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Man, I feel awful now. I was going on what I did last time but perhaps advice has changed since 8 years ago (though I was going for something like the simple setup here but with a bunch of big rocks on the bottom) ! The tank just arrived and it does now seem smaller than I had imagined, and I'm not sure what to do since the aquatics guy ordered it in specially. drat  I was so excited to get another axolotl.Would a 24 x 15 x 12 be ok? Bollock Monkey fucked around with this message at 19:31 on Mar 5, 2015 |
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Mar 5, 2015 18:56
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Are canister filters an option with smaller tanks like that, in terms of waste removal?
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Mar 5, 2015 19:15
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A tank the size you have can work, and you might not ever have problems, but with things like axolotls, bigger is always better since there's so much more room for error. They're just listing that size as a bare minimum, whereas I recommend something larger instead, so you don't need to feel bad! Anything bigger than that is going to be fine - what mostly matters is surface area, so the depth of the water isn't as important beyond the extra water for heat and waste related issues. Are aquariums not common over there? You can walk into even a Wal Mart here and come out with a ten gallon tank for $12 or so, it just seems weird that you had to have it special ordered. I could spend five minutes on craigslist and find a dozen people selling tanks between 10 and 50 gallons for really affordable prices if I needed to. It will work, especially for a smaller animal, but you might want to consider upgrading as it grows bigger. Canister filters can work with axolotls, but you need to worry about it generating a current, and if the animal is small enough, it could get hurt from the filter/sucked into it. Filters can also generate heat, which can be bad - a few extra degrees over room temperature can lead to stress issues in axolotls. If I were to use a filter, I'd get one several sizes smaller than rated for the tank, but really, plants and water changes will do that all for you without a filter. Or you could get one of those filters that's basically an airline with some charcoal at the end - oxygenates the water and the charcoal provides some chemical filtration, and room for bacteria to colonize, too. But yeah, plants also look really nice, at the same time and provide somewhere for the animals to hide, so that's why I really like them. You can't kill java moss, provided they get at least low light, and Elodea is pretty hardy, too. I just ordered a ton of java moss for some animals at work and it was just $30 with shipping, and a lot of pet stores carry it, too - used to get big clumps of it from a pet store and it would grow pretty well. A friend of mine used to have tons of it and would pretty much let it fill his salamander tanks, so it also provided some resting land area for some of his newts. And with Elodea, I bought some six years ago and dumped it in my siren pools, and it's doing really well for me. Great plants, pretty easy even for beginners.
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Mar 5, 2015 20:29
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The more cube-shaped aquariums are pretty common, but getting length over depth is trickier, I've found. Plus the tank I got was £27.99 and the 24in is £49.90, so generally it seems one pays more over here for tanks. And yeah, it's easier to go to a shop and have them order something that isn't a standard fish aquarium because of those reasons. Plus I don't have a car (another UK luxury  ) so somewhere that delivers is very handy.I've spoken to the shop and he's happy for me to pay the extra so he can just order the next size up, so I'm thinking to do that and see if he'll knock a fiver off an adult axolotl rather than sticking with the original idea to raise a juvenile I'd buy from the breeder.
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Mar 6, 2015 00:13
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Hazo posted:What do you guys recommend? It's a public exhibit and I'd hate for some kindergartener to come by and see a footless anole getting chomped on by a turtle. Clearly the three species don't belong together, and I can try to convince them to split them up even though it's probably too late for the anole (calcium powder seems like too little too late at this point), but what's a better community for the turtle to share? Can they salvage anything at this point? A public exhibit? Is your friend a teacher? Why are teachers so god drat stupid?  "My class wants a turtle! Can I get a turtle?""Well, what kind of turtle? Aquatic or terrestrial?" "I don't really know or care, but they want a turtle. What about these?" *points to tank with red-eared sliders*"Those get pretty big and aquatic turtles require specialized care and maintenance. Will you have space in your classroom for a 40 gallon tank?" "Can I get one of these and put it in there for a little bit? Then I can upgrade when it needs a bigger habitat." *looking at plastic pet keepers intended for transport*"Have you thought about maybe getting a betta for your class?" "Bettas are lame. My class wants a turtle."
