, I should have phrased that differently; the alcopops thing was a hilarious fuckup, and my point was that we were all ignoring it because it was so forgettable and dumb.
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Mar 5, 2015 14:40
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thatfatkid posted:Qualify "junk food" as something, ban advertising of said "junk food". Kinda like how it's illegal to advertise tobacco products... Well okay, the law in Australia defines Tobacco products as the following: quote:Tobacco product means processed tobacco, or any product that contains tobacco, that: So how would we define Junk Food in the same way?
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Mar 5, 2015 14:41
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Sulla-Marius 88 posted:Let's go back to housing chat, we've had some loon come in and say we're all being too mean to tony abbott and if we wanted to be able to criticise tony abbott we should have criticised gillard more, and now we've got another loon saying that unless you literally cure everything ever, picking the battles you can win is just another way of saying you're a disingenuous sneak Please point out where i have ever defend Tony Abbott. gently caress me dead you are stupid. e: Just realised the first part of that post was not about me (i think). Sorry.
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Mar 5, 2015 14:41
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show us on the brown paper bag where the little black box touched you
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Mar 5, 2015 14:42
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Doctor Spaceman posted:Yeah, I should have phrased that differently; the alcopops thing was a hilarious fuckup, and my point was that we were all ignoring it because it was so forgettable and dumb. Alcopops? Are you talking Mike's Hard Lemonaid or are you talking Crispin Hard Cider? How is the craftbrew scene in australia?
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Mar 5, 2015 14:42
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thatfatkid posted:Please point out where i have ever defend Tony Abbott. you're loon #2 not loon #1 gently caress me dead you are stupid.
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Mar 5, 2015 14:43
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thatfatkid posted:Please point out where i have ever defend Tony Abbott. stop posting immediately, also stop posting forever For the second time now, I was not referring to you in that post (or at least half of it) stop the posts
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Mar 5, 2015 14:43
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Mithranderp posted:To a football star, 2500 is nothing. I'd be more in favour of community service and drug education than of jail time or a fine. Also, if I heard the story right, he bought 12.5 grams of cocaine on three separate occasions - unless you have a good dealer (which to be fair he probably had) or are in a cocaine-heavy area (which the Gold Coast most certainly is) you'll be paying about that much for the coke itself. starkebn posted:Someone at the ABC is reading this thread - this afternoon on Hack (5:30 triplej) they're talking about how the housing market is poo poo for younger people. They even specifically had a spew about how boomers have hosed it for the rest of us. funnily enough it is not this thread, but Good Thread favourite Courtney Barnett which has motivated this (her latest single is about how poo poo it is to try to buy a house in melbourne)
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Mar 5, 2015 14:44
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My Imaginary GF posted:Alcopops? Are you talking Mike's Hard Lemonaid or are you talking Crispin Hard Cider? Labor decided (for whatever reason) to increase the tax on pre-mixed drinks in 2008. While sales dropped it didn't really have any good public health benefits since people switched to other drinks (ciders and spirits).
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Mar 5, 2015 14:45
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Didn't that tax never even pass senate, despite it being collected for a period?
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Mar 5, 2015 14:47
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Doctor Spaceman posted:The former. I'm also reminded of how if we crack down on the international heroin supply we'll magically make all these people bett- oh hang on what's all this meth epidemic talk
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Mar 5, 2015 14:47
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Adnar posted:Didn't that tax never even pass senate, despite it being collected for a period?
