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This is just like that rape case where the lives of several promising young men will be ruined by the pc brigade, isn't it?
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Mar 10, 2015 06:41
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I really doubt they will expell anyone, for one kicking them all off campus is already a highly visible punishment, secondly it opens them to a free speech lawsuit. SAE won't be contesting kicking them off campus (their dissolving the chapter for the same reason) but FIRE or someone else will back a lawsuit of "I got expelled because someone posted video of something said in private company" and it will be a pretty slam dunk case as well. I'm curious who recorded and posted the video (before Unheard got it) and did they do it because they were appalled by it, or because they thought it was funny
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Mar 10, 2015 06:43
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Again, so far no one has been expelled to my knowledge. I'm in Oklahoma and have had a lot of friends screaming about it all day long. The university said they have to be gone by Tuesday, today, and that they aren't going to offer any of the members housing services to help them find another place to live on such short notice. And again the president of OU said he was looking into expulsions by reviewing the videos. I'm not certain who posted the videos though, and there are two different shots of the same event. One even has a SAE guy telling the person recording to stop recording. It could be that some new member decided 'actually gently caress these guys,' it could be that someone was really dumb and thought it was funny so it got posted online, and one local blog speculates that the event happened during a date party and one of the sorority member on board the bus is behind leaking the video. I really do favor that last theory, nothing gets pussies wet like flagrant proud racism. From a house that employs a black chef and cleaning crew. FunkyFjord fucked around with this message at 06:50 on Mar 10, 2015 |
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Mar 10, 2015 06:48
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Fried Chicken posted:I really doubt they will expell anyone, for one kicking them all off campus is already a highly visible punishment, secondly it opens them to a free speech lawsuit. SAE won't be contesting kicking them off campus (their dissolving the chapter for the same reason) but FIRE or someone else will back a lawsuit of "I got expelled because someone posted video of something said in private company" and it will be a pretty slam dunk case as well. Reading between the lines, I get the feeling this was a guest or date of someone on the bus who was like "holy poo poo, this is despicable" and tried to record it as clandestinely as possible to give to Unheard. At least that's the only possible rationale I can come up with for such a horribly framed portrait-oriented video  They can try to fight this, but here will be the university's argument: "This was a chapter activity, we subsidize your activities through student gov't funds, we decide what is acceptable behavior. Also, your own national organization pulled your charter over this. You are non-entities now with no protection from a larger organization. We strongly suggest you withdraw right now and find someplace else to continue your education." A few of them may pitch a fit over it, but the school will throw them under the racist-singing bus because the school clearly wants this to be over NOW. After all, this has already cost them a football recruit, and that's serious business.
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Mar 10, 2015 07:10
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I wonder if any of them will stick to their convictions and say "What we sang is true; we won't admit blacks because it's one of our traditions and without traditions, why does the Greek system even exist?"
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Mar 10, 2015 07:13
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Samurai Sanders posted:I wonder if any of them will stick to their convictions and say "What we sang is true; we won't admit blacks because it's one of our traditions and without traditions, why does the Greek system even exist?" no, because they're cowards who know their thoughts are unpopular and ugly, which is why they only air them in private
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Mar 10, 2015 07:23
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Samurai Sanders posted:I wonder if any of them will stick to their convictions and say "What we sang is true; we won't admit blacks because it's one of our traditions and without traditions, why does the Greek system even exist?" They won't be admitting anyone because their chapter was closed down, they no longer have national sanction.
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Mar 10, 2015 07:28
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"I think it's somewhat ironic to see some members of Congress wanting to make common cause with the hardliners in Iran. It's an unusual coalition." ~President Barack Obama
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Mar 10, 2015 07:29
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skaboomizzy posted:After all, this has already cost them a football recruit, and that's serious business. And now some words from the comments section: quote:When this young man boycotts rap music because of it's racist chanting he will be off the hypocrit list. quote:Shame. Their mathematics department is certainly going to take a hit. quote:Blacks and Whites are racist. To report Black racism doesn't fit a cause or narrative. Obama has stirred it up and is creating some of this, we were on a course of getting along until this race baiting idiot got in office. I didn't see the video and based on what they report, the people involved are lost and confused people who should be expelled and sent packing. The entire school is not racist nor is that Frat, its an individual thing so treated it that way. It is sad the hate obama and his cronies have stirred up. What about the Nation of Islam idiot who called Guliani a cracker? BLACK Racist and he is not alone! quote:You guys may think this kid is "brave" with "guts" to tell them to f-off. In my opinion he's an idiot.........SAE Frat House has absolutely nothing to do with athletic programs. Maybe this is just a convenient way of going back on his word, playing the race card.........blacks are notorious for crawfishing....... quote:but he had no problem with the black kids killing the white college student that obama didn't think was racism? Sounds like he's a racist. Which means the college prez would miss another meal and night of sleep. Easily half of the comments are like this. 
