Canada Housing/Debt: Trust me, I'm a landlord.

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ocrumsprug: Sep 23, 2010; by LITERALLY AN ADMIN

500k outside the big urban areas (or oil areas) is still a mansion.

# ? Mar 7, 2015 04:48

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# ? May 21, 2024 22:07

etalian: Mar 20, 2006

No government help for home ownership would be the best possible solution since it's the root of bubble problems.

# ? Mar 7, 2015 04:50

Grand Theft Autobot: Feb 28, 2008; I'm something of a fucking idiot myself

etalian posted:

No government help for home ownership would be the best possible solution since it's the root of bubble problems.

Not to mention the root of dozens of other problems.

# ? Mar 7, 2015 05:07

namaste friends: Sep 18, 2004; by Smythe

http://business.financialpost.com/2015/03/06/only-mass-default-will-end-the-worlds-addiction-to-debt/

quote:

Only mass default will end the world�s addiction to debt

In a valedictory speech at the weekend of characteristically Latin American duration � a mind-numbing three hours � the Argentine President, Cristina Fernandez de Kirchner, claimed that her country was the only one in the world to have reduced its national debt over recent years. I doubt she is right about being alone in this �achievement� � there must surely be others � but even if she is, I�m not sure that reduction in the national debt via the mechanism of default is anything to boast of. Only Kirchner could really think this a matter of national pride.

Nonetheless, where Argentina treads, others will surely soon be following. The world is sinking under a sea of debt, private as well as public, and it is increasingly hard to see how this might end, except in some form of mass default.

Greece we already know about, but the coming much wider outbreak of debt repudiation will not be confined to sovereign nations. Last week, there was another foretaste of what�s to come in the shape of Austria�s failed Hypo Alpe-Adria-Bank International. Taxpayers have had enough of paying for the country�s increasingly crisis ridden banking sector, and are bailing in private creditors to the remnants of this financial road crash instead � to the tune of US$8.5 billion in the specific case of Hypo Alpe-Adria. Finally, creditors are being made to pay for the consequences of their own folly.

You might have thought that a financial crisis as serious as that of the last seven years would have ended the world economy�s addiction to debt once and for all. It has not. If anything, the position has grown even worse since the collapse of Lehman Brothers.

According to recent analysis by McKinsey Global Institute, global debt has increased to the tune of US$57 trillion, or 17%, since 2007, with little sign of a slowdown in sight. Much of this growth has been in emerging markets, which were comparatively unaffected by the financial crisis. Yet even in the developed west, private sector deleveraging has been limited and in any case more than outweighed by growing public indebtedness. The combined public sector debt of the G7 economies has grown by 40% to around 120% of GDP since the crisis began. There has been no overall deleveraging to speak of.

Where the West left off, Asia has taken up the pace, with a credit induced real estate bubble that makes its pre-crisis western counterpart look tame by comparison, much of it fuelled, as in western economies, by growth in the shadow banking sector.

China�s total indebtedness has quadrupled since 2007 to US$28 trillion, according to estimates by McKinsey. At 282% of GDP, the debt burden is now bigger, relative to output, that the United States.
Attempts to rein in this growth have so far proved problematic. The Chinese property market has slowed markedly, which in turn has knocked the stuffing out of the all important construction sector its feeder industries. Starved of its regular fix of debt, the Chinese economy seems as incapable of generating decent levels of growth as the mature economies of the West. The addiction to credit has gone global.

Related
Greece running out of funding options despite eurozone reprieve
In any case, China now seems to have abandoned all attempts at tighter credit conditions. At the weekend, the People�s Bank of China again cut interest rates. It has also announced reduced reserve requirements in an attempt to further reinvigorate credit and prevent a hard landing. It may already be too late. The PBOC�s long- serving governor, Zhou Xiaochuan, will almost certainly soon be on his bike, in apparent punishment for the enforced policy reversal. Credit-fuelled growth, China�s high command has concluded, is better than no growth at all.

Some economists claim not to be too concerned by the explosion in global credit. For them, it is merely the mirror image of rising output, asset prices, and wealth. And up to a point, they are right. Economies engaged in across-the-board deleveraging find it extremely difficult to grow, as the depression-like conditions afflicting much of the Eurozone again remind us. Decent growth requires abundant credit.