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Mar 6, 2015 15:56
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So, so many animals have died so lovely-pants kids can harass the gently caress out of them for the sake of ~learning~
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Mar 6, 2015 18:52
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I guess I just thought that educators coming in our doors would have more concern for animal welfare and be more open to being informed about proper care but lol nope. My favorite thing is trying to explain how low maintenance snakes are vs. pretty much everything else and being met with "EW SNAKES MY KIDS WON'T LIKE THAT, DISGUSTING!" Like, you're supposed to be opening these kids' minds, right?
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Mar 6, 2015 18:57
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Kids are such assholes. A pre-k class in a preschool I used to work at had a terrarium with 2 leopard geckos in it. The kids opened up the lid and dropped a wooden block on one, completely crushing its eyeball. No one did anything about it cause it's JUST A LIZARD LOL  Edit autocorrect thinks it knows grammar.
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Mar 6, 2015 19:09
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FUCKKKKKKKKKK This is Bruce. He is a Green Anaconda. In 30 days it will be illegal for him to cross state lines, ostensibly to protect him from becoming an invasive species. Green Anacondas require very high, consistent temperatures and humidity to survive in the wild. There is only one part of one state where they could conceivably establish themselves as an invasive species, the Florida Everglades. After decades of them being in the pet trade this has completely failed to happen. Even so, today it was announced that the Lacey Act is being used to restrict import, export, and interstate trade of this species, as well as several others, including the Reticulated Python. This will damage the livelihoods of many people I know. This policy is not based on sound science, nor will it have much if any effect on the Everglades, as Green Anacondas are already illegal in Florida. This hurts the reptile community as a whole. We need to stand together and fight back against this bad regulation. Also, gently caress the police
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Mar 6, 2015 20:03
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Not a teacher. Just a small public science exhibit, and kids do not handle or torture them from what I know. I suppose they just found three of the most common local herp species and tossed one of each into the large tank to help tourists/passers-by get educated on what they might see, and nobody told them that the three animals shouldn't share the same enclosure environment.
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Mar 6, 2015 20:12
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So my wife and I live in an apartment that does not allow cats or dogs but there is a possibility to keep animals that are in enclosed glass tanks so we're seriously considering getting a reptile as a pet, specifically a bearded dragon. I've been researching about their care, diet, and what to expect from them for the last few days and will continue to do so until if/when we do decide to actually get one which won't be before the end of the month at least. But I'm curious if any of you goons can offer me any advice or tips about bearded dragon care specifically. Edit: Also if anyone could point me towards online resources that would be helpful I would really appreciate it.
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Mar 7, 2015 02:27
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Who What Now posted:So my wife and I live in an apartment that does not allow cats or dogs but there is a possibility to keep animals that are in enclosed glass tanks so we're seriously considering getting a reptile as a pet, specifically a bearded dragon. I've been researching about their care, diet, and what to expect from them for the last few days and will continue to do so until if/when we do decide to actually get one which won't be before the end of the month at least. But I'm curious if any of you goons can offer me any advice or tips about bearded dragon care specifically. I recommend setting everything up a day before you bring little buddy home, so you can monitor everything and make sure it's perfect. As for resources, I use http://www.beautifuldragons.com/, personally.
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Mar 7, 2015 03:53
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Bearded dragons are fun. Mine is a jerk but he's still cool. How big of an enclosure are you willing to get? Bearded dragons can grow to be about 2 feet long and need large tanks.
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Mar 7, 2015 04:15
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Just keep in mind that you'll need fresh vegetables all the time. The beardie at work literally eats better than I do.
