EATIN SHRIMP posted:Shut the gently caress up Bad posters sure get mad at me.
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Mar 6, 2015 01:37
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We just need better security nets for people like veterans, they are one of many groups that are sociologicaly at risk for falling through the cracks if you will. Homeless dead or in jail. That's what happens when people are ignored or invisible. This can be rape victims, drug addicts, minorities, mentally ill, veterans, illegal immigrants. When people don't really care about these issues or only in token ways like bumper stickers or Facebook shares, society becomes a worse place for everyone. American Sniper seemed to have this message but people act like it's not even there, and turn it into partisan political bullshit ignoring individuals who might need our support as a shared society, which is exactly the problem.
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Mar 6, 2015 01:54
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Slugworth posted:I seriously can't keep track of what you are arguing. What are you personally doing that you wish the rest of the population would do? What could I do to prove that I care, as the original argument was worded, more about the civilians that died on 9/11 than the property damage incurred? You obviously wish troops weren't in Iraq, and if you don't care that they are in Iraq, the way they got there was really loving stupid. You have to realize that, on some level, they have no choice but to be there. Do some research on what people did in regards to Vietnam. They spit on troops, yes, which is terrible in my opinion (especially given the fact that the draft was still in place), but they were also very effective with national-level protests that helped end Vietnam. It wasn't the only cause of Vietnam ending, but it had a large, LARGE impact. When is the last time you saw a protest that wasn't just a regional thing that didn't just die off? The problem is there aren't enough people who are willing to do something because it doesn't impact them at all. Vietnam impacted a lot more people than Iraq, in some ways because there was a draft. Vietnam is a study in how you can show you care and still not directly support the war effort (which I think you think I am implying must be done). Otherwise, you're living as if you are content with the status quo. And yes, 9/11 impacted civil liberties. We both agree on that. But it hasn't really impacted anything in a tangible way, so nobody cares about how it has impacted their civil liberties. People don't care about Big Brother being over their shoulder as long as he doesn't turn off the power or touch the keyboard. It is seriously not a joke when I say this: Take social media down and watch how many people actually start giving a poo poo about the world around them. Unfortunately people have the option of living online and avoiding all the terrible poo poo that is going on, they just don't realize (or don't care) how their privacy is being impacted for the sake of national security.
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Mar 6, 2015 02:17
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If you're going to talk about how veterans deserve respect, maybe they should be professionals. Part of being a professional soldier is not whining to everyone else about how your benefits(which are better than most people in the private sector) aren't good enough. Be professional and then sit down and shut up. If/when you quit the Army, go find some other work or stay if you can't do anything else. They don't need the blowjobs in the media or all the dumb remembrance poo poo. All it is is hero worship anyway. If you want to get yourself killed/kill yourself, be my guest. These aren't men with the wherewithal, for example, to kill people in situations where that killing has consequences, like, say, fragging an incompetent superior, no, it's just hajjis. Anyway the movie is garbage.
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Mar 6, 2015 03:21
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Panzeh posted:If you're going to talk about how veterans deserve respect, maybe they should be professionals. Part of being a professional soldier is not whining to everyone else about how your benefits(which are better than most people in the private sector) aren't good enough. Be professional and then sit down and shut up. If/when you quit the Army, go find some other work or stay if you can't do anything else. I kind of agree with you that veterans shouldn't be treated different from other people for their line of work and tough experiences. Many people like EMTs or social workers, caretakers of elderly, even the cops we often hate on see things as hosed up as a soldier would in a warzone with neglected abused children, violence, crime scenes, grime and garbage feet high in a dead old persons house. I think everyone could be treated better and more open about the poo poo side of life though. It's wrong to condemn one group for sharing their experiences cuz you have it as bad, when you could be finding common ground with them. There's a better path for society pushing forward with how open and easy we can communicate with each other, outside of the filters of corporate media and garbage propaganda spinsters. This movie just made me think about that a lot. Not the movie itself but people's reactions. We are using the Internet so incorrectly when it's just thrashing pop culture pieces and parroting partisanship positions, instead of discussing shared human experiences with an open mind.