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Mar 10, 2015 07:48
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UV_Catastrophe posted:And now some words from the comments section: Ardlen posted:"I think it's somewhat ironic to see some members of Congress wanting to make common cause with the hardliners in Iran. It's an unusual coalition." ~President Barack Obama Samurai Sanders fucked around with this message at 08:09 on Mar 10, 2015 |
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Mar 10, 2015 08:03
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Samurai Sanders posted:I wonder if any of them will stick to their convictions and say "What we sang is true; we won't admit blacks because it's one of our traditions and without traditions, why does the Greek system even exist?" And if the whole fraternity system is guilty, then isn't this an indictment of our educational institutions in general?
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Mar 10, 2015 08:06
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Bob Ojeda posted:And if the whole fraternity system is guilty, then isn't this an indictment of our educational institutions in general?
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Mar 10, 2015 08:14
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Samurai Sanders posted:If OU's president really wants to stop racism on his campus, this is just a drop in the bucket. I hope he realizes the enormity of his task if he really wants to do it. He was in the US Senate from 1980-94 and went against the Reagan administration to call out apartheid and secure the release of Mandela, so he can probably handle some racist frat bros.
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Mar 10, 2015 12:20
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Amused to Death posted:Sorry about your state and the death of unions, Wisconsin A coworker posted on her facebook that she never saw right to work coming I'd weep but after 4 years and change of this I've lost the capacity
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Mar 10, 2015 12:50
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Fried Chicken posted:I really doubt they will expell anyone, for one kicking them all off campus is already a highly visible punishment, secondly it opens them to a free speech lawsuit. Would hate speech be covered for students though? I know people like Westboro can operate with impunity because they are their own organization and this is their shtick, but these kids were part of a larger institution that usually has things like alma maters, code of conduct, etc. that would probably open the possibility for disassociation.
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Mar 10, 2015 13:34
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Gravel Gravy posted:Would hate speech be covered for students though? I know people like Westboro can operate with impunity because they are their own organization and this is their shtick, but these kids were part of a larger institution that usually has things like alma maters, code of conduct, etc. that would probably open the possibility for disassociation. I'd imagine that if they went the full expulsion route it'd be under the students breaking whatever code of conduct rules students are required to adhere to or something about creating a hostile environment for other students. While there might be threats of lawsuits I don't think they'll get very far. Though I also doubt they'll be expelled in the first place.
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Mar 10, 2015 13:44
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"You can hang them from a tree" is protected speech because it's a non-specific threat, right? Even then, the school may have a policy against threatening speech, full stop.
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Mar 10, 2015 13:46
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AreWeDrunkYet posted:"You can hang them from a tree" is protected speech because it's a non-specific threat, right? Even then, the school may have a policy against threatening speech, full stop. Welllllll, only one type of person has been consistently hung from trees in American history, so it rolls back to the racism bit again. It's still nonspecific against all blacks but that's probably specific enough for an expulsion hearing.
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Mar 10, 2015 13:55
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Garrand posted:I'd imagine that if they went the full expulsion route it'd be under the students breaking whatever code of conduct rules students are required to adhere to or something about creating a hostile environment for other students. While there might be threats of lawsuits I don't think they'll get very far. Though I also doubt they'll be expelled in the first place. With how fast this thing blew up I'd be surprised if it wasn't pursued. Regardless withdrawal is the best alternative for these kids. If there are any black frats on campus they are bound to give these kids hell because all frats can do dumb things and most likely they'll be treated as pariahs by the rest of their peers so what's the point?