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Mar 5, 2015 14:49
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My Imaginary GF posted:Alcopops? Are you talking Mike's Hard Lemonaid or are you talking Crispin Hard Cider? Basically shorthand for any alcoholic product combining spiritous liquor with non alcoholic mixer in a prepackaged form. KRudd introduced a higher level of excise on these products and it honestly wouldn't have been as awful a policy as it was if the way we taxed alcohol in this country wasn't so loving awful. The one cool upside was that Smirnoff tried to introduce a neutral flavoured malt liquor style beverage to skirt the laws so I finally knew what Americans were talking about I can't find any evidence the tax wasn't passed although I remember hearing the same thing as said above, that it was never passed and had just been collected, but I can't find anything to verify this and the prices are certainly the same adjusted for CPI and whatever other yearly increases as they were when it was "passed" so I'm skeptical of that claim. Craftbrew scene is fine, by a lot of definitions about 80% of "craft beer" by volume is made by subsidiaries of Anheuser-Busch and SABMiller and its the fastest growing alcohol category behind cider, if you exclude anything made by those companies its still pretty good but very Victoria-centric, with a really good scene over in pockets of Western Australia as well. Beer in general had a huge boost from the alcopops tax, but a side note: per capita Australians still drink more bourbon than any other country in the world and a really huge chunk of that comes from RTD cans of bourbon and coke. RTD is a less pejorative way of saying alcopops btw and i'm going to stop saying alcopops to refer to the whole category because its really meant to refer to incredibly sweet, not particularly alcoholic vodka/white rum based RTDs that were marketed to teenagers before they were basically blown out of existence. Also doing some reading, Americans apparently also refer to flavoured malt beverages as 'alcopops' but by law here the original alcoholic content has to be a spirit I'm trying to find the document that details how excise on alcohol works in this country because its amazing how obfuscatory and confusing it is. The long story short is wine is cheap and pretty simple, everything else is complicated and dumb and confusing. Also I can find lots of places saying the law never passed formally, but some poo poo about "validating" legislation to allow it to be passed, but I can't actually find anything that suggests they've stopped collecting that revenue so I'm pretty sure its still going on. It collected roughly a billion dollars per year and while that isn't a HUGE impact on a budget, I can't really see any of our surplus hungry politicians cutting a billion in revenue just to placate an industry that actually hasn't really felt much of a negative impact from it at all. Also despite the fact that it would almost certainly put me out of a job and throw our country into civil war I unironically agree that we should introduce plain packaging laws for alcohol. drowned in pussy juice fucked around with this message at 15:36 on Mar 5, 2015 |
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Mar 5, 2015 15:10
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I think one of the issues with plain packaging alcoholic beverages is often you're not drinking out of the container, and we already have many used options for hiding them. At a bar your drinks often poured into a glass (and that would probably go from often to always with plain packaging. At home decanters can be used, and stubbie holders cover up the label of cans and small bottles nicely. My favored approach when I was younger (and occasionally still) was, usually warm, goon out of an old coke bottle but that was just because it was easier to fit into the coat pocket. You can do the same with a pack of cigs I guess, but I don't know anyone who does, I certainly can't be bothered. where as with drinking when its so easy just to pour into a glass or other vessel it just seems like it would be done more naturally. Honestly a law like that would never even get near parliament though. I could almost see a small warning stick being placed on the back of "boogan drinks" cheap beer and pre-mixed spirts and what not, but could you imagine the noise if they tried that with expensive spirits and wines. Australia does have a huge problem with drinking though. I say legalize pot. Not an actually solution I know, but as I don't have an actually solution, other then teaching our kids not to skull a bunch of beers and punch someone, I figured that would do.
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Mar 5, 2015 15:37
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IMO plain packaging would still be worthwhile because simply removing the lifestyle marketing aspect at the point of sale would probably have a bigger impact on the way we consume alcohol than any price signal pressure poo poo since we are a nation of compulsive drinkers and the RTD tax kind of proves that price signal method doesn't actually impact consumption in any meaningful way, but I'm mostly just playing devil's advocate because I think a lot of the same arguments about the practicality and impact of it were floating by people for plain packing for tobacco and I think its an interesting illustration of how our culture has changed because if you told me (or my dad because I was a mewling child) in the late 80s that a deck of winnie blues would cost an hour of minimum wage work and come in plain packaging, you'd be laughed out of the public bar that women weren't really allowed in.
drowned in pussy juice fucked around with this message at 16:04 on Mar 5, 2015 |
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Mar 5, 2015 15:47
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dr_rat posted:
I say make pot mandatory. If you walk out of a pub and are forced to smoke a joint, one of two things is going to happen. 1) you vomit uncontrollably, rendering you useless till you sleep it off, or 2)you chill the gently caress out. Either way, you aren't going to be punching anyone. Status quo improved.
