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mugrim posted:I'm more interested in your answer than "winning" you are correct in every assumption you make about what my answer would be
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Mar 4, 2015 16:58
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I'm less concerned about individual soldiers taking responsibility for their actions, and more concerned with us as a country being able to look at our militaristic culture honestly and admit that its hosed and needs to change. In my opinion(I know Cole has said he disagrees) Chris Kyle's story would have been a perfect vehicle for that, so its an opportunity lost.
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Mar 4, 2015 17:19
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Don't bother with that mugrim guy Cole some people don't post to debate or get other people's points of view it's just to pontificate their opinions. But you and other veterans definitely have opinions or insights on this movie that have been lacking in the discussions. Though I've read a good amount of people who say they fought in Iraq and also have a bad opinion of American Sniper but not much substance to their critique outside the Iraq 9/11 connection which I think is a common misreading of the film, connecting the neoconservative justification of our invasion instead of Chris Kyle's personal motivation of enlisting.
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Mar 4, 2015 17:21
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Basebf555 posted:I'm less concerned about individual soldiers taking responsibility for their actions, and more concerned with us as a country being able to look at our militaristic culture honestly and admit that its hosed and needs to change. In my opinion(I know Cole has said he disagrees) Chris Kyle's story would have been a perfect vehicle for that, so its an opportunity lost. Politics is about getting money. We found out how to get rich when world war 2 happened. Do with that information what you will. I agree things need to change, but asking a Hollywood movie to be the platform for that change is like pissing in the wind because it won't work... at all. The only way to change things is to affect people's lives directly. There isn't a big enough population of proactive people in the United States, but there is a HUGE population of reactive people. You could have an entire town on the east coast get slaughtered, but as long as it doesn't affect someone directly in another area, it will stay an isolated incident and nothing will really be done about it to change anything.
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Mar 4, 2015 17:25
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Cole posted:Politics is about getting money. We found out how to get rich when world war 2 happened. Do with that information what you will. I agree things need to change, but asking a Hollywood movie to be the platform for that change is like pissing in the wind because it won't work... at all. Cole is making probably the most important point about the false urgency and listless controversy about the film, and I completely agree: the history of all hitherto existing society is the history of class struggle.
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Mar 4, 2015 17:33
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Cole posted:You could have an entire town on the east coast get slaughtered, but as long as it doesn't affect someone directly in another area, it will stay an isolated incident and nothing will really be done about it to change anything. Counterpoint: 
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Mar 4, 2015 17:56
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mugrim posted:Counterpoint: What about the individual life of each person changed outside of the military and those directly affected by 9/11? Did a bunch of people join the military? Yeah, but they could've easily went on doing the same ol' thing, and it was a very. very small portion of the population. What about your life changed? My life didn't change at all until I joined the military 8 years later. Everyone I know did exactly the same thing they were doing on September 10th when September 12th rolled around. Were they more patriotic? Yeah, for the most part. But nothing changed about their lifestyle.
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Mar 4, 2015 18:14
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Basebf555 posted:I'm less concerned about individual soldiers taking responsibility for their actions, and more concerned with us as a country being able to look at our militaristic culture honestly and admit that its hosed and needs to change. In my opinion(I know Cole has said he disagrees) Chris Kyle's story would have been a perfect vehicle for that, so its an opportunity lost. A more literal version of Kyle's story might have had the opposite effect. It could have been interpreted as the story of an individual loose cannon and not as an indictment of militaristic culture as a whole because most people in my opinion don't think most soldiers are that gonzo. Also, a militaristic culture is only part of the issue. Foreign policy is dictated by money, namely corporate interests, and geopolitical strategies. We didn't invade Iraq because we love war. We invaded because we love to protect our interests.
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Mar 4, 2015 18:24
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Can't wait for Oliver Stone's Juba The Baghdad Sniper film.