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Mar 6, 2015 03:33
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Smoothrich posted:I kind of agree with you that veterans shouldn't be treated different from other people for their line of work and tough experiences. Many people like EMTs or social workers, caretakers of elderly, even the cops we often hate on see things as hosed up as a soldier would in a warzone with neglected abused children, violence, crime scenes, grime and garbage feet high in a dead old persons house. For what it's worth, I don't ever tell people I'm a veteran until it's relevant to the conversation for the sole purpose of not getting treated any different than anyone else. I don't even ask for military discounts anywhere. The only reason it's so easily brought up here is because it's written all over my post history, but outside of this thread I don't think I talk about being in the mil anywhere outside of gip.
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Mar 6, 2015 04:31
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Cole posted:For what it's worth, I don't ever tell people I'm a veteran until it's relevant to the conversation for the sole purpose of not getting treated any different than anyone else. I don't even ask for military discounts anywhere. Yah but when you got life experiences that are different from others you probably have different reactions from them on things like this movie. It'll mean something different to you, and it's valuable to share different opinions in a discussion. Or else you get echo chambers like this thread was where everyone agrees American Sniper is pro war propaganda when me and you see it differently, for our own separate reasons. My dad could of been Chris Kyle so I don't hate on him cuz my dad is a racist rear end in a top hat kind of guy talking about third world Asians, has guns, and is emotionally closed off not talking about war experience stuff to anyone probably ever. Yet ppl here say Chris Kyle memoir don't mention PTSD struggling with killing and horror like he didn't feel it when he probably just didn't or couldn't express that side of him. I love the Internet cuz I can read regular people from all walks of life relate themselves to each other removed from the bullshit like the Cheney Rumsfeld lies and dishonesty that still define Iraq to many. But some people hear crap they disagree with and think your brainwashed or pathetic or something instead of just different. Veterans are out there making the best arguments against war and for support groups and job training for people like them so nothing wrong with being honest about who you are if it could do good or teach people something new.
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Mar 6, 2015 08:16
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Smoothrich posted:Yah but when you got life experiences that are different from others you probably have different reactions from them on things like this movie. It'll mean something different to you, and it's valuable to share different opinions in a discussion. Or else you get echo chambers like this thread was where everyone agrees American Sniper is pro war propaganda when me and you see it differently, for our own separate reasons. My dad could of been Chris Kyle so I don't hate on him cuz my dad is a racist rear end in a top hat kind of guy talking about third world Asians, has guns, and is emotionally closed off not talking about war experience stuff to anyone probably ever. Yet ppl here say Chris Kyle memoir don't mention PTSD struggling with killing and horror like he didn't feel it when he probably just didn't or couldn't express that side of him. Well, on the internet you don't really have to filter yourself through the social conventions, which is awesome, really. You're right, though, that people don't go to the internet for diversity, they go to the internet to hear what they want to hear. Anyway, Chris Kyle's book is about as truthful as Cheney and Rumsfield's reasons to go into Iraq. He quite literally said he found the WMDs in Iraq in this book. I don't see the value in it, really, though a movie that approached it in any way would be a lot more interesting than the one we got. There are war memoirs that are a lot more informative and interesting out there, and choosing this one just felt like idiocy. There are veterans making arguments against war and there are veterans talking about how we need to nuke more hajjis. I don't see the point in humoring the latter. We don't need to be nice to people who hold abhorrent opinions, and they have nothing to teach.
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Mar 6, 2015 11:50
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Your right. You can tell them that to their Internet faces and ask for them to defend themselves, the people who want to glass the Middle East. No way to get past racist regressive poo poo unless people know there are other ways to think and good reasons why. I wonder if there are reasonable Iraqis posting somewhere who speak English and experienced our invasion from a different perspective like one the divisions that surrendered immediately. And you don't have to respect people's opinions but many people have more nuanced thinking than you can figure. Maybe kill all hajis means kill all ISIS types that were commanding child soldiers and suicide bombers but they don't communicate it good enough to not sound racist. I doubt even the craziest marine redneck wants to see innocent children be victims of war even the children of their enemies, unless they are true sociopaths.