But you can also have too much of a good thing. Today�s global economy is plainly a case of it. The world has taken on more debt than it is ever likely to be able to repay, absent of implausibly high levels of output growth or contractionary fiscal consolidation. This in turn makes the global economy highly vulnerable to continued financial crisis and balance sheet recession. Too much capacity and too much debt make a poisonous combination.

Credit cycles tend to be much longer than ordinary business cycles, something which may have something to do with the cautionary effect that financial crises have on banking practice. It can take as much as a generation for a bank entirely to forget the normal disciplines of prudential risk management, and go for broke. Unfortunately, they always do eventually, once all institutional memory of the last crisis has died off.

A paper by the Bank for International Settlement�s Claudio Borio a number of years back traced the origins of the US credit boom preceding the Lehman�s collapse to the early 1990s. Others might put it as far back as the 1980s. He was, however, talking only about the American credit cycle. Looked at from a global perspective, the real bust has yet to arrive.

Traditionally, governments have dealt with big debt overhangs through inflation and financial repression. In extremis debts are monetised via central bank money printing. It�s the legal, backdoor approach to default. Creditors get progressively squeezed by low interest rates and rising prices. Regrettably, it doesn�t work so well in a deflationary environment, and it doesn�t work at all when the credit is in a foreign currency, hence the apparently intractable debt standoff which afflicts the eurozone. Southern Europe has in effect been borrowing in a hard, northern European currency.

In the early 19th century, more than half of UK incarcerations were for unpaid debts. The debtors� prisons were filled to bursting. Then came the realisation that excessive debt was as much a problem for the creditor as the debtor, proper bankruptcy laws were introduced, and mechanisms for burden sharing put in place. Creditors found it harder to demand their pound of flesh.

Yet when the problem is as big, and international, as it is today, such solutions become virtually impossible, and unilateral default much more likely. How might the present explosion in debt end? The only thing that can be said with certainty is �badly�.

The Daily Telegraph

lol financial post can't summon the large intestine to poo poo out an article so it outsources from the telegraph

:toxx:

i'll toxx myself if the world undergoes mass global default. :toxx:

shut the gently caress up telegraph

# ? Mar 7, 2015 18:07

Saltin: Aug 20, 2003; Don't touch

etalian posted:

No government help for home ownership would be the best possible solution since it's the root of bubble problems.

Cheap credit is the real root. It's exacerbated by the CMHC assuming risk. The truth is that the CMHC has been around since the early 40's and actually did a lot of good in the country post-war, across the board, for all classes of people. Only recently, thanks for Flaherty and Harper, has the CMHC become the thing it is today. There was/is a very deliberate strategy at play with regard to housing in Canada and the run on effect it has had on our economy on the positive (employment, wealth creation, etc). They pushed it way too loving far, and, here we are.

# ? Mar 7, 2015 18:46

Bilirubin: Feb 16, 2014; The sanctioned action is to CHUG

re: construction out of wood from a few pages ago: hey pc9a look south. The microjuice bar going into the old weird church site near the Elbow Casino is pretty well in flames right now.

A 4 story wooden structure I had just driven by and thought of this discussion. Weird to see it completely on fire now.

e.

Bilirubin fucked around with this message at 20:45 on Mar 7, 2015

# ? Mar 7, 2015 20:30

namaste friends: Sep 18, 2004; by Smythe

Hahah

# ? Mar 7, 2015 21:19

PT6A: Jan 5, 2006; Public school teachers are callous dictators who won't lift a finger to stop children from peeing in my plane

Bilirubin posted:

re: construction out of wood from a few pages ago: hey pc9a look south. The microjuice bar going into the old weird church site near the Elbow Casino is pretty well in flames right now.

A 4 story wooden structure I had just driven by and thought of this discussion. Weird to see it completely on fire now.

e.

Haha, I saw that on Twitter and wondered, based on the earlier discussion, if the building was made of wood.

Yeah, this is totally a building technique we should be going hog wild with... What could go wrong???

# ? Mar 7, 2015 21:21

etalian: Mar 20, 2006

Most of it is due to how wood stick built type housing is much cheaper than cast concrete and other more expensive type buildings.

Also you need to build fast fast to make sure buyer can pay-up on their pre-sale condo.

# ? Mar 7, 2015 22:45

PT6A: Jan 5, 2006; Public school teachers are callous dictators who won't lift a finger to stop children from peeing in my plane

etalian posted:

Most of it is due to how wood stick built type housing is much cheaper than cast concrete and other more expensive type buildings.