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Mar 5, 2015 15:47
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Legalizing pot would be a really good idea, but not for the reasons you guys seem to think; Australians consume a HUGE amount of weed and its loving dumb our government doesn't want to get in on that. I don't really see legalization reducing violence in any meaningful way unless we assume that the only reason drunk people are so loving violent is because they're pissed that they can't get on and are stressed out and getting drunk about it. Which to be fair describes 90% of my motivation for drinking nowadays drowned in pussy juice fucked around with this message at 16:06 on Mar 5, 2015 |
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Mar 5, 2015 15:58
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MC Eating Disorder posted:IMO plain packaging would still be worthwhile because simply removing the lifestyle marketing aspect at the point of sale would probably have a bigger impact on the way we consume alcohol than any price signal pressure poo poo since we are a nation of compulsive drinkers and the RTD tax kind of conclusively proves that price signal method doesn't actually impact consumption in any meaningful way, Pretty much anything that reminds people that alcohol is one of the harsher drugs (a lot of people don't even consider it a drug which I always find weird, what the hell do the actually think is in it making them all happy and vomitty) is a good thing, so i totally agree. With as many studies is there is on how susceptible peoples taste are to visual and other queues it would be interesting to see how peoples preferences in booze changed, when it all came from the same looking beige coloured containers. Particularly with wine when where unless you're drinking something cheap enough that it might as well be metho and grape juice, it really it doesn't matter much which bottle you get as as no one can really tell the differences between the more cheap and more expensive stuff anyway in blind test. I think science has well proved my warm goon in a coke bottle choice, correct.
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Mar 5, 2015 16:13
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Why is it still legal to advertise alcohol Why are the only venues open after 10pm pubs and casinos Why is there nothing to do in pubs but drink and only the fancy places serve food Why is there no cheap and easy way to move around the city so that once you have your first drink you are essentially condemned to play out the rest of your night in the same spot, doing nothing but drink Australia's drinking problem is culture based not tax based but there are certain environmental factors that encourage binge drinking. They can be reduced using state and local level initiatives but what it requires is cooperation between politicians and motivated local businesses and money to get the ball rolling
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Mar 5, 2015 16:21
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Also I don't know if this has changed recently but NSW was gutted and its alcohol problem exacerbated massively by overly strict and self-defeating liquor licensing laws which meant that small bars and restaurants couldn't serve alcohol, couldn't attract customers and only the big battery farm booze factories were available, which saw no need to invest in nonalcoholic entertainment because they already had a monopoly on the customer base
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Mar 5, 2015 16:24
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MC Eating Disorder posted:Legalizing pot would be a really good idea, but not for the reasons you guys seem to think; Australians consume a HUGE amount of weed and its loving dumb our government doesn't want to get in on that. I don't really see legalization reducing violence in any meaningful way unless we assume that the only reason drunk people are so loving violent is because they're pissed that they can't get on and are stressed out and getting drunk about it. People substituting pot and possibly Kava (or possibly not) would certainly have a negative effect on violence, but yeah legalizing weed I doubt would get many people to substitute, as yeah people smoke up pretty regularly anyway. If you started getting a culture of late night pot cafes going, you might get a tiny bit of substitution happening, with some people heading out to them instead of the pub, but the effect would probably be pretty limited to inner city, chi drinking, bicycle riding, hipster/hippy, green voters. In other words the scum of the earth! But yeah legalizing, then taxing pot would bring in quite a bit of cash, as the US states who are legalizing are finding out.
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Mar 5, 2015 16:31
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My Imaginary GF posted:How is the craftbrew scene in australia? We're too busy roasting our own coffee blends at home to really get into it. Coffee culture is probably way more of a thing here than craftbrewing will get to.
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Mar 5, 2015 16:34
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Sulla-Marius 88 posted:Also I don't know if this has changed recently but NSW was gutted and its alcohol problem exacerbated massively by overly strict and self-defeating liquor licensing laws which meant that small bars and restaurants couldn't serve alcohol, couldn't attract customers and only the big battery farm booze factories were available, which saw no need to invest in nonalcoholic entertainment because they already had a monopoly on the customer base Sydneys bar and restaurant scene is actually incredible and survived in spite of the lockout laws, which I attribute to the fact that while lockout laws are dumb and awful, at least in NSW they had the sense to only apply it to the worst parts of the city. There's still plenty of places open very late and a lot of them serve food but they are all expensive because Sydney is a godawful leviathan of a city that you have to be rolling in cash to comfortably live in. I don't really know the specifics of how they actually affected violence in the streets in Sydney, but assuming it was roughly the same as in Brisbane, I think the focus on on-premise (and around-premise) violence is a complete misnomer because alcohol related violence in the CBD has been on a very steady decline for more than a decade before the laws were introduced here, but the actual impact of this on our hospital system is negligible because the majority of our alcohol consumption is done in private residences (or in the park) and we're still beating the poo poo out of each other in the comfort of our own homes.
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Mar 5, 2015 16:42
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I think the lockout laws were having some good effect although I can't remember the details and wouldn't trust my memory. Newcastle's another good example to look at too, since the laws there have been in effect for longer than in Sydney.