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Mar 4, 2015 19:28
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FreudianSlippers posted:Can't wait for Oliver Stone's Juba The Baghdad Sniper film. Same
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Mar 4, 2015 19:38
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I grew up next to NYC and we had the most fervent anti Iraq War protests in the country before we invaded. People who lived through 9/11 there tho many of them started blaming Bush for it and every drat protest got hijacked by the lunatic conspiracy fringe and I spent more time yelling at fellow protesters then accomplishing anything. But when half a million people on the eve of war many like me who knew people personally who died on 9/11 didn't believe the hype all marching and screaming we don't want another war gets less mass media attention than a dozen tea party activists carrying AR15s in a Walmart to protest illegal immigrants and poo poo what the hell is the point? Also two people in my highschool joined the army around then and fought in Iraq. Both came home after their tours and committed suicide within the year. One guy had a loving wife and he hung himself in their home. The other blew his brains out. Smoothrich fucked around with this message at 19:46 on Mar 4, 2015 |
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Mar 4, 2015 19:42
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Smoothrich posted:I grew up next to NYC and we had the most fervent anti Iraq War protests in the country before we invaded. People who lived through 9/11 there tho many of them started blaming Bush for it and every drat protest got hijacked by the lunatic conspiracy fringe and I spent more time yelling at fellow protesters then accomplishing anything. Meanwhile, in Oregon, nobody gives a poo poo after a few weeks or months.
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Mar 4, 2015 19:50
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Cole posted:Meanwhile, in Oregon, nobody gives a poo poo after a few weeks or months. To be fair, nobody else gives a poo poo about the people in Oregon, either.
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Mar 4, 2015 20:03
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Wade Wilson posted:To be fair, nobody else gives a poo poo about the people in Oregon, either. -The United States as long as facebook is accessible, people will be okay. Seriously, I think if you took Facebook off the internet for a week you would have more rioting and protesting than you did in Ferguson, MO.
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Mar 4, 2015 20:08
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I bet New Yorkers were the first to stop caring or should I say, fearing. We had to tune out daily reports of terror level alert escalations as it became white noise that lingered for years. National Guardsmen with M4s slung on their shoulders in subway stations made everyone pissed off and uncomfortable instead of feeling safe but thankfully went away after a few months. But my god was it infuriating to see that empty hole in the ground where the twin towers once stood as construction was delayed for over a decade. The actual attitude around ground zero was real funny actually. New Yorkers stop for nothing and give no shits about other people so you'd see them pushing tourists out of the way who wanted to 'pay their respects.' What they got was street vendors selling hotdogs and marked up I<3NY t-shirts with plastic twin tower figurines and drunk vomiting bums who lived in nearby porta potties who slowly attack pedestrians like slow shambling zombies with a big stupid construction site behind a fence where no one actually built anything like a big Mafia scam. Everyone hated George Bush more than Bin Laden too. I think he was blamed for 9/11 more than I ever heard bad about Muslims or Saddam. Hearing politicians invoke 9/11 for any reason would cause both Republicans and Democrats in that area to wanna yell shut the gently caress up! And give them a smack for disrespect. I dont think many people bashing American Sniper were actually politically active or cognizant then either. Republicans and Democrats both turned their backs on that war and our reasons to invade once the CIA reports on uranium rods and chemical weapons all started to be exposed as bullshit. It became indefensible and it still is. Jeb Bush is already giving speeches saying the Iraq War was foolish and wrong. In fact the Iraq War will probably tank any chances he has for president because people hate it so much. People are stupid if they think American Sniper could heal those wounds even if it was genuinely designed to be a whitewashing propaganda piece on invading Iraq, which sounds as crazy as arguing Bush did 9/11.
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Mar 4, 2015 20:16
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Smoothrich posted:People are stupid if they think American Sniper could heal those wounds even if it was genuinely designed to be a whitewashing propaganda piece on invading Iraq, which sounds as crazy as arguing Bush did 9/11. People are also stupid for saying that film was well made. 
