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I don't get why Wolf-Blooded who turn into non-werewolf supernatural creatures get to keep their tells. When supernatural cross-pollination has generally been so restrictive. Do vampires and mages really need access to urshul form?Cabbit posted:Werewolf UFC. Two bigass werewolves stare each other down. They attack each other. Nothing comes of it. They attack each other again. Still nothing. A third pass. Woah, that was a treMENdous blow the one on the left dealt! Not tremendous enough, no. No change in game state. A fourth- Ferrinus fucked around with this message at 10:05 on Mar 6, 2015 |
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Mar 6, 2015 10:02
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Ferrinus's soul is fine, unless it's now a religious issue to think a possible barrier to running smooth, straightforward, non-tedious combats isn't okay just because it could justify an amusing setpiece that's kind of cute to fool around with for half a session
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Mar 6, 2015 10:06
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Ferrinus posted:Two bigass werewolves stare each other down. They attack each other. Nothing comes of it. I mean, I like baseball, cricket, and PBP games. I have a pretty high tolerance for waiting for a long time until something happens.
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Mar 6, 2015 10:19
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If that is really what happens when two war-form werewolves go at it, then I'd say it really is a problem; unless you are not expectes to use that form to show your dominance and that is reserves for when you really need to kill off someone, but I imagine if that was the case it would have been written somewhere in the book. I'll get my hands on that book, have no doubt, but I can't right at this moment.
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Mar 6, 2015 10:25
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Ferrinus posted:Two bigass werewolves stare each other down. They attack each other. Nothing comes of it.
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Mar 6, 2015 10:43
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Holy poo poo guys, WWE isnt staged, all the wrestlers are just werewolves 
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Mar 6, 2015 12:20
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DJ Dizzy posted:Holy poo poo guys, WWE isnt staged, all the wrestlers are just werewolves Um. Hasn't it always been rude to break kayfabe? 
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Mar 6, 2015 12:28
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Werewolf p97 posted:"Regeneration: Uratha in Gauru form regenerate all So is that they regen on all damage on THEIR turn or on EVERY turn? Does it only happen once a round?
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Mar 6, 2015 12:57
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As an aside, Vertigo is 4 issues into a six issue mini called Wolf Moon. It's about a guy hunting down a werewolf. Only the werewolf is a sort of parasitic spirit that changes hosts every full moon. And he was a host, once upon a time. I'm on the tribes chapter of Forsaken, really liked the auspice updates.
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Mar 6, 2015 13:42
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paradoxGentleman posted:If that is really what happens when two war-form werewolves go at it, then I'd say it really is a problem; unless you are not expectes to use that form to show your dominance and that is reserves for when you really need to kill off someone, but I imagine if that was the case it would have been written somewhere in the book. If you are pulling out Gauru just to show dominance rather than as an emergency kill button, you deserve all the inevitable problems you get from going insane and trying to kill everyone around you regularly.
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Mar 6, 2015 14:33
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I mean, I've only discussed the specific task of demonstrating dominance because I was springboarding of someone else's post. I wouldn't actually expect Gauru to be the go-to form for establishing a pecking order within a group of basically friendly werewolves (actually, the entire idea of werewolves fighting to establish dominance is a questionable one for as long as the general rule of death-rage-on-exceptional-attack remains). The problem is that one werewolf in Gauru can't beat another. They can't "show dominance" not in the sense of showing, but in the sense of dominating. One werewolf in Gauru can't make traction against another werewolf in Gauru, let alone decisively end a combat, except by dealing the kind of damage that takes a week per point to heal. How is that better than 1E, in which war-form werewolves could mix it up and deal damage to each other normally and send the losers of fights fleeing in fear but able to recuperate from their loss in fewer than two months?
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Mar 6, 2015 14:45
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My Forsaken lore is kind of weak, but maybe that's just The Way It's Supposed To Be? Werewolves aren't built to murder each other, they're built to murder everything else. Gauru isn't for dominance displays and showing off, it's for totally murdering the gently caress out of dangerous poo poo. Throwing two of these things against each other might just do absolutely nothing until they shift away from that form or violate The Way It's Supposed To Be and start eating each other. It also provides Uratha a way to deal with other Uratha in Death Rage. Assuming one werewolf goes all Deathrage at a bad time and everyone else doesn't follow suit (Haven't read the new rules so I don't know how unlikely that is) they could use Gauru to grapple and restrain him, or just let him wail on them until he snaps out of it. I'm not sure how well the new rules support that idea, though.