Also you need to build fast fast to make sure buyer can pay-up on their pre-sale condo.

I get why developers like it, I just don't know why building codes allow it or why in god's name people would want to live in a wood-frame building instead of a proper concrete building.

# ? Mar 8, 2015 00:36

EoRaptor: Sep 13, 2003; by Fluffdaddy

Bilirubin posted:

re: construction out of wood from a few pages ago: hey pc9a look south. The microjuice bar going into the old weird church site near the Elbow Casino is pretty well in flames right now.

A 4 story wooden structure I had just driven by and thought of this discussion. Weird to see it completely on fire now.

e.

I wonder if this isn't more of a feature and less of a bug. Easy to get going and difficult to stop, it probably also reduces evidence, making insurance fraud much easier.

# ? Mar 8, 2015 05:27

Sassafras: Dec 24, 2004; by Athanatos

Sassafras fucked around with this message at 09:11 on Mar 14, 2015

# ? Mar 8, 2015 05:51

David Corbett: Feb 6, 2008; Courage, my friends; 'tis not too late to build a better world.

But just wait! Soon, there will be six story high wood buildings in Calgary.

# ? Mar 8, 2015 08:08

Baronjutter: Dec 31, 2007; "Tiny Trains"

Housing prices keep going up, we need to reduce construction standards. It's all that red tape and green exit signs driving the price up. Why don't you people care about affordability?

# ? Mar 8, 2015 08:26

GoonGPT: May 26, 2006; Posting for a better future, today!

It's a badly kept secret that trades will start fires in half finished houses if the owners refuse to pay them. With how slimy most condo developers are, that picture isn't surprising.

Source: I spent the last decade in the industry and finally got out last fall.

# ? Mar 8, 2015 15:18

etalian: Mar 20, 2006

nature6pk posted:

It's a badly kept secret that trades will start fires in half finished houses if the owners refuse to pay them. With how slimy most condo developers are, that picture isn't surprising.

Source: I spent the last decade in the industry and finally got out last fall.

Another other funny stories you could tell us about the industry?

# ? Mar 8, 2015 18:21

Reince Penis: Nov 15, 2007; by R. Guyovich

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/report-on-business/top-business-stories/why-so-much-money-is-shorting-the-canadian-dollar/article23354221/

quote:

Loonie short positions rise
Speculative bets against the Canadian dollar are rising almost by the week, reaching their highest levels in just about a year.

Short positions for the loonie rose again last week, according to the U.S. Commodity Futures Trading Commission, to top the $3-billion mark.

�Shorts have piled on during eight of the last 10 weeks, although the CAD is still much less short than AUD and NZD,� said Kevin Hebner, chief foreign exchange strategist at JPMorgan Chase & Co., referring to the currencies of Canada, Australia and New Zealand by their symbols.

The latest CFTC report was released Friday, and lists the short positions as of last Tuesday.

itshappening.gif

# ? Mar 9, 2015 16:19

Martian Manfucker: Dec 27, 2012; misandry is real

nature6pk posted:

It's a badly kept secret that trades will start fires in half finished houses if the owners refuse to pay them. With how slimy most condo developers are, that picture isn't surprising.

Source: I spent the last decade in the industry and finally got out last fall.

Usually I just put a lien on the property if they're not paying me. It never occurred to me that I could just burn it down!

# ? Mar 9, 2015 17:19

Baronjutter: Dec 31, 2007; "Tiny Trains"

We've put lien's on developers, sometimes they actually eventually sell their stupid condos and pay us. If we burned them down I'm not sure we'd get anything.

# ? Mar 9, 2015 17:22

PT6A: Jan 5, 2006; Public school teachers are callous dictators who won't lift a finger to stop children from peeing in my plane

Hey, remember that discussion a little while back about Alpha House and how people were attacking me for saying it was lovely and bad for the neighbourhood? Well, as it turns out, it's also bad for its clients. There was a fire there recently that killed someone, likely due to the same chronic understaffing and lack of fucks given that results in the many negative effects to the surrounding community. It turns out, too, that I'm not the only person who's had problems with them being nearby. For your consideration: http://www.reddit.com/r/Calgary/comments/2yeyr0/can_someone_explain_the_purpose_of_alpha_house_to/

Apologies are forthcoming from those who attacked me, I hope.