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Mar 5, 2015 16:44
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Ultimately the only people you hear making noise about how lockout laws in QLD will kill our nightlife are shills for big companies like ALH and whatever the name of the Coles group is, but that's really more a factor that getting a liquor license past midnight in QLD just isn't worth the money. I'm not really anti-lockouts personally, by the time 1-2 am rolls around I've usually settled down and found where I want to drink until I have to go home, but the reasoning behind the laws is really bad and shows a complete lack of information about the industry and the human behaviour involved. I think there's some validity to restricting trading hours within reason but ultimately RSA and lockout laws are a loving joke while casinos get exemptions and big venues that are the source of the violence can afford to pay the occasional insane fine while smaller venues go bankrupt
drowned in pussy juice fucked around with this message at 16:57 on Mar 5, 2015 |
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Mar 5, 2015 16:54
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Sorry I wasn't talking about lock out laws I was talking about the liquor licenses themselves being really restrictive until relatively recently such that only big clubs could afford them. There was also some thing NSW did that completely killed the pub band scene you had in the 80s but I can't remember what it was specifically In any case alcohol policy in NSW has been really dumb and basically constructed to look proactive while protecting the interests of the wealthy *shrug*
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Mar 5, 2015 17:13
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thatfatkid posted:I vote Greens and consider myself a socialist. Jesus Christ some of you people can not grasp the simple fact that criticising the ALP does not equate to LNP flagwaving. It takes a special kind of loving stupid to find a way to criticise the ALP and be wrong
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Mar 5, 2015 17:28
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MC Eating Disorder posted:Ultimately the only people you hear making noise about how lockout laws in QLD will kill our nightlife are shills for big companies like ALH and whatever the name of the Coles group is, but that's really more a factor that getting a liquor license past midnight in QLD just isn't worth the money. I'm not really anti-lockouts personally, by the time 1-2 am rolls around I've usually settled down and found where I want to drink until I have to go home, but the reasoning behind the laws is really bad and shows a complete lack of information about the industry and the human behaviour involved. I think there's some validity to restricting trading hours within reason but ultimately RSA and lockout laws are a loving joke while casinos get exemptions and big venues that are the source of the violence can afford to pay the occasional insane fine while smaller venues go bankrupt I really don't like lockout laws just because a DJ will play a set from like 1-2 or 2:30 or so and then you'll wanna go elsewhere and it sort of cramps your time as is, let alone if it gets earlier. If I want to check out a club DJ then I've right now got like 30-60 mins to get to wherever I want to wind down, usually something a bit more chill and serving craft beers. It's tough as is and bringing forward the lockout laws will only worsen the problem. Our drinking problem is cultural in that it's engrained in our psyche to go out and get utterly shitfaced and take anything anyone even maybe does in a fantasy world as a persnoal sleight. Taxing it hardwer won't make it any better, because people still try to get just as wasted at festivals on $7 midstrengths. I think the biggest thing we (at least in QLD) can do is promote smaller, niche venues that cater to specific crowds. It's starting to pick up here but even still it's a bit dire. Things I think that've helped in Brisbane: - flat-fee taxis for outer suburbs. - More night public transport (when I was 19 it was the 12:30am train then the 5:15am train. Now there's 30-60 minute buses). - More Melbourne-style dive bars catering to specific crowds, though the hole-in-the-wall style things are still not as widespread. - West end gaining more mainstream traction to take the load off the city/valley - More diverse food options late at night, so people will be tempted to go eat rather than keep drinking on a now-ravenous stomach Things I think that could be done better: - More frequent night public transport - Even more diversification in the bar scene - Alternative locations that aren't poo poo and aren't the valley/city. West end is great. Bulimba sort of starts to approach it but needs a bit more diversification. Getting people to more local joints where they can wind down more easily I think would help a lot My Imaginary GF posted:Alcopops? Are you talking Mike's Hard Lemonaid or are you talking Crispin Hard Cider? Alcopops are premixed spirits and soft drink (sprite, coke, etc.). I learned recently that the US is basically devoid of premix spirits in most places and it blew my mind but here they're the staple of teens who don't really have the taste for beer yet. Vokda and <sweet fizzy drink> is the diet of 18 year old girls and bourbon/rum and coke for the guys. They're premixed to be about 5% ABV / 10 proof, though can get up to 7% ABV / 14 proof (though these tend to now be <7 due to the aformentioned tax hike in 2008). Nam Taf fucked around with this message at 17:39 on Mar 5, 2015 |
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Mar 5, 2015 17:35