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Mar 10, 2015 14:02
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Because OU is a public institution the first amendment does apply. That said, I doubt you can get very far with a first amendment argument here and the only hope any of the people involved have for their life not to be completely ruined is bury their involvement in this as much as possible: you have nothing to gain by a lawsuit here even with a chance of winning. The first amendment doesn't protect you against individuals deciding they'll have nothing to do with you because of your speech. The school clearly plans additional disciplinary action against the students on the bus, as they are complaining the frat is not being forthcoming about who was there (and a sorority is supposedly cooperating). The guy whose face is visible though is basically done in civilized society once his name leaks onto the internet, it'll be the first google hit for years.
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Mar 10, 2015 14:07
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evilweasel posted:The guy whose face is visible though is basically done in civilized society once his name leaks onto the internet, it'll be the first google hit for years. He might be able to do a book tour and become a Fox News panelist, depending on how he spins his "loss of first Amendment rights".
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Mar 10, 2015 14:11
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evilweasel posted:Yeah I too remember how North Korea got nukes as soon as the Korean War ended. Sure, it's complicated, just like NK being somewhat under the protection of the USSR and at other items China was a factor. But in this case I believe perception makes reality. North Korea certainly believes its nuclear weapons act as a deterrent and makes it a Regional Player. After recent events in Iraq and Ukraine, and given our insistence that we would stop Iran from acquiring nuclear weapons at any cost (because if they had them we couldn't kick them around like we do), I think it'd be quite reasonable for this or that dictatorship to assume that the only way to deter US or Russian aggression is to acquire nuclear weapons.
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Mar 10, 2015 14:13
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Talmonis posted:He might be able to do a book tour and become a Fox News panelist, depending on how he spins his "loss of first Amendment rights". Doubtful, even when Bundy let his racism slip the right was pretty quick to back away. When it is thinly veiled you could maybe get away with that. In this extremely overt case people would worry that they'd be guilty by association. PhilippAchtel posted:Sure, it's complicated, just like NK being somewhat under the protection of the USSR and at other items China was a factor. You could make the argument that Iran has some dictatorial qualities but it's pretty dangerous to compare it to the North Korean case.
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Mar 10, 2015 14:13
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Talmonis posted:He might be able to do a book tour and become a Fox News panelist, depending on how he spins his "loss of first Amendment rights". I doubt it. Fox is big on "racism doesn't exist anymore" and how anything short of actual lynching isn't really racism and is just people playing the race card. A guy who literally sang about hanging niggers from a tree is so far past the line about what you can try to spin as "not racist" that the only real option is "thing we were discussing isn't real racism, that OU guy, THAT is racism and we will prove our bona fides by hating this OU guy while we continue to insinuate Obama is an america-hating muslim". Like people's conservative mostly-racist grandpa who talks about "those people" and that blacks are just lazy will see this and call those guys racists.
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Mar 10, 2015 14:15
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Gravel Gravy posted:You could make the argument that Iran has some dictatorial qualities but it's pretty dangerous to compare it to the North Korean case. True. Let's replace "dictatorship" with "defiantly not in line with US hegemony" or in other cases Russian regional supremacy.
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Mar 10, 2015 14:19
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evilweasel posted:Because OU is a public institution the first amendment does apply. So this would supersede the student code if they contradict each other? "Hang them from a tree" is pretty plainly first amendment protected speech until you attach a name to it, but it definitely seems to run afoul of the OU student code. http://www.ou.edu/content/dam/studentlife/documents/AllCampusStudentCode.pdf quote:Prohibited Conduct
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Mar 10, 2015 14:22
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AreWeDrunkYet posted:So this would supersede the student code if they contradict each other? "Hang them from a tree" is pretty plainly first amendment protected speech until you attach a name to it, but it definitely seems to run afoul of the OU student code. The first amendment does apply yes, and to the extent the student code doesn't comply with the first amendment it can't be enforced. But I don't remember what the limitations on the first amendment are when you're applying it to a school: the open threat of violence might not pass constitutional muster to criminalize, but expulsion isn't a criminal sanction and so the first amendment might allow the school more discretion - I think the government would have no issues firing someone for this speech so I doubt a student can get away with it either. Basically I don't know they'd win if they sued, but I do know that the best case scenario if they sue is probably a whole lot worse than if they try to quietly disappear.