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Mar 6, 2015 15:44
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Gilok posted:My Forsaken lore is kind of weak, but maybe that's just The Way It's Supposed To Be? Werewolves aren't built to murder each other, they're built to murder everything else. Gauru isn't for dominance displays and showing off, it's for totally murdering the gently caress out of dangerous poo poo. Throwing two of these things against each other might just do absolutely nothing until they shift away from that form or violate The Way It's Supposed To Be and start eating each other. How is this better than two werewolves in Gauru being able to have a real fight in which the stronger or luckier one defeats the weaker one, by default? This isn't the only published Werewolf game. You don't have to make excuses for it as though it's the only status quo we've seen or are able to conceive. Werewolf: the Apocalypse and Werewolf: the Forsaken 1E both allow two werewolves in the war form to a) be more dangerous than they would be not in the war form and yet b) make headway against each other in a fight. Why the hell is b) suddenly gone? How was it ruining the game that my young, freshly-changed werewolf could engage a canny, full-grown werewolf in a fight and lose that fight in less than an entire scene of pointless, instantly-undone attacking? Maybe the writers were worried that werewolves, even gauru form werewolves, were too vulnerable to mortal opposition. But... we've got rules technology for that already. Make werewolves in gauru take bashing from conventional attack and heal loads (maybe even all) of their bashing per turn, but count gauru (maybe even dalu or urshul) claws as supernatural-durability-piercing lethal damage.
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Mar 6, 2015 15:56
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Solution: Houserule all Gauru bites to be 0A. 
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Mar 6, 2015 16:03
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That's how Apocalypse did it, but frankly I always liked that in Forsaken two werewolves fighting each other wouldn't, by default, leave each other bedridden for weeks. Their claws weren't suffused with flesh-blighting death magic... they were just big, sharp, and on the ends of really strong arms. Since lethal damage wasn't a priori meaningless to a werewolf taking a fight seriously, using lethal damage in your assault on a werewolf didn't make you into a circus clown.
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Mar 6, 2015 16:08
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I'm okay with Gauru on Gauru being a meaningless slap fight up unto a point, but it does raise the issue as to how the gently caress the Blood Talons are actually supposed to succeed on their Siskur'Dah
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Mar 6, 2015 16:11
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I don't know, I think the fact that Gauru is kind of limited againt Gauru makes Blood Talon hunts kind of interesting. Plus Pure totally don't care and will just eat you for Essence, so the fight will end sooner or later.Ferrinus posted:That's how Apocalypse did it, but frankly I always liked that in Forsaken two werewolves fighting each other wouldn't, by default, leave each other bedridden for weeks. Their claws weren't suffused with flesh-blighting death magic... they were just big, sharp, and on the ends of really strong arms. Since lethal damage wasn't a priori meaningless to a werewolf taking a fight seriously, using lethal damage in your assault on a werewolf didn't make you into a circus clown. I guess I just don't really see Gauru as being used by werewolves who don't fully intend to kill each other. Like if you want to arm-wrestle or whatever, there's four other forms that don't involve you riding the murdermode ragewave.
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Mar 6, 2015 16:17
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I'm saying a werewolf who wanted to kill you could do it with lethal, which meant that you could tangle with someone who seriously wanted to kill you and, unless they straight-up succeeded, bounce back in less than six or seven weeks. I'd say it was a flaw in 1E that there wasn't enough of a difference in performance between urshul and gauru (giving Gauru 8-again and similar helps considerably), but in general I think it was a good thing that werewolves didn't put each other out of commission for long periods of time whenever they fought seriously. That meant they could fight a lot, repeatedly, in a short stretch of time... but any fight still had a clear winner who'd at the very least force the loser into a retreat, which meant that two packs could tangle over specific loci, fetishes, chunks of territory, etc, and actually settle each question of dominance or primacy as it arose. Obviously, once you've got people activating Savage Rending or similar powers you start to see more Vampire-style supernatural fights where both the winner and the loser end up going to ground and licking their wounds or days or weeks afterward, but it wasn't the default state of affairs. Most violence werewolves engaged in was "free", in the sense that it cost neither Essence nor appreciable time to recuperate from, which made a really big difference between Werewolf and Vampire.
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Mar 6, 2015 16:24
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So if the idea behind your game requires a certain assumption about Gauru-on-Gauru violence, is the answer to a more complex (and likely weaker) soak system, in general, or an exception-driven sub-rule about garau claws in combat with other gauru?
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Mar 6, 2015 16:44
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All you have to do is make Gauru healing not expressly, completely, and unfailingly blank all bashing and lethal damage. I think the simplest change is to just make a werewolf in gauru form halve all the B and L in their health track at the start of each of their turns instead. That way attacking a werewolf actually causes some kind of appreciable change in the game world, even if it's not as much of a change as the attacker'd have preferred.