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Mar 6, 2015 12:57
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I feel the need to point out in really simple terms why a couple of the posters in this thread (particularly Cole) defending this movie against posters wishing it had been more accurate with regard to the book and/or more anti-war are being* dumb. The posters in question have basically been arguing that the people criticizing this movie are being stupid because the more anti-war movie accurately portraying Chris Kyle that they wanted to see isn't the movie the director chose to make. This is dumb because it is literally the exact same thing as someone saying "I don't like ______ because he is an rear end in a top hat" and then someone else defending ______ by saying "But that's how he chooses to be, and last I checked you don't have the right to force him to behave a certain way  " I am not exaggerating in the slightest; those "but the director didn't choose to make the movie the way you wanted" arguments are every bit as dumb as this. Saying "The director doesn't have to make a movie the way you want him to!" is not an argument against someone else saying "I think this movie is bad."; you should either point out why the stuff people say is bad isn't bad or just admit that you've lost the argument.Also, related to this same point, it is really stupid to say "Hollywood doesn't have a responsibility to make movies about recent history historically accurate and not pro-war." That is not a counter-argument against people saying that they think Hollywood should do these things. It would only be a reasonable argument if some poster started saying that they think the government should force movie film studios at gunpoint to make movies this way. It does not contradict a poster that is saying that he/she thinks it is bad that Hollywood doesn't do these things. I feel silly having to point this out, but I've read many pages of this thread that seem to show that certain people need this to be explicitly stated. *Just want to make it clear that I'm not saying that Cole and other posters are dumb people; just that their arguments in this thread are dumb.
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Mar 6, 2015 23:50
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This is historically accurate you aren't talking about Saddam doing 9/11 are you?
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Mar 7, 2015 00:33
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I don't feel like arguing about this anymore
Cole fucked around with this message at 01:58 on Mar 7, 2015 |
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Mar 7, 2015 01:47
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Ytlaya posted:
"Responsibility" doesn't imply "legal responsibility", the critics here are saying Hollywood has a moral responsibility to do that.
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Mar 7, 2015 18:05
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Hollywood is run by people who care about demographics. This movie was designed to appeal to a lot of people and yes much of it is bland. Especially compared to the freedom you see with The Pacific which is HBO not worrying about demos and marketing. They made a good dark series often taken right off the page from the memoirs. But no one talked about it so no one really seemed to care. Because of the setting probably instead of the message. It's stupid to not understand that too. They sneak in an anti war message kind of but in a respectful way to people who had to fight in war by depicting them suffering. I thought it worked and it made tons of money so millions of pro war jerk offs might see people with no limbs struggling to live and be shocked a fellow vet was capable or crazy enough of murdering Chris. You know incremental progress that isn't too offensive so people pay attention and get engaged. Many liberals took that approach as some failing or even glorifying war which is kind of stupid to me, shows people think in black and white taking sides over anything. Smoothrich fucked around with this message at 04:20 on Mar 8, 2015 |
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Mar 8, 2015 04:18
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Smoothrich posted:Many liberals took that approach as some failing or even glorifying war which is kind of stupid to me, shows people think in black and white taking sides over anything. This sentence is art. Those drat liberals, always taking sides.
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Mar 8, 2015 04:39
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Smoothrich posted:Hollywood is run by people who care about demographics. This movie was designed to appeal to a lot of people and yes much of it is bland. Especially compared to the freedom you see with The Pacific which is HBO not worrying about demos and marketing. They made a good dark series often taken right off the page from the memoirs. But no one talked about it so no one really seemed to care. Because of the setting probably instead of the message. Yeah, the last thing HBO is worried about is making money by not worrying about demos and marketing. Wtf?
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Mar 8, 2015 05:13
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Armyman25 posted:Yeah, the last thing HBO is worried about is making money by not worrying about demos and marketing. Wtf? They can focus on quality more than test audiences. Their reputation as a producer of good shows to get subscriptions and sell DVDs. It's their entire angle man.. Snowman_McK posted:This sentence is art. Those drat liberals, always taking sides. I am a liberal and read lots of liberal news. MSNBC actually had balanced coverage inviting veterans activists and harsher critics to discuss the movie and examine it's message and what it means to people and why. Also correcting misconceptions about 9/11 actually meaning something different to people who enlisted after seeing it and having a fellow sniper on a panel who did many tours and killed many people but did it defending his comrades and didn't feel guilty over his job. But crap like Huffington Post Salon avclub idk what else was swamped with trash calling Chris Kyle and by extension all soldiers sociopaths for killing Iraqis and like, praising as freedom fighters many people you see now as ISIS. Was disappointing. Even this thread was like that honestly. Smoothrich fucked around with this message at 09:08 on Mar 8, 2015 |
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Mar 8, 2015 09:00
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A Hollywood blockbuster film directed by Clint Eastwood and starring Bradley Cooper is about as safe a bet as you could make, financially. It's not like they had to make the film as broad and bland as possible to avoid losing money or something. There's certainly more room for error than with a historical drama on HBO.
