Tokyo Sex Whale posted:

Teams were way better at defending the 3 in the 80s when Bird was playing.

Who's the best relative to era?

Tokyo Sex Whale posted:

Teams were way better at defending the 3 in the 80s when Bird was playing.

Who's the best relative to era?

Tokyo Sex Whale posted:

Teams were way better at defending the 3 in the 80s when Bird was playing.

Who's the best relative to era?

Declan MacManus posted:

If you're looking at something like standard deviations of 3P% from league average then it's probably Bird but that's a really boring way to look at things

Tokyo Sex Whale posted:

Volume matters too. Still seems more exciting than "the last guy to do it is the best."

Phil Jackson proposed like 10 or more years ago to move the 3 point line out to create more space which is interesting because he's the most famous advocate of an offense that doesn't really generate 3-pointers and it's like he could tell how the future was going to go and tried to stop it.

Declan MacManus posted:

Does the modern three celebration as we know it trace its lineage to Antoine and Brad Miller? I submit that it probably does


If we're looking at volume as well then it's almost definitely Steph. Using an arbitrary mark of 3.5 attempts per game, Curry Uber Alles. The problem with that is that players didn't start taking a ton of three pointers until the mid-to-late 90s because for some reason no one thought that three points for a shot was better than two. If we make it any lower we get a lot of statistical noise (at 2 3PA per game, >82 games played, our new overlord is Hubert Davis.

For most guys we're projecting their overall jump shooting ability onto their three point shot, historically speaking. That makes it hard to compare guys from era-to-era without using either anecdotal or subjective evidence. Steph Curry is simply the most verifiable best shooter of all time. We have the most data on him and he's also the freshest in our minds.

chunkles posted:

humpthewind posted:

I hate that games on nbatv are not on league pass.

humpthewind posted:

I hate that games on nbatv are not on league pass.

RCarr posted:

"Russell Westbrook is playing GREAT! Should he maybe play a little worse?"

Great job ESPN.

nachos posted:

The funniest part is it's an insider article so nobody will read it anyway

Metapod posted:

is that a summary of what that article says?

quote:

Historic numbers

Westbrook has been on quite a spree lately.

In Chicago's 108-105 win over the Thunder, Westbrook fell two rebounds and three assists shy of double digits, but still poured in 43 points, including 19 in the third quarter. The Thunder were outscored by eight points when Westbrook was on the floor that night, while the Bulls' E'Twaun Moore, who was matched up against Westbrook much of the night, was plus-17. You don't want to draw any conclusions from one game of plus-minus, but that night, the figures did tell the story.

Since Durant last played on Feb. 19, Westbrook has averaged 35 points, 11 rebounds and 10.9 assists in 36 minutes per contest. His usage rate during that span has been 43.9 percent, per basketball-reference.com's game logs.

Russell Westbrook
Jonathan Daniel/Getty Images
Westbrook is putting up historic numbers, but it doesn't mean the Thunder can win a title.
For context, that figure exceeds Kobe Bryant's record-breaking 2005-06 usage rate by 5 percentage points.

He has also assisted on 56 percent of his teammates' field goals while on the floor during that span, a remarkable rate that is 10 percentage points higher than that of any other player. As it is, Westbrook leads the league for the season in both usage rate (38.4 percent) and assist rate (47.9). As fellow Insider Tom Haberstroh pointed out, Westbrook is dominating offensively in a way we've never quite seen before.

Westbrook's triple-double streak ended in Chicago, but he was literally all over the place on both ends of the floor. He went after just about every rebound, contested every shot on defense, charged down the court in transition and, of course, dominated the ball on virtually every offensive possession. Brooks rested him twice, and in both instances, as his time to re-enter the action approached, Westbrook stood on the sidelines eagerly, waiting for the dead ball that would spring him back into action. His energy ebbed only when it came time for interviews, when he'd hang his head and whisper his typical platitudes about just playing to win.

Westbrook has two streaks still alive entering Sunday night's showdown with the Toronto Raptors: He has scored at least 40 points in three straight games, and he has put up at least 30 shots in his last four outings. Since Durant went down, he has scored or assisted on over 47 percent of the Thunder's field goals -- and that includes the time he has spent on the bench, and the game he missed after getting his cheek dented against Portland.

What happens when Durant returns?

At some point, Durant will return, and his presence will have a naturally smoothing effect on Westbrook's game. With the game's best scorer beside him, Westbrook can't put his stamp on every possession, and the dynamic between the two stars has been polished over the past seven seasons.

However, given Westbrook's historic level of production of late, it's fair to wonder how far he could take Oklahoma City if Durant's foot problem ended up sidelining him for the season, which is still a possibility. Durant has said he expects to be back before the season is over, but there has no firm timetable established for that to happen. Meanwhile, the Thunder are trying to hold off a rapidly improving New Orleans Pelicans club that sits just a half-game back of Oklahoma City entering Sunday's action.

Thirty shot attempts should be the exception, not the rule. According to basketball-reference.com, since 1985-86, teams have won just 49.3 percent of games in which a player took at least 30 shots.
The Thunder have been so successful with their two-star system, that it only seems natural that with one guy out, the other would rev up the production, which would naturally result in the numbers Westbrook has been putting up. However, Oklahoma City has become as deep as it has ever been during the Westbrook-Durant era. And if you look closely at the recent results, the Thunder's improved second unit has had as much to do with their success as Westbrook's explosion.