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Mar 7, 2015 06:42
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My snake made a new friend "Scamp" today! They're hugging! Best friends for life! Switched her substrate to eco-earth because I didn't like the lovely huge woodchips she came with & I was having a hard time managing the humidity. Went with it because I've used it for frogs a lot in the past & I have a pretty good sense of how long it retains moisture for. I'll report back with how she likes it & how easy it is to keep at 50% humidity. Right now I have a 1.5" thick tamped layer of it down, but I'm thinking about adding some loose substrate next time I take her out + when the humidity goes down. A quick search online reveals that a few people had concerns about their snake's ability to digest it, but I feed her in a separate container for behavior reasons & I specifically used to use the stuff because frogs digest it easily so who knows. Maybe snakes can't pass it and frogs can, maybe internet people are crazy. Worst case scenario I have 3 large empty terrariums and a few bricks of substrate, what can go wrong? Silver Nitrate posted:Ahhhh that's scary. I use Sani-chips, they are like little bitty squares of aspen. For my guys that need a little extra humidity, I sprinkle damp sphagnum moss on top. Kinda want to try this stuff out so my snake can burrow, I think she might like it more. How long does that stuff hold moisture for? Samila posted:I had a scary moment with my corn snake a few nights ago. I heard a strange thumping in one of my racks, so I checked it out and found my corn snake (who only goes in the rack when it's too cold for her to be in her big outdoor tank) thrashing around wildly with blood trickling from her mouth. I would play it on the safe side if my herp had a potential cut on their mouth. Just to be safe I would slightly up the temperature, do a warm pedialyte or at least warm water soak (ideally it would drink some,) minimize stress, and with mouth area wounds I would even do hydro-peroxide or another herp friendly disinfectant before I see symptoms. Usually they're fine without it, but it can get bad quick if they get infected and substrate is usually a bacteria shitshow. Preventative care is huge and $8 of poo poo you can buy at the grocery store can save you a $$$ exotic pets vet visit. HEY VAPER fucked around with this message at 08:47 on Mar 7, 2015 |
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Mar 7, 2015 08:28
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OneTwentySix posted:Just keep in mind that you'll need fresh vegetables all the time. The beardie at work literally eats better than I do. Luckily there's a Farmer's Market/Whole Foods Store literally across the street so that won't be an issue. Fitzy Fitz posted:Bearded dragons are fun. Mine is a jerk but he's still cool. I don't think we'd be able to have a tank longer than 4', maybe 5' and have it fit anywhere in our apartment. Would that be an issue?
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Mar 7, 2015 16:20
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Who What Now posted:Luckily there's a Farmer's Market/Whole Foods Store literally across the street so that won't be an issue. No that's fine. The minimum tank size for an adult beardie is 40G. My girl is only 18" long so I have her in a 40 but if she had gotten to the max size of 24" I would have tried to get her something a little bigger.
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Mar 7, 2015 16:51
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Silver Nitrate posted:FUCKKKKKKKKKK The legislation is a loving joke. Politwerking for votes. See also: The Simpsons' Bear Patrol. I took in a 5.5 foot salmon boa (largely because she's a beauty, a sweetie, and I've plenty of time and space for her) but also because every new tailchaser desperate for votes puts boas on the ban list. And they were initially on this lastest act of "Freedumb!" too. Almost a century ago Will Roger's quipped: Well, prohibition is better than no liquor at all. Indeed.
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Mar 8, 2015 04:28
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Bobbaganoosh posted:The legislation is a loving joke. Politwerking for votes. See also: The Simpsons' Bear Patrol. Best description I've ever heard. HEY VAPER posted:Switched her substrate to eco-earth because I didn't like the lovely huge woodchips she came with & I was having a hard time managing the humidity. I don't use eco-earth for my balls simply because I live in Florida, so any kind of damp substrate makes my enclosures way too humid. I only switch my girls to cypress mulch when they go into pre-lay shed until after they lay their eggs, and that's it. I know some people in less humid places who use eco-earth though. Thanks for the advice about the aspen stab wound. It's probably a bit late for direct wound treatment (which I didn't attempt intially because it's almost in her throat, I could barely even see it). At the time I did give her a brief soak in warm water, which she drank from, then switched her to a clean tub with paper towels and gave her a bowl of fresh water. She's been doing fine so luckily I think she's in the clear. It may have helped that I recently switched from using vinegar solution as a cleaner to F10SCXD, which is a vet-grade soap/disinfectant. I'm pretty particular about the cleanliness of my enclosures anyway. I never spot clean, that's nasty. Hell, I don't even dry off two clean tubs with the same towel.
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Mar 8, 2015 07:10
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Silver Nitrate posted:FUCKKKKKKKKKK Welcome to my world Silver. I have been dealing with this bullshit for a couple years now. My beautiful burm Ditty will cause me to break the law if I decide to move out of state. Ditty has been my baby since she has been out of the egg. She goes all kinds of places with me and teaches people that snakes aren't horrible monsters. I love my girl and someone will have to pry her from my cold dead hands if they want to take her away.   