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Mar 8, 2015 09:27
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Grizzled Patriarch posted:A Hollywood blockbuster film directed by Clint Eastwood and starring Bradley Cooper is about as safe a bet as you could make, financially. It's not like they had to make the film as broad and bland as possible to avoid losing money or something. There's certainly more room for error than with a historical drama on HBO. This movie was a huge success though. So I don't even know what to say about that, it kind of reinforces the idea that it was done the correct way, even if there is so much to say about Iraq that wasn't said. Hurt Locker got the awards but American Sniper got the prestige and will likely be remembered more. I think more people have talked about the Iraqi war and the wastefulness of it all because of American Sniper then I've heard since the start of that stupid war. But it has a very specific focus, on the life of a soldier who believes in himself, a very Clint Eastwood point of view. So that's real good in its own way. Just we shouldn't hate on Chris Kyle for being a dick but hate people like Donald Rumsfeld, Dick Cheney, Paul Bremer. Those are the real villains not the rednecks who they sent over.
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Mar 8, 2015 09:44
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You can hate Nixon and Calley at the same time, dude.
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Mar 8, 2015 10:18
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Armyman25 posted:You can hate Nixon and Calley at the same time, dude. I kind of like Nixon haha. Very ironic that he was the anti war candidate at the time though. Then he showed his solution to ending war was to expand bombing into more countries. Then just leave the region in shambles and withdraw. Kind of like Obama? Haha.
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Mar 8, 2015 10:27
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Who was calling ISIS "heroes"?
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Mar 8, 2015 15:53
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Smoothrich posted:This movie was a huge success though. So I don't even know what to say about that, it kind of reinforces the idea that it was done the correct way, even if there is so much to say about Iraq that wasn't said. Hurt Locker got the awards but American Sniper got the prestige and will likely be remembered more. I think people are making GBS threads on Chris Kyle because he wrote a fictional autobiography and then a movie got made about a similar character with the same name in an equally fictional way. I hate all of the above. I don't see the need to lionize a bullshitter. Smoothrich posted:I doubt even the craziest marine redneck wants to see innocent children be victims of war even the children of their enemies, unless they are true sociopaths. I think Chris Kyle might have been a real sociopath. Too bad we'll never explore that. And the idea that "Hajji" really means "the really bad guys, not all Iraqis" is kinda silly. The Iraqis were fighting foreigners who were occupying their country. I mean I could talk about American soldiers' misdeeds in Iraq, but that would be beyond the point. It's not like these guys fragged their officers who told them to do these things. In Vietnam, the enlisted actually revolted in some ways, in Iraq there was none of that.
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Mar 8, 2015 17:21
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The Iraqis were and still are killing each other more than anything. ISIS was who Chris Kyle is fighting in this movie they just had a different name but same people and leadership. They lynched immolated corpses of Blackwater fighters from a bridge and to this day force kids and women who are easily manipulated into being suicide bombers and poo poo. I don't care what happened some people are evil Iraq is full of hosed up people committing atrocities against others.
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Mar 8, 2015 17:30
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Smoothrich posted:The Iraqis were and still are killing each other more than anything. ISIS was who Chris Kyle is fighting in this movie they just had a different name but same people and leadership. They lynched immolated corpses of Blackwater fighters from a bridge and to this day force kids and women who are easily manipulated into being suicide bombers and poo poo. I don't care what happened some people are evil Iraq is full of hosed up people committing atrocities against others. Kyle was fighting people who could also have been the people fighting ISIS now in Iraq. He also could have been saving people who were doing Abu Gharib, or contractors who pretty much got away with rapes and murders at will. That's how war is. If he had any objections, he could have had his CO have an "accident". He chose not to. Why don't we see stories of the French mutineers in ww1, the guys who fragged their COs in Vietnam, etc., hmm? Not heroic enough for you?