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Mar 4, 2015 20:59
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I was cackling like a maniac during that scene. And I wasn't the only one at that. Apart from that I'd say the movie was technically well done. Few other things really stood out in that regard.
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Mar 4, 2015 21:18
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Cole posted:Politics is about getting money. We found out how to get rich when world war 2 happened. Do with that information what you will. I agree things need to change, but asking a Hollywood movie to be the platform for that change is like pissing in the wind because it won't work... at all. Moving to a full scale, broad based, no deferral, draft to staff the armed services, with very limited exemptions, would probably go a long way toward putting our various military adventures in perspective (with a likely concurrent impact, for better or for worse, on readiness / efficiency / morale). As to AS, I've been putting off screening this movie, but given the commentary here, I'll be interested to see how close it comes to Stolz der Nation (the film-within-a-film from Inglorious Basterds). I've always thought of that as a fairly repugnant depiction of killing in war (though perhaps I'm misremembering), so I suppose the answer will likely be: Not very.
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Mar 4, 2015 21:40
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Sheikh Djibouti posted:Moving to a full scale, broad based, no deferral, draft to staff the armed services, with very limited exemptions, would probably go a long way toward putting our various military adventures in perspective (with a likely concurrent impact, for better or for worse, on readiness / efficiency / morale). One thing a lot of troops (probably nowhere near any type of majority though) wish would happen is more politicians' children join the military. And one of the most popular ways to do that that comes up is two year mandatory conscription.
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Mar 4, 2015 23:57
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Cole posted:One thing a lot of troops (probably nowhere near any type of majority though) wish would happen is more politicians' children join the military. And one of the most popular ways to do that that comes up is two year mandatory conscription. They'd all just get deferments like they did for Vietnam. The odds of a politician's kid being unable to get a student deferment is basically zero. Cheney got four of them, and then another after he became a new father. Unless you completely restructure the draft system, it would be the same old story.
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Mar 5, 2015 00:45
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Grizzled Patriarch posted:They'd all just get deferments like they did for Vietnam. The odds of a politician's kid being unable to get a student deferment is basically zero. Cheney got four of them, and then another after he became a new father. Unless you completely restructure the draft system, it would be the same old story. And even if you didn't about 80% of the military never sees the front lines anyway.
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Mar 5, 2015 02:33
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mugrim posted:Counterpoint: I would argue that the loss of life made less of an impact than the destruction of iconic buildings.
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Mar 5, 2015 09:21
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Lurdiak posted:I would argue that the loss of life made less of an impact than the destruction of iconic buildings. I mean, obesity probably kills 300,000 Americans every year and you don't see us spending $5 trillion trying to win that battle. It's obviously not about the raw number of people killed.
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Mar 5, 2015 14:48
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Lurdiak posted:I would argue that the loss of life made less of an impact than the destruction of iconic buildings. Shut the gently caress up
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Mar 5, 2015 16:22
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EATIN SHRIMP posted:Shut the gently caress up He's right though...
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Mar 5, 2015 17:23
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EATIN SHRIMP posted:Shut the gently caress up No, he's right. People cared less about the number of people killed than the fact that somebody flew a plane into each of the buildings and brought them down, striking down the biggest monuments to companies like Morgan Stanley in the country (the company occupied 20 floors in the South Tower and another 10 floors of the North Tower). If Bin Laden had spun the attacks as a "gently caress Wall Street!" attack instead of the whole religious indignation thing probably EDIT: wouldn't have died as such a hated man (who am I kidding, he'd still be dead for loving with Wall Street).
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Mar 5, 2015 17:36
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Wade Wilson posted:No, he's right. People cared less about the number of people killed than the fact that somebody flew a plane into each of the buildings and brought them down, striking down the biggest monuments to companies like Morgan Stanley in the country (the company occupied 20 floors in the South Tower and another 10 floors of the North Tower).