# ? Mar 9, 2015 17:38

peter banana: Sep 2, 2008; Feminism is a socialist, anti-family, political movement that encourages women to leave their husbands, kill their children, practice witchcraft, destroy capitalism and become lesbians.

PT6A posted:

Hey, remember that discussion a little while back about Alpha House and how people were attacking me for saying it was lovely and bad for the neighbourhood? Well, as it turns out, it's also bad for its clients. There was a fire there recently that killed someone, likely due to the same chronic understaffing and lack of fucks given that results in the many negative effects to the surrounding community. It turns out, too, that I'm not the only person who's had problems with them being nearby. For your consideration: http://www.reddit.com/r/Calgary/comments/2yeyr0/can_someone_explain_the_purpose_of_alpha_house_to/

Apologies are forthcoming from those who attacked me, I hope.

Just because Calgary underfunds and understaffs its treatment centers does not excuse you thinking the people being treated are subhuman or that we should "respect the fact that you don't want to interact with them." At all. The reason the city underfunds and understaffs those centres is because people think about those being treated the way you do. And the fact that the Calgary subreddit agrees with you is actually just more damning.

So no, I don't apologize.

peter banana fucked around with this message at 18:04 on Mar 9, 2015

# ? Mar 9, 2015 17:54

Lain Iwakura: Aug 5, 2004; The body exists only to verify one's own existence.; Taco Defender

PT6A posted:

Hey, remember that discussion a little while back about Alpha House and how people were attacking me for saying it was lovely and bad for the neighbourhood? Well, as it turns out, it's also bad for its clients. There was a fire there recently that killed someone, likely due to the same chronic understaffing and lack of fucks given that results in the many negative effects to the surrounding community. It turns out, too, that I'm not the only person who's had problems with them being nearby. For your consideration: http://www.reddit.com/r/Calgary/comments/2yeyr0/can_someone_explain_the_purpose_of_alpha_house_to/

Apologies are forthcoming from those who attacked me, I hope.

So you acknowledge that the problem came from underfunding but still point out that it was a failure because of itself? Yeah. Nobody cares about your opinion still.

# ? Mar 9, 2015 18:01

PT6A: Jan 5, 2006; Public school teachers are callous dictators who won't lift a finger to stop children from peeing in my plane

They're actively asking people not to call the cops when they witness people committing crimes. That ain't a staffing issue.

# ? Mar 9, 2015 18:13

sbaldrick: Jul 19, 2006; Driven by Hate

The other fun things is those all wood buildings that can be 6 stories tall in Ontario, they have to have an elevator. Which means given the current cheap building environment, means there is a good chance they will be on the outside of the building and gap as the building expands due to the weather (of course they will start them all in January, why wouldn't you).

# ? Mar 9, 2015 18:16

triplexpac: Mar 24, 2007; Suck it
Two tears in a bucket
And then another thing
I'm not the one they'll try their luck with
Hit hard like brass knuckles
See your face through the turnbuckle dude
I got no love for you

sbaldrick posted:

The other fun things is those all wood buildings that can be 6 stories tall in Ontario, they have to have an elevator. Which means given the current cheap building environment, means there is a good chance they will be on the outside of the building and gap as the building expands due to the weather (of course they will start them all in January, why wouldn't you).

This made me picture a wooden elevator like in the Flintstones or something.

# ? Mar 9, 2015 18:45

sbaldrick: Jul 19, 2006; Driven by Hate

That would be fun, but sadly its more then likely going to look like a smokestack.

# ? Mar 9, 2015 18:55

Franks Happy Place: Mar 15, 2011; It is by weed alone I set my mind in motion. It is by the dank of Sapho that thoughts acquire speed, the lips acquire stains, stains become a warning. It is by weed alone I set my mind in motion.

Guys in the siding or plumbing trades usually go to the site at night and strip everything they installed if they don't get paid. It's like a lien, except immediate and personally gratifying. :haw:

Also, I have it on good authority that there's like a 50/50 shot on any given project that the general contractor will attempt to avoid payment via bankruptcy and numbered companies, so this is a pretty everyday kind of thing.