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Mar 10, 2015 00:29
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So, there are a few things going on with the new additions to the Lacey act. First, there is going to be a filing for an injunction. Second, USArk is going to be adding more people to their lawsuit. Third, some medical researcher dude has volunteered to do a meta-analysis of the studies done on invasive large snakes, as they do not agree with the USGS data. There's probably some other poo poo going on, but at least one congressman has spoken out against the ban and several people (myself included) are contacting Republican and Libertarian politicians (ick) and trying to sell this as OVER REGULATION KILLING SMALL BUSINESS. Retics are big money, yo. And the whole thing about active duty military people and their families being utterly SOL. So maybe something will happen? I mean, the fight against it made NPR at least.
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Mar 10, 2015 01:07
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Who is gaining something from the regulating of these snakes? I think the Lacey Act is pretty interesting so I'm trying to better understand the background of the amendment.
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Mar 10, 2015 01:56
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FWS doesn't want to deal with another Burm invasion, but this has been heavily lobbied for by HSUS who are completely opposed to the keeping of reptiles in captivity
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Mar 10, 2015 02:23
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Silver Nitrate posted:FWS doesn't want to deal with another Burm invasion, but this has been heavily lobbied for by HSUS who are completely opposed to the keeping of reptiles in captivity Any animals, not just herps, if I remember right?
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Mar 10, 2015 11:47
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This is the Humane Society's page on snakes. It's full of disinformation and hyperbole. It's also completely correct about one thing: the large majority of captive reptiles are owned for less than one year, who typically kill them through ignorance and neglect. I think the Lacy act is really really bad, but I do agree that America has a serious problem with inhumane treatment of animals. We need to do a lot better regulating who can sell exotic animals, and what responsibilities they should have in educating their customers (and refusing to sell to customers who obviously don't understand what they're getting into). This thread is a good example: we encourage first-timers to get their feet wet with hardy, easier-to-care-for animals, we're pretty clear about what constitutes adequate keeping and feeding practices, and we discourage people from casually committing to animals that can (should) live for decades. The whole boa thing is just ridiculous fearmongering, though. 12 deaths since1990? How many people have pet dogs killed in the same time period? Does that mean nobody should keep pet dogs? People decide they don't want snakes any more and abandon them. No poo poo. They do that with literally hundreds of thousands of cats and dogs every year, too. And abandoned/irresponsibly-kept cats in particular have a massive impact on the local wildlife. We don't see the humane society advocating laws to prohibit the sale or keeping of cats, now, do we? So I'm torn. The Humane Society does a hell of a lot of good work, but they're so wrong on this issue.
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Mar 11, 2015 02:35
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Leperflesh posted:This is the Humane Society's page on snakes. It's full of disinformation and hyperbole. It's also completely correct about one thing: the large majority of captive reptiles are owned for less than one year, who typically kill them through ignorance and neglect. edit: My original judgment of The Humane Society was probably a little harsh but I still think ASPCA is a far better national org when it comes to animal welfare. Local Humane Society shelters are usually fantastic and only loosely affiliated with the national org though. As someone who works at a big box pet store I'm well-aware that my company is part of the problem, but all of the staff at the stores I have worked at are extremely concerned about animal welfare and want to make sure the people we sell to take good care of their pets. It's pretty lovely that any yahoo can walk in and buy a red tail boa without understanding what they're getting into, but I will straight up tell people "no" if I get the feeling that they aren't going to at least be attempting to properly care for the animals they want to purchase. The funny thing is that the worst people aren't necessarily the uneducated (at least when it comes to herps, aquatics is another story entirely) but usually the people who have "read a few things on the internet" or "have been keeping (animals) for years now." Like people that feed their beardies pinkies and want to move them up to live adult mice or the couple today that I just barely managed to talk out of feeding crickets and worms to their baby iguana. Professor Beetus fucked around with this message at 04:06 on Mar 11, 2015 |
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Mar 11, 2015 04:03