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Mar 10, 2015 14:26
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Ardlen posted:"I think it's somewhat ironic to see some members of Congress wanting to make common cause with the hardliners in Iran. It's an unusual coalition." ~President Barack Obama I don't think ironic heh's are an appropriate response for a party's unprecedented attempt to sabotage American foreign policy. Obama should be going loving berserk on Congress right now, he should be furious and calling them out on their "lawlessness" and violation of if not the letter but the spirit of the Constitution. That letter, combined with the Bibi poo poo, is just beyond the pale and transcends simple politics.
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Mar 10, 2015 14:27
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zoux posted:I don't think ironic heh's are an appropriate response for a party's unprecedented attempt to sabotage American foreign policy. Obama should be going loving berserk on Congress right now, he should be furious and calling them out on their "lawlessness" and violation of if not the letter but the spirit of the Constitution. That letter, combined with the Bibi poo poo, is just beyond the pale and transcends simple politics. It's better if it comes from third parties.  (New York Daily News)
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Mar 10, 2015 14:28
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Fried Chicken posted:Gawker just sucks. They certainly have lower ethical standards than normal humans, but I will argue that Gawker does important work reporting on topics such as race relations and inside baseball in the media and tech industries. Their motives are base but I still trust them more than the NYT or WaPo, Buzzfeed or Vox, or Politico.
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Mar 10, 2015 14:34
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evilweasel posted:It's better if it comes from third parties. My personal thing, and this may just be some base emotional desire to not lay back and take it, is that Obama has never been confrontational enough with congressional Republicans and that's one of his biggest failures. But yeah I'd like to see Obama straight up accuse Tom Cotton of treason, put them on the defensive for once.
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Mar 10, 2015 14:42
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evilweasel posted:I doubt it. Fox is big on "racism doesn't exist anymore" and how anything short of actual lynching isn't really racism and is just people playing the race card. A guy who literally sang about hanging niggers from a tree is so far past the line about what you can try to spin as "not racist" that the only real option is "thing we were discussing isn't real racism, that OU guy, THAT is racism and we will prove our bona fides by hating this OU guy while we continue to insinuate Obama is an america-hating muslim". Like people's conservative mostly-racist grandpa who talks about "those people" and that blacks are just lazy will see this and call those guys racists. Actually if it were a video of him shooting a black guy asking to be in the fraternity he'd be better off. You are allowed to be as racist as you want and take any action against a black person as long as you don't say the n word. That's the current right wing racism rules.
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Mar 10, 2015 14:43
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greatn posted:Actually if it were a video of him shooting a black guy asking to be in the fraternity he'd be better off. You are allowed to be as racist as you want and take any action against a black person as long as you don't say the n word. That's the current right wing racism rules. What's funny is that the fact that the "n word is verboten" being pretty much the only Right Wing not-a-racist rule REALLY frustrates a lot of them and even that is asking too much.
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Mar 10, 2015 14:44
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zoux posted:But yeah I'd like to see Obama straight up accuse Tom Cotton of treason, put them on the defensive for once. It couldn't come directly from Obama. Far too much chance of backfiring.
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Mar 10, 2015 14:45
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ReidRansom posted:It couldn't come directly from Obama. Far too much chance of backfiring. How is that?
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Mar 10, 2015 14:46
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ReidRansom posted:It couldn't come directly from Obama. Far too much chance of backfiring. "Here comes Tyrant King Obama accusing we loyal legislators of treason by going against his will!"
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Mar 10, 2015 14:47
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zoux posted:How is that? Accusing a US army vet of treason wouldn't work well for Obama.
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Mar 10, 2015 14:53
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Obama: King or Messiah?
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Mar 10, 2015 14:54
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zoux posted:How is that? Because Gravel Gravy posted:"Here comes Tyrant King Obama accusing we loyal legislators of treason by going against his will!" I agree that he should be more aggressive with them generally, but in regard to this specific circumstance, it's best he play the adult in the room and remain distant from any accusations of treason or sedition or whatnot and just keep working on the deal.
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Mar 10, 2015 14:55
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Gravel Gravy posted:"Here comes Tyrant King Obama accusing we loyal legislators of treason by going against his will!" Oh so you mean they would continue to repeat the same rhetoric of the last seven years. There is nothing they could say that they haven't already said. Obama's always tried to play the above-the-fray statesman but he's utterly failed to outmessage the Republicans at every turn.
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Mar 10, 2015 15:01
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