EVE Online: The Spaceship Game That Didn't Steal Your Kickstarter Money

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Video Games > The MMO HMO > EVE Online: The Spaceship Game That Didn't Steal Your Kickstarter Money

«‹›1329 »

pugnax: Oct 10, 2012; Specialization is for insects.

DARPA posted:

FYI pugnax doesn't understand the personal suffering players will experience defending against fleets of interceptors, while gevlon perfectly gets it. Up is down, gevlon is human, pugnax is trolling (I hope?)

I'm always at a low level of trolling in this thread, but that's mostly because a subset of posters here have the magnificent attribute combination of being both hyperbolic and easily ruffled. And there's another subset of wise minds who can really unpack concepts and contribute to interesting debate.

I don't think anyone has ever fielded (or theorycrafted) a full fleet of interceptors. PL did some fun stuff with the windrunners, but we never had more than 50 dudes. Trying to simultaneously reinforce a region with a few hundred dudes at once sounds pretty amazing, actually. Especially because of the additional transaction costs or spreading out, not doubling up, etc, and there isn't a single FC issuing orders. The coordination would be really cool and impressive, and probably a whole lot of fun for the attackers. That said, when it comes time to fight, every constellation has a very limited number of entrances, and barring wormhole luck, scouts would see the fleet coming and be able to pipebomb the whole ceptor fleet!

I love that 1000 interceptors is the new 1000 megathrons, but I really just don't think it's going to be an issue. And if it really seems like it's an issue, they'll just tweak it to disable propmods (or lower resists, or increase mass, or any number of simple adjustments).

It's been a long time since I've lived in Deklein, but there's no way it will be assaulted. It's a giant pipe. The only real threat to Deklein would be a truesec rebalance based on distance from Empire space (and wouldn't that be a bizzaro world, where Period Basis and Omist are the richest regions of the game!). Assuming the CFC southwestern division can be responsive in Fountain, they'll be fine too. It's really just the absentee landlords that are going to get absolutely hosed by this. The dronelands are so rich and dense, it's very likely that the eastern side of the map will be a patchwork of small alliances and freeports from constellation to constellation, and that the west and north will stay relatively the same. Obviously all of this will be decided by phase 3, but it makes perfect sense to first reduce mobility, then introduce new mechanics, and then give some reasons for fighting over space.

I think CCP is pretty hamfisted, no doubt, but I think that since Seagull took the helm that they are moving quickly, tackling big problems, and being very communicative with the player base. GSF set out to roleplay the villains, and succeeded admirably, but it might have come at the cost of having as much community support (aka pubbie upvotes) as less infamous groups might receive. I think they've come a long way from :ccp:

and that they're doing what they think is the most elegant and simple overhaul possible of what is maybe the second most complex game ever made.

I am pretty much an optimist about things, and am not deth2goons. I like to poke fun at modern GSF just because it is so different from the GSF that introduced me to Eve. :iiapa:

# ? Mar 10, 2015 17:10

Adbot: ADBOT LOVES YOU

# ? Jun 10, 2024 16:15

Bonfire Lit: Jul 9, 2008; If you're one of the sinners who caused this please unfriend me now.

Hollow Talk posted:

Essentially, Fozzie doesn't like to skew the existing meta with proposed upcoming changes, unless he is actively skewing the existing meta with