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Mar 6, 2015 16:46
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Maybe something simple like: Every turn, convert [Stamina] L to bashing and heal [Stamina*2] B while in Gauru form. Although thinking about it, maybe the way to deal with hostile Gauru is to wait it out - you send your Gauru in to delay them in tearing pieces off each other harmlessly, while meanwhile the rest of the pack are setting up to go in for the kill once they drop out of Gauru. Of course, that could take a long time if they fall into Basu-Im - especially if they're high Primal Urge - so maybe your pack members tag in and out of Gauru mode to keep the prey occupied. This gives werewolf hunts a very different tenor to other ones, but that's fine by me.
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Mar 6, 2015 16:58
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Flavivirus posted:you send your Gauru in to delay them in tearing pieces off each other harmlessly I can't believe I'm the only person who finds this absurd. I feel like I'm taking CRAZY PILLS here.
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Mar 6, 2015 17:00
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Ferrinus posted:I feel like I'm taking CRAZY PILLS here. You probably are. 
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Mar 6, 2015 17:07
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Hey guys, check out our muscle-bound killing machine. And by killing machine, I mean the guy we send into combat to stand there and take lethal damage while his attacks do nothing
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Mar 6, 2015 17:12
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Ferrinus posted:I can't believe I'm the only person who finds this absurd. I feel like I'm taking CRAZY PILLS here. For me it's not absurd - it's the line making the statement that Gauru is basically immortal barring colossal levels of damage or supernatural mojo (even the spindliest werewolf can take 10L a turn before getting lasting harm). Given that, if one's coming for you your safest bet is to send your own Gauru against them, but that only buys you time. Basically, you really don't fight a Gauru; if you can, you put distance between you and them and wait for them to calm down. If you don't have the choice, one of your own pack going Gauru can buy you that time. For most combats, a Gauru ends up not having a health track but a time track, making the fight about how well you can outlast their rage. tatankatonk posted:Hey guys, check out our muscle-bound killing machine. And by killing machine, I mean the guy we send into combat to stand there and take lethal damage while his attacks do nothing Well, that's only against another muscle-bound killing machine avatar of the primal beast. Against pretty much anything else a Gauru will tear poo poo up, and even versus another Gauru they'll lose badly if they have lower Stamina+Primal Urge than you. That is, unless they're willing to risk sending their packmates and themselves into death rage or committing harmony sins to deal agg. Flavivirus fucked around with this message at 17:19 on Mar 6, 2015 |
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Mar 6, 2015 17:16
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I'm definitely in favor of werewolf-on-werewolf fights being really drawn-out and goofy, because I think werewolves are stupid and lame anyway.
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Mar 6, 2015 17:22
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Yeah, I really have no problem with the idea that Gauru is a hurricane and you don't fight it, you run and take cover. If you slam two hurricanes into each other the point of the scene is not which hurricane wins, it's holy poo poo be somewhere else. If you don't think of them as "werewolves, only bigger" and start thinking of them as "the platonic ideal of rage made manifest" it makes more sense that they don't really get hurt.
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Mar 6, 2015 17:22
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Gilok posted:Yeah, I really have no problem with the idea that Gauru is a hurricane and you don't fight it, you run and take cover. If you slam two hurricanes into each other the point of the scene is not which hurricane wins, it's holy poo poo be somewhere else. There's no collateral damage rules or anything like that, though, until they go crazy. So it's actually just them punching each other ineffectually until one of them decides to go cannibal or they realize how stupid this is. Truly, an epic conflict.
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Mar 6, 2015 17:28
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It's not absurd for Gauru to be incredibly tough, such that they basically demand a Gauru-level answer. It is absurd for Gauru to be functionally invincible, such that two Gauru werewolves who fight each other are doing nothing but wasting the other's time. This is worse than a game that allows two werewolves in the war form to fight each other (rather than stall each other) such that one actually wins. It looks more stupid in the mind's eye and is simply less exciting for those involved. You can have the first thing but not the second thing! That's what we already had in past editions of Werewolf!
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Mar 6, 2015 17:31
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Yea I don't think it makes much sense if going nuclear and unleashing your most uncontrolled violence is actually a sensible way to survive someone else doing the same to you. It should be a desperate thing you would do to kill them before they can kill you, not a shield you use defensively. Even if it becomes a matter of time before someone drops Gauru and is immediately reduced to paste, it's still a lot less dramatic than an actual fight.