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Pet stores are bad, especially the big national chains, but also a lot of the small local places that mostly sell dogs and cats and a few birds and they have one or two fish tanks with $random reptile in it. But in my limited experience, the very worst are the herp shows, where legions of families with their kids wander the aisles looking at a few hundred herps and then buy an animal, a generic Herp starter kit, food, etc. just to get their 9-year-old to stop begging for a loving Sulcata. The vendors are usually way to busy to actually have an in-depth investigative conversation with a harried parent about the multi-generational commitment of a tortoise, much less dissect the bargain Dad just forged with his son that he can have it but he has to promise to take real good care of it, because I'm not going to do it for you. The condition of the animals often leaves a lot to be desired, too: transport to and from the herp show is stressful, a lot of them are in little tubs under bight lights being picked up and inspected every five minutes, etc. etc. My wife and I used to look forward to going to our local shows (San Mateo and Sacramento, CA) but we stopped a few years back after all the frogs we bought at one died within days, and we had a chance to chat with one or two vendors who work the shows and hear some of their horror stories. I feel bad for the vendors, too: some of them pretty much have to sell at shows in order to make a living, because if they don't, individual sales and occasional sales to pet stores just aren't enough to stay viable. There are a few pet stores that do their best to have educated staff, but there's a lot that don't, and too many that treat all reptiles (and all amphibians) with identical housing/food/humidity/temperature. Two of my cresties are rescues from a local PetCo that was doing their best to kill them, for example (that was in ~2005 or so, and they're still doing great  . I don't really know what the right solution or set of solutions are to improve herp & amphibian pet care conditions and survival rates. I'm only sure that ignorant legislative bans are not the right approach. Leperflesh fucked around with this message at 06:06 on Mar 11, 2015 |
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Mar 11, 2015 06:03
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Jfc boas are not pythons. Only one person has ever been killed by a boa. HSUS is NOT affiliated with your local humane society. They are a loving lobbying organization that gives less that one percent of their income to actual animal shelters. Edit: that probably came out really harsh I've had a pretty poo poo day trying to decide if I need to sell my animals or not. If you want to learn more about HSUS and what they use all that drat money to do, check out humanewatch.org.you can also look them up on charity grading places, they're pretty lousy all around. Silver Nitrate fucked around with this message at 03:33 on Mar 12, 2015 |
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Mar 12, 2015 03:25
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I got a new foster snake. He sucks. He's 6 feet long, has a real hosed up face, and is completely and totally fixated on food or anything that could be food (this includes me). So I've got this giant gnarly old snake tracking me all day and I've been told he will bite me. Sweet! After I fed him he spent almost an hour trying to eat the rat juice off of the ground. Finally, I pinned him in the corner with a hook and cleaned that poo poo up and he stopped. Anyway, he hasn't struck at me and I have some hooks. One of my buddies said that he rescued a similarly skinny snake and after a few months it stopped doing this poo poo. Only time will tell. Feed your snakes, please.   MUST HAVE RAT JUICE  He needs a name, any ideas?
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Mar 14, 2015 20:27
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Suarez! Also he is very pretty, so just accept a few bites.
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Mar 14, 2015 21:04
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The first time I saw this picture, I thought the rat feet were part of the snake's mouth and I was very horrified and confused. Name him Omar.
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Mar 14, 2015 22:33
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Pile of Kittens posted:The first time I saw this picture, I thought the rat feet were part of the snake's mouth and I was very horrified and confused. Me too D:
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Mar 14, 2015 22:43
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It's even better if you look at pretty pictures and don't read text like me and try to figure out why the snake has a pair of decrepit human hands reaching out of its mouth
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Mar 14, 2015 22:57
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Pile of Kittens posted:The first time I saw this picture, I thought the rat feet were part of the snake's mouth and I was very horrified and confused.
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Mar 15, 2015 00:24
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Samila posted:Best description I've ever heard. Glad to hear your snake's doing well! Looks like eco earth works great for my climate (pacific NW) it's been sitting between 50-65% humidity since I changed the substrate and I haven't sprayed it once. Perfect! The cheap big wood chips + paper stuff the previous owner gave me was requiring daily maintenance. Sometimes its mildly annoying that there's a bit of substrate on the snake when I take her out of her enclosure but beyond that, no complaints.
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Mar 15, 2015 01:08
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When it comes to wounds I am always amazed at the healing abilities of snakes. We had a speaker who saw a snake get hit by a car, it lived, and he nursed it back to health. It had so many broken ribs that it "felt like a beanbag" when he held it. But lil snake bro ate, moved, and drank normally. After a few months of being used in educational programs, it was released back into the wild.