# ? Mar 9, 2015 19:10

HookShot: Dec 26, 2005

Yeah, in Australia my FIL used to run a cabinetry business, and that was basically how they operated. If their project fails they declare bankruptcy and drive their BMW around the corner to the office of their brand new company and just go "welp no one's getting paid too bad so sad"

# ? Mar 9, 2015 19:35

Bilirubin: Feb 16, 2014; The sanctioned action is to CHUG

sbaldrick posted:

The other fun things is those all wood buildings that can be 6 stories tall in Ontario, they have to have an elevator. Which means given the current cheap building environment, means there is a good chance they will be on the outside of the building and gap as the building expands due to the weather (of course they will start them all in January, why wouldn't you).

It was still smoldering yesterday when I passed the site

# ? Mar 9, 2015 19:38

Professor Shark: May 22, 2012

PT6A posted:

Hey, remember that discussion a little while back about Alpha House and how people were attacking me for saying it was lovely and bad for the neighbourhood? Well, as it turns out, it's also bad for its clients. There was a fire there recently that killed someone, likely due to the same chronic understaffing and lack of fucks given that results in the many negative effects to the surrounding community. It turns out, too, that I'm not the only person who's had problems with them being nearby. For your consideration: http://www.reddit.com/r/Calgary/comments/2yeyr0/can_someone_explain_the_purpose_of_alpha_house_to/

Apologies are forthcoming from those who attacked me, I hope.

What is wrong with you?

# ? Mar 9, 2015 19:38

apatheticman: May 13, 2003; Wedge Regret

Professor Shark posted:

What is wrong with you?

Typical neoconservative diagnosis of lacking a soul

# ? Mar 9, 2015 19:47

PT6A: Jan 5, 2006; Public school teachers are callous dictators who won't lift a finger to stop children from peeing in my plane

Professor Shark posted:

What is wrong with you?

Nothing. Apparently I just have no particular love of crime, harassment, drug use, and the scattering of biohazards near places where I live, unlike many folks in this thread. If you want to live in a neighbourhood filled with poo poo, piss, puke, needles, junkies, empty Listerine bottles, and all other manners of detritus, go hog wild, but recognize that not all of us do.

This is literally a facility that attracts people who are too hosed up for normal shelters, or who've been barred for criminal behaviour. If it must be located somewhere, and I suppose it must, then the staff must ensure that they are responsible community members and do something about the negative externalities of the facility. What they shouldn't do is ask surrounding businesses and residents to please not call the cops when they're being harassed by some loving junkie or pisstank!

PT6A fucked around with this message at 19:52 on Mar 9, 2015

# ? Mar 9, 2015 19:50

Heavy neutrino: Sep 16, 2007; You made a fine post for yourself. ...For a casualry, I suppose.

Neoconservative is a foreign policy thing. PT6A and his fellow Calgarians are from a class of people as old as human society: those who want all the positive products of society to flow towards them while all the negative products flow away from them.

There are societal actions that can reduce drug addiction rates, improve rehab success rates, and so on. Albertans don't want to undertake them because it would require a hit to their incomes and standard of living, but neither do they want to live with the negative consequences of that self-centered choice. It's grotesque from my point of view.

# ? Mar 9, 2015 19:54

PT6A: Jan 5, 2006; Public school teachers are callous dictators who won't lift a finger to stop children from peeing in my plane

Heavy neutrino posted:

Neoconservative is a foreign policy thing. PT6A and his fellow Calgarians are from a class of people as old as human society: those who want all the positive products of society to flow towards them while all the negative products flow away from them.

There are societal actions that can reduce drug addiction rates, improve rehab success rates, and so on. Albertans don't want to undertake them because it would require a hit to their incomes and standard of living, but neither do they want to live with the negative consequences of that self-centered choice. It's grotesque from my point of view.

No, I want Alpha House to go away, and redirect all the funding they're getting to the Drop-In Centre and the Mustard Seed, both of which have a much better record of actually helping people while not being an unmentionable loving blight to the community. Put the money into mental healthcare. Put the money anywhere but in a facility whose sole purpose is to take in people who are too hosed up out of their mind that even normal homeless shelters don't want them.

This is not some grand crusade I'm on against shelters and addiction treatment facilities -- these are necessary. This is about a specific one, out of several in the city, that is heinously run, and is having a negative effect on the community around it. Trying to paint opposition to one facility that's run like poo poo as some kind of broader NIMBY, anti-homeless thing is ridiculous.