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Mar 8, 2015 17:35
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no one says fragged anymore you sound like a mom trying to fit in and using the slang she thinks is cool when she is hanging out with her kids.
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Mar 8, 2015 17:41
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Cole posted:no one says fragged anymore you sound like a guy who's really mad your mom isn't around to tell you you're great any more
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Mar 8, 2015 17:45
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the movie was alright
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Mar 8, 2015 17:59
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Astrochicken posted:the movie was alright I disagree.
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Mar 8, 2015 18:01
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Cole posted:no one says fragged anymore What's the current phrase?
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Mar 8, 2015 18:02
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Alfred P. Pseudonym posted:I disagree. idk i feel weird that we have conflicting opinions but it's cool i guess.
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Mar 8, 2015 18:06
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You think US soldiers have a moral obligation to murder their commanding officers when they were fighting ISIS? Lmao someone should "frag" you for your posting that would be justifiable homicide probably. He's in Fallujah in the movie isn't he? Go take a tour there you idiot tell me how it goes. You'll be crying on YouTube in a cage as they pour gasoline within a week. Smoothrich fucked around with this message at 18:43 on Mar 8, 2015 |
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Mar 8, 2015 18:39
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Smoothrich posted:This movie was a huge success though. So I don't even know what to say about that, it kind of reinforces the idea that it was done the correct way, even if there is so much to say about Iraq that wasn't said. Hurt Locker got the awards but American Sniper got the prestige and will likely be remembered more. Hurt Locker is going to be remembered long after American Sniper comes and goes, because regardless of politics / accuracy, etc., it was just a better film. American Sniper made a ton of money, which is great for everyone involved, but let's not pretend that "making money" is a valid benchmark for quality. And most people agree that the Cheneys and Rumsfelds of the world are the ones deserving to be put in the hotseat, which is why it's always disappointing when films ignore them completely and sweep that entire aspect of the war under the rug while they distract everyone with the Chris Kyles. That is part of the reason people are upset with this film. It's not "liberals hating the troops," it's people concerned that the stories about those troops are getting used as bread and circus. Notice how in all of the commentary about this film and its historical context, the actual architects of the conflict are almost never mentioned.
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Mar 8, 2015 18:47
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Smoothrich posted:You think US soldiers have a moral obligation to murder their commanding officers when they were fighting ISIS? Lmao someone should "frag" you for your posting that would be justifiable homicide probably. I'm sure everyone US soldiers killed in Iraq was ISIS. Much like we were fighting the Khmer Rouge in Vietnam so it's all good.
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Mar 8, 2015 19:05
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So, is this movie better or worse than Sniper?
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Mar 8, 2015 19:13
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Armyman25 posted:So, is this movie better or worse than Sniper? Tom Berenger is way better than Bradley Cooper. Also more sequels.
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Mar 8, 2015 19:29
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Armyman25 posted:So, is this movie better or worse than Sniper? And I think it arguably portrays a broken man at least as well as American Sniper, which is pretty damning for the latter.
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Mar 8, 2015 19:34
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Panzeh posted:I'm sure everyone US soldiers killed in Iraq was ISIS. Much like we were fighting the Khmer Rouge in Vietnam so it's all good. Go to Fallujah man. Teach me some liberal empathy by manning up and seeing what life is like there. Go show us how Chris Kyle was the real villain on the streets and rooftops of Fallujah then and now.
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Mar 8, 2015 19:36
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Smoothrich posted:Go to Fallujah man. Teach me some liberal empathy by manning up and seeing what life is like there. Go show us how Chris Kyle was the real villain on the streets and rooftops of Fallujah then and now. You're the one asking me to empathize with some asswipe like Chris Kyle. I don't have empathy for ISIS, nor do I for Chris Kyle.
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Mar 8, 2015 19:47
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Smoothrich posted:Go to Fallujah man. Teach me some liberal empathy by manning up and seeing what life is like there. Go show us how Chris Kyle was the real villain on the streets and rooftops of Fallujah then and now. Love the tough guy talk as a deflection. Why the gently caress would I be in Fallujah?
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Mar 8, 2015 19:48
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