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Mar 15, 2015 01:46
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I caught my first spotted salamander today! Spring has finally come here. Sort of, kinda. Also wood frogs and spring peepers. Been a fun week with those, a dusky and a two-lined all in a 4 day time frame. Also, one garter snake that it looked like a raccoon or something dug it out of a hibernacula. Thing was too cold to move, and had small wounds all over, plus hemorrhaging around the cloaca
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Mar 15, 2015 04:50
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ZarathustraFollower posted:wood frogs I just caught one today on a demolition job and decided to make it a captive. Disturbed it in the middle of hunting a gigantic hobo spider and felt bad for ruining its meal, so it earned spoon-fed cricket meals for life courtesy of yours truly. Kind of a weird thing to keep captive, but I've always had the most fun with native species. Also caught a little what-i-think-is-a-tree-frog-or-chorus-frog of some sort the size of my pinkie nail and decided to keep it too. Haven't really for-sure identified them because they're both really stressed out at the moment, but I'm building terrariums tonight and I'll get to it in a couple weeks once they've chilled out and gotten used to their surroundings. Little guy's going to look pretty funny in my 2'x2'x2' cube tank. (and before anyone gets their panties in a knot over wild caught, yes I have a lot of experience with wc frogs and I've dealt with just about every health issue/behavior issue that comes with the territory, not my first rodeo..)
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Mar 19, 2015 03:28
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HEY VAPER posted:I just caught one today on a demolition job and decided to make it a captive. Disturbed it in the middle of hunting a gigantic hobo spider and felt bad for ruining its meal, so it earned spoon-fed cricket meals for life courtesy of yours truly. Kind of a weird thing to keep captive, but I've always had the most fun with native species. Also caught a little what-i-think-is-a-tree-frog-or-chorus-frog of some sort the size of my pinkie nail and decided to keep it too. Haven't really for-sure identified them because they're both really stressed out at the moment, but I'm building terrariums tonight and I'll get to it in a couple weeks once they've chilled out and gotten used to their surroundings. Little guy's going to look pretty funny in my 2'x2'x2' cube tank. I've never had an issue with people keeping common species that they've caught. Most of us have done it at some point. Post pics.
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Mar 19, 2015 03:43
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Big Centipede posted:I've never had an issue with people keeping common species that they've caught. Most of us have done it at some point. I'll post some in a few days probably. Tiny one's pretty chillax but the bigger one wasn't too amused about spending my whole work day in a gatorade bottle with dirt in the bottom. Leaving that one alone for a bit until I take pictures, identify their species, sex them etc. It's also kind of a pain to take pictures of the enclosures because they're both packed tightly in a dark closet until I reorganize my room and figure out what I'm going to do with them. Think I did a pretty alright job on the enclosures. Kind of rushed the little guy's (and it's comically huge, I ended up putting him in a 50gal long tank) but I put the big one in my cube tank and half-assedly emulated my last pacific chorus frog's enclosure in a dark closet. The last time I posted about a wc frog in here on a different account years ago, I caught a lot of hate for keeping it and didn't come back to PI for probably a year after a page or two of "you're going to kill it and now you can't let it out, good job idiot" posts so I was kind of expecting the same reaction. That frog ended up living for 3 years until I moved + couldn't keep her and left her in the care of a supposed HERP enthusiast I met online, who proceeded to kill her and my 7 other rana frogs in a mere half a year. I caught them all together before they even absorbed their tails, and some of them were up to 3-4" length by the time he took ownership At least he gave me my terrariums back. The rana PI got mad at me about ended up growing quite a bit bigger than the internet claims they can, and she got big enough to eat pinkies, so I think I did pretty well all things considered. Actually have her preserved in alcohol+injected formeldehyde+glycerine in a jar on my desk, always staring at me, and yes it is very loving creepy. Speaking of, friendly reminder I hate crickets and everything to do with breeding them. Ugh. I was enjoying this whole "buy a mouse every couple weeks" snake deal. edit: the one i thought was a wood frog is actually a male pacific chorus frog, of course the most annoying native frog species/gender combination possible. Good thing I have a soft spot for these ones! My last one was a female, and it was pretty much silent save for making the cutest "I'm annoyed" squeaking noise whenever I tried to handle her. This male's loud and proud. Tinyfrog is really growing on me but I have no idea what I'm going to feed it, it's so small I feel like it could get seriously injured by cricket bites easily and may have trouble taking down even the smallest crickets. Might go try my luck at digging up some tiny worms. This one's obviously really young so it actually has hope for being trained to eat from a dish. HEY VAPER fucked around with this message at 09:18 on Mar 19, 2015 |
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Mar 19, 2015 08:11
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