PT6A fucked around with this message at 19:59 on Mar 9, 2015

# ? Mar 9, 2015 19:57

Heavy neutrino: Sep 16, 2007; You made a fine post for yourself. ...For a casualry, I suppose.

PT6A posted:

No, I want Alpha House to go away, and redirect all the funding they're getting to the Drop-In Centre and the Mustard Seed, both of which have a much better record of actually helping people while not being an unmentionable loving blight to the community. Put the money into mental healthcare. Put the money anywhere but in a facility whose sole purpose is to take in people who are too hosed up out of their mind that even normal homeless shelters don't want them.

Yeah I shouldn't have targeted you because I know that you're in favor of policies that would greatly improve the outcomes of some of society's most disadvantaged, but it annoys me to no end when I talk to people who just want more poo poo for themselves, at the expense of others, and then turn around to complain about the negative by-products of their choices.

# ? Mar 9, 2015 20:00

Brannock: Feb 9, 2006; by exmarx; Fallen Rib

PT6A posted:

Trying to paint opposition to one facility that's run like poo poo as some kind of broader NIMBY, anti-homeless thing is ridiculous.

No, you see, there's no room for nuance here. You're either a grand crusader for the Light or a cackling hyperconservative.

# ? Mar 9, 2015 20:37

flashman: Dec 16, 2003

Wow no need to dogpile it isn't as if it was a childrens hospital or something this was just a place for low life scum.

# ? Mar 9, 2015 20:43

PT6A: Jan 5, 2006; Public school teachers are callous dictators who won't lift a finger to stop children from peeing in my plane

flashman posted:

Wow no need to dogpile it isn't as if it was a childrens hospital or something this was just a place for low life scum.

People keep bringing that up, despite the fact I never said I oppose having hospitals near me, I don't have a problem with the Children's Hospital, and I actually donated to the Children's Hospital. Again, my point was purely, only ever about externalities. And, yes, that applies even to things that are as unambiguously good and necessary as hospitals and schools. The initial discussion was about planning, and there is no reason we should ignore proper planning procedures just to save a bit of time. It's not good for the facility, it's not good for the community.

A lot of people around here seem to have a fundamental problem with having it pointed out that even good things can have negative effects. It's not meant to be an attack on those things, it's just a reality.

# ? Mar 9, 2015 20:48

Furnaceface: Oct 21, 2004

PT6A posted:

People keep bringing that up, despite the fact I never said I oppose having hospitals near me, I don't have a problem with the Children's Hospital, and I actually donated to the Children's Hospital. Again, my point was purely, only ever about externalities. And, yes, that applies even to things that are as unambiguously good and necessary as hospitals and schools. The initial discussion was about planning, and there is no reason we should ignore proper planning procedures just to save a bit of time. It's not good for the facility, it's not good for the community.

A lot of people around here seem to have a fundamental problem with having it pointed out that even good things can have negative effects. It's not meant to be an attack on those things, it's just a reality.

Its because your attacks always come at a personal level or are too generalized to be applied to the stuff you lash out against. You didnt argue that one specific place was bad, you lumped everyone that could and would use it as a blight on society without ever mentioning other places for these people to go or how to fix the issue with the place other than "prevent it from ever being built".

Youre usually a fairly reasonable person but sometimes you just dont think about the vile you toss then get offended when it comes back on you.

# ? Mar 9, 2015 21:03

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# ? May 21, 2024 22:07

Rime: Nov 2, 2011; by Games Forum

PT6A posted:

A lot of people around here seem to have a fundamental problem with having it pointed out that even good things can have negative effects. It's not meant to be an attack on those things, it's just a reality.

A lot of people, and not solely around here, lack comprehension of "nuance". It manifests on both sides in any topic which is uncomfortable enough to cause a polarizing backlash.

You are correct in your assertions regarding what is clearly a terribly run shelter. Other people are correct in asserting it would be better run if Alberta put more money into rehabilitation programs. A reasonable person wouldn't have a problem agreeing with both. Unfortunately, very few people are able to juggle two conflicting opinions like that and choose to just take the easy road out: throw poo poo at the posters who aren't in line with what is currently socially acceptable, or who they simply don't agree with.

Our discourse is being increasingly eroded by highly dogmatic partisanship.

:science:

Rime fucked around with this message at 21:16 on Mar 9, 2015

# ? Mar 9, 2015 21:07

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Debate & Discussion > Canada Housing/Debt: Trust me, I'm a landlord.

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