The Thunder have gone 5-3 since Durant went back under the knife, but are just plus-6 with Westbrook on the floor during that time, per NBA.com/stats. That includes a plus-33 performance for Westbrook in a rout over Denver. The top plus-minus guys lately for the Thunder have been the reserves: Anthony Morrow, Dion Waiters, Nick Collison, D.J. Augustin and Mitch McGary. Starters Enes Kanter and Ibaka have likewise been strong in plus-minus, but more so when playing without Westbrook than with him. Westbrook had an epic game Wednesday, putting up 49 points, 16 rebounds and 10 assists. Yet the Thunder were outscored by 12 points with him on the floor and needed overtime to beat the woeful Sixers 123-118 in Oklahoma City.

The history of players who put so many fingerprints on their teams' possessions is mixed -- good teams, but no champions or finalists. The players themselves are all Hall of Fame level: Westbrook, LeBron James, Michael Jordan, Tiny Archibald and Oscar Robertson.


With the exception of Westbrook, all of those players own championship rings, but none of their titles (or Finals appearances) came when they were averaging at least 27 points and eight assists in the same season.

The bottom line is that historically speaking, individual production has a ceiling that manifests at the team level. This is why going forward, you'd like to see Westbrook dial it back a bit whether or not Durant gets back on the court. Thirty shot attempts should be the exception, not the rule. According to basketball-reference.com, since 1985-86, teams have won just 49.3 percent of games in which a player took at least 30 shots.

Five of Westbrook's 10 career games with that many attempts have come this season. The Thunder have lost four of those games, and have been minus-41 with Westbrook on the floor. This is not unusual. The Lakers are just 45-63 during Bryant's career when he takes 30 shots. Nitpicking about 30 shots might be arbitrary, but it's a figure that tends to be more a symptom than an achievement.


Chicago used Westbrook's own energy and overaggressive nature against him.
The last-second loss to Chicago symbolized why despite his best intentions and supreme competitiveness, Westbrook can sometimes be his own worst enemy. With the Thunder up by a point and the Bulls inbounding the ball in the final seconds, Westbrook chased Moore into the middle. Then Moore cut away from Pau Gasol, who was leaping to catch the inbound pass in the lane.

Westbrook charged at Gasol to double-team, and the smooth-passing center redirected the ball to the unguarded Moore in the corner. Westbrook turned and leaped at Moore, but too late. The ball swished through the net, putting the Bulls up two with 2.1 seconds remaining. It certainly appeared that Gasol had made up his mind to leverage Westbrook's aggressiveness against him.

Chicago took advantage of that same trait after the Thunder's subsequent timeout, putting two defenders on Westbrook. Westbrook raced to get the ball, but couldn't get his hands on it until his foot was on the sideline, a turnover that iced Chicago's win. It was only one play, and only one loss, but there was a cautionary tale for the Thunder in the sequence. Westbrook is proving that he can do anything on the basketball court, and it's been thrilling to watch. However, it might not be a good idea for him to do everything.

Tokyo Sex Whale posted:

Volume matters too. Still seems more exciting than "the last guy to do it is the best."

Phil Jackson proposed like 10 or more years ago to move the 3 point line out to create more space which is interesting because he's the most famous advocate of an offense that doesn't really generate 3-pointers and it's like he could tell how the future was going to go and tried to stop it.

chunkles posted:

Westbrook should continue playing like a coked up wolverine, now and when Durant returns

Ross posted:

Pistol Pete reportedly just jacked up shots from 40 feet and cashed them all game even though they were worth only 2 points, he gave no fucks.

2015 Max Contract Getter Draymond Green posted:

He got some camera time and he needs it because there wasn’t much celebration from their bench today so you didn’t see him much.

Ross posted:

Pistol Pete reportedly just jacked up shots from 40 feet and cashed them all game even though they were worth only 2 points, he gave no fucks.

Metapod posted:

i hope this is true/video evidence that will eventually be found

Metapod posted:

i hope this is true/video evidence that will eventually be found

Declan MacManus posted:

There's footage of Pistol Pete from when he was at LSU

Not entirely dissimilar to watching Gilbert Arenas

chunkles posted:

I know very little about pre 00s NBA but I've spent a fair amount of time watching Pistol Pete highlights on youtube and it's a good idea if you have 10-20 minutes to kill. Some seriously great showboating.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9qv0YS1wHoQ

BWV posted:

I remember reading a great story about him in sports illustrated back when physical magazines came to my home. It was a book excerpt I think. It basically made it seem like he was an all-world talent playing with dudes from the Y. He just did whatever he wanted and was so much better than the average player that no one gave a poo poo.

chunkles posted:

I know very little about pre 00s NBA but I've spent a fair amount of time watching Pistol Pete highlights on youtube and it's a good idea if you have 10-20 minutes to kill. Some seriously great showboating.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9qv0YS1wHoQ

morestuff posted:

chunkles posted:

I know very little about pre 00s NBA but I've spent a fair amount of time watching Pistol Pete highlights on youtube and it's a good idea if you have 10-20 minutes to kill. Some seriously great showboating.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9qv0YS1wHoQ

Kibner posted:

When he was healthy for LSU and the NOLA Jazz, this was completely true. I would need to look it up again, but someone charted all of his college shots and he would have averaged like 50 points a game had the 3pt line existed.

If you want to know how he does the wrist pass, take DeClan's advice and find that YouTube video of Pistol and Red. It looks like it would gently caress up your arm very quickly.

There are also some instructional dribbling videos with Pete that are fairly ridiculous.