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Mar 6, 2015 17:42
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Ferrinus posted:The problem is that one werewolf in Gauru can't beat another. They can't "show dominance" not in the sense of showing, but in the sense of dominating. One werewolf in Gauru can't make traction against another werewolf in Gauru, let alone decisively end a combat, except by dealing the kind of damage that takes a week per point to heal. How is that better than 1E, in which war-form werewolves could mix it up and deal damage to each other normally and send the losers of fights fleeing in fear but able to recuperate from their loss in fewer than two months? Keep reading? You're ignoring the fact that there's more things a gauru can do than just stand there and do a regular attack. If you have Slaughterer or Primal Strength or any variety of other gifts, you're likely rolling over to aggravated damage with every hit. And that's pretending that every werewolf is going to be in a one-on-one fight for some reason.
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Mar 6, 2015 18:31
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nofather posted:Keep reading? You're ignoring the fact that there's more things a gauru can do than just stand there and do a regular attack. If you have Slaughterer or Primal Strength or any variety of other gifts, you're likely rolling over to aggravated damage with every hit. And that's pretending that every werewolf is going to be in a one-on-one fight for some reason. You should take your own advice, because you missed the part where the long healing time necessary for agg is basically counterproductive for a fight over dominance.
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Mar 6, 2015 18:34
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Effectronica posted:You should take your own advice, because you missed the part where the long healing time necessary for agg is basically counterproductive for a fight over dominance. That's what Hunter's aspect is for. Gauru isn't for asserting dominance over another werewolf, it's for killing them.
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Mar 6, 2015 18:43
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nofather posted:Keep reading? You're ignoring the fact that there's more things a gauru can do than just stand there and do a regular attack. If you have Slaughterer or Primal Strength or any variety of other gifts, you're likely rolling over to aggravated damage with every hit. And that's pretending that every werewolf is going to be in a one-on-one fight for some reason. Okay so if you have special Gifts or other attack boosts above and beyond the default offense granted by Gauru form, you can deal bits and pieces of permanent, long-term chip damage to your enemy. (As we all know, the 2E World of Darkness combat system was written with increasing the importance of chip damage in mind) Without those Gifts, you can't actually threaten them at all and a Gauru vs. Gauru fight is just a waste of everyone's time. How is this better than the previous set of rules in which Gauru vs. Gauru could be decided in favor of either fighter right out the gate, and the addition of attack-boosting powers and/or the addition of agg-dealing powers could further raise or change the tenor or stakes of the fight? Ferrinus fucked around with this message at 19:01 on Mar 6, 2015 |
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Mar 6, 2015 18:57
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nofather posted:That's what Hunter's aspect is for. Gauru isn't for asserting dominance over another werewolf, it's for killing them. Only if you've specialized in combat, though. If you haven't, it doesn't have the puissance to do it.
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Mar 6, 2015 18:58
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I refuse to believe that this never came up during playtesting. What say you, DigitalRaven? Are we missing something, or are Gauru-on-Gauru fights working as intended?
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Mar 6, 2015 19:00
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While I'm not crazy about elongated Gauru combats, I do think its weird that the suggested answers to the stated issue of Gauru-on-Gauru combat involves reducing the ability of Gauru to soak damage entirely. I'd rather have a rule subsystem that targets the specific case in games I run.
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Mar 6, 2015 19:35
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I mean, you could just make Gauru werewolves deal agg or resistant damage to other Gauru werewolves and make that the end of it, but the reason that my suggestions involve reducing the ability of Gauru to soak damage entirely is, the listed ability of Gauru to soak damage isn't actually good for the game. It's exciting on paper right up until the moment you realize that everyone gets to do it rather than just your character. (I think a lot of the questionable decisions made in designing 2E combat fall under that umbrella, actually) It reminds me of nothing so much as perfect defenses from past editions of Exalted - wow, I can spend 3 of my 40 mp, which I can get like 2-4 of back every round, to dodge anything? Anything? Wow! Sign me up! Wipe to a few years later, and...
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Mar 6, 2015 19:44
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Also, also, from a fiction-first perspective, werewolves are far more commonly capable of getting back up from taking damage than ignoring it outright.
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Mar 6, 2015 19:49
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Effectronica posted:Also, also, from a fiction-first perspective, werewolves are far more commonly capable of getting back up from taking damage than ignoring it outright. Just thinking aloud, but are Gauru immune to wound penalties and passing out at full bashing? I don't think so, unless they're in death rage. If so, once a gauru hits full bashing there's a chance they're out of it until their next turn, and if they hit full lethal they're definitely out of it, giving you a chance to pile on and put the boot in to load them up with aggravated. Just because B and L goes away at the start of their next turn doesn't mean it doesn't have effects between turns, right?
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Mar 6, 2015 19:59
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