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Yeah pretty much agreed on every point except that lockouts don't really affect clubs in brisbane because all clubs in brisbane are loving awful since barsoma closed. We're making some good progress in terms of diversification of the bar scene, but ultimately most of these places are 12 am venues and people are still getting shuffled into the bigger venues after midnight. What I'd like to see is all small bar licenses become 3 or 5 am licenses, keep the current lockout in place and to observe how this effects peoples behaviours. I think ultimately removing the lockout would be a good thing but only if we have enough venues trading that late to give people a good range of options. Taxi ranks are another thing that are really great, the staggering drop in violence in the valley since the introduction of taxi ranks absolutely overshadows any of the effects the lockout may have had. I think places like Caxton St are certainly taking some of the pressure off the city but ultimately the slog to get amplified music permits in residential areas means that places like West End and Paddington that might hypothetically be able to fulfill that role aren't necessarily easy places to open up a venue. I keep hearing bulimba floated as an alternate nightspot but its really too far away for everyone except people that live around that area, unless they start up a nightlink ferry service which would be cool as hell and also a terrible idea. iirc there are only two places in West End that trade past 12 am, and they're right next to each other and have completely different crowds, so West End has this weird vibe that I don't like but it has the most potential since despite being gentrified to gently caress, most people who live in West End like to think they are pretty cool and would probably not constantly make noise complaints against places every loving friday-saturday like happens in New Farm and Paddington. What would REALLY help is if we took the idea of entertainment precincts seriously and made developers responsible for adequate soundproofing like they did in Melbourne (i feel sick just typing something positive about Melbourne) because its loving appalling how many of the new high rises in the Valley aren't fitted out to be soundproof and are on the same block as nightclubs and bars that have been there for years, resulting in a bunch of noise complaints and fuckarounds with regards to noise compliance that just aren't reasonable for venues to deal with It was really cute when that hotel popped up on Constance st with a Chur burger on the bottom floor and a bar on the roof and hotel residents kept complaining about the bar next door making too much noise but when the council came out and did readings they were well below the legal limit and it turns out the noise was actually from the rooftop bar above their heads. How the gently caress do you build a hotel with a clubby bar on the roof and not noiseproof it so your loving guests can't hear the music blasting out of your own speakers? drowned in pussy juice fucked around with this message at 18:03 on Mar 5, 2015 |
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Mar 5, 2015 17:52
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 I would vote for a government that offered to put that on Big Mac cartons
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Mar 5, 2015 18:38
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Nam Taf posted:Alcopops are premixed spirits and soft drink (sprite, coke, etc.). I learned recently that the US is basically devoid of premix spirits in most places and it blew my mind but here they're the staple of teens who don't really have the taste for beer yet. Vokda and <sweet fizzy drink> is the diet of 18 year old girls and bourbon/rum and coke for the guys. They're premixed to be about 5% ABV / 10 proof, though can get up to 7% ABV / 14 proof (though these tend to now be <7 due to the aformentioned tax hike in 2008). This makes no sense to me, why the hell would you premix a drink? Do they all use the same brand of pop, or what? I don't get this concept; here in America, only 13 year old girls drink alcopops or winecoolers. Your drinking culture sounds more hosed up than America's; I don't even get what your whole lock-out rules are intended to do.
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Mar 5, 2015 19:26
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It's cola and bourboun premixed into a can. There's tons of them: at the bottleshop I work at probably Jack Daniels RTD's are the most popular. We also sell a lot of Woodstocks. The most popular beer is Corona, followed by Carlton Dry.
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Mar 5, 2015 19:51
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Another great thing about Aussie open bottle laws is that it means people can only drink inside their house or a bar, the latter of which has absolutely sweet gently caress all to offer but more drinking. So instead of people hanging out by.. Well I was going to say bridges and piazze but I guess parks and squares, talking and chilling out with a beer, they are in a place with nothing to do but yell at the person next to yo u and drink more. and you won't even run out of booze because the tap is five feet away
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Mar 5, 2015 20:25
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Sulla-Marius 88 posted:Another great thing about Aussie open bottle laws is that it means people can only drink inside their house or a bar, the latter of which has absolutely sweet gently caress all to offer but more drinking. So instead of people hanging out by.. Well I was going to say bridges and piazze but I guess parks and squares, talking and chilling out with a beer, they are in a place with nothing to do but yell at the person next to yo u and drink more. and you won't even run out of booze because the tap is five feet away This is not true at all, I was at two bars that had been drunk dry last week.
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Mar 5, 2015 21:26
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