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Mar 5, 2015 20:36
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Slugworth posted:... Who feels this way? Like, there is undoubtedly some symbolism in the choice of targets, but I think the average person wouldn't have given a poo poo if a plane, empty of civilians, crashed into two empty buildings. I certainly wouldn't have. Chris Kyle, American Goddamned Hero Sniper, probably wouldn't have. People don't care about either one after a week or so.
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Mar 5, 2015 20:58
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Cole posted:People don't care about either one after a week or so. Except for that decade long period where people rallied behind two false narrative wars and surrendered a ton of personal freedoms in the name of security? I guess we could have all collectively committed suicide out of grief? I mean honestly, what would have been a more lasting impact from that day then what has happened to this country since? I look at this post and see snark, and I apologize. But I am genuinely taken aback by your claim. Memorials have been made, millions have traveled to the site to pay their respects, foreign policy and civil liberties have drastically changed, wars have been waged, once a year there are tributes on tv, the date itself has become permanently attached to the event in a way that literally no other event in our country's history has, etc, etc. People care. And I don't think it's because of Merrill Lynch.
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Mar 5, 2015 22:10
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Slugworth posted:Except for that decade long period where people rallied behind two false narrative wars and surrendered a ton of personal freedoms in the name of security? The military was at war in the name of freedoms and security and yada yada. America was at the mall. People forgot we were even in Afghanistan for several years. People's lives didn't change any if they weren't directly affected by 9/11 (to include military and the family of people in the military). Literally nothing changed about anyone's lives outside of the airport. Just because they waved a flag in the front yard and said they were patriotic doesn't mean they gave a poo poo, it just means they looked like they did. Go look at any military support group anywhere. Tell me how many people in those groups have zero connection to the military. People care about the military (whether that care has to do with support or the travesties committed by the military) when you ask them about it, not when they are on Facebook or shopping in walmart. People only care about politics when it directly affects their lives. Memorials have been made based on donations. You think people didn't make money off those memorials? Just because something is non-profit, or something is based on donations, doesn't mean someone didn't get rich off of it. The memorials that were built were contracted out to companies that will make you a memorial about your dick being 22 inches long. After people give their $10 or $20 in the name of the memorial, they go back to not giving a poo poo because the five minutes it took to make such a donation was probably too long anyway. Cole fucked around with this message at 22:29 on Mar 5, 2015 |
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Mar 5, 2015 22:21
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Cole posted:The military was at war in the name of freedoms and security and yada yada. By your standards what would constitute a member of the public genuinely caring about 9/11?
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Mar 5, 2015 23:28
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You might as well ask me what a justified invasion of a country by the US looks like. I have no idea, but I can tell you what the contrary looks like, with evidence.
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Mar 5, 2015 23:33
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Cole posted:You might as well ask me what a justified invasion of a country by the US looks like. I mean..... Seriously, please answer the question, because I am at a total loss. You are, of course, correct that people make donations and then go on with their lives - The other option would be for the entire population of this country to lay prostrate in the street wailing in agony and misery for the last 14 years. People go to funerals, and then the next day they are back at work. They clearly didn't care about the loved one they lost.
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Mar 5, 2015 23:49
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Slugworth posted:I mean..... Seriously, please answer the question, because I am at a total loss. You are, of course, correct that people make donations and then go on with their lives - The other option would be for the entire population of this country to lay prostrate in the street wailing in agony and misery for the last 14 years. Did I slip into mandarin when I said "i don't know"?
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Mar 5, 2015 23:58
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Saying that nothing changed outside of the airport is pretty disingenuous. There are mountains of legislation stemming from 9/11 that continues to impact the citizenry to this day, not to mention the effect on the economy, etc. I'm still wondering why you're surprised that people aren't super sympathetic for situations they aren't involved in. That's true of literally everything. Beyond a general sentiment of "support the troops," expecting anything else from the general populace is kind of naive. It doesn't mean nobody gives a poo poo about troops so much as it means that nobody gives a poo poo about anything they aren't personally invested in. This movie is doing for veterans what the ice bucket challenge did for ALS: a localized burst of monetary support and a chance for people to pat themselves on the back on Facebook until the next cause goes viral.
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Mar 6, 2015 00:20
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Grizzled Patriarch posted:I'm still wondering why you're surprised that people aren't super sympathetic for situations they aren't involved in. That's true of literally everything. Beyond a general sentiment of "support the troops," expecting anything else from the general populace is kind of naive. It doesn't mean nobody gives a poo poo about troops so much as it means that nobody gives a poo poo about anything they aren't personally invested in. I'm not surprised. At all. I'm merely stating that it's the case.
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Mar 6, 2015 00:39
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Cole posted:Did I slip into mandarin when I said "i don't know"? OK, more directly then - Why should I, as you say, care about the military when I am at Walmart? Because you are absolutely right - When I am at Walmart I care about getting cheap merchandise and trying not to stab the 8th person in the last 5 minutes to bump into me because they weren't watching where they were walking. Why on earth would I care about the military every waking moment of my life? What would that look like? I also can't help but notice this has somehow become about the military, when the original argument was nobody cared about the dead civilians of 9/11. I am sorry if, as a vet you feel underappreciated - For what it's worth, I think American vets are probably the most venerated soldiers of any nation on this earth.
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Mar 6, 2015 00:48
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Slugworth posted:OK, more directly then - Why should I, as you say, care about the military when I am at Walmart? Because you are absolutely right - When I am at Walmart I care about getting cheap merchandise and trying not to stab the 8th person in the last 5 minutes to bump into me because they weren't watching where they were walking. Why on earth would I care about the military every waking moment of my life? What would that look like? You shouldn't care directly about the military machine as if it were something related to you (you should care about the individual troops even if you don't agree with the politics that put them wherever they are at -- but the people in charge? gently caress 'em, even I'll say that). That is unrealistic given the climate of Iraq in from 2003 on, and I don't have any expectations of anyone to see the military in a favorable light. You should, however, care that several planes were hijacked and 2,900 people died considering you are indirectly feeling the effects of it right now (you just don't know it because you still have all of the same luxuries you had back then). And you should care about the military response to that, and whether it is justified. But you don't care about any of that, nor will you try to change anything, unless it is convenient. Nobody does. (A common justification for inaction is "I can't change anything." You're right, because you don't do anything.) I actually care about what has happened to the United States in a post-9/11 world. I think the government has used it as propaganda (a twisted problem in itself) to gain more control over everything. For example: data mining your information from everything you do on the internet. The problem is you don't see any tangible effects of that, so nobody worries. Cole fucked around with this message at 01:04 on Mar 6, 2015 |
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Mar 6, 2015 00:57
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Cole posted:You shouldn't care directly about the military machine as if it were something related to you (you should care about the individual troops even if you don't agree with the politics that put them wherever they are at -- but the people in charge? gently caress 'em, even I'll say that). That is unrealistic given the climate of Iraq in from 2003 on, and I don't have any expectations of anyone to see the military in a favorable light. You should, however, care that several planes were hijacked and 2,900 people died considering you are indirectly feeling the effects of it right now (you just don't know it because you still have all of the same luxuries you had back then). And you should care about the military response to that, and whether it is justified. But you don't care about any of that, nor will you try to change anything, unless it is convenient. Nobody does. You say I should care about the individual troops, but again, what does that mean in your estimation? Should I be sending care packages? How frequently? You have already indicated one time donations are meaningless gestures. What can individuals do over a 14 year period to show they care? You also seem to think I am unaware of the changes that came about from 9/11 when my original argument was that 9/11 drastically changed civil liberties.
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Mar 6, 2015 01:31
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Cole posted:But you don't care about any of that, nor will you try to change anything, unless it is convenient. Nobody does. 
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Mar 6, 2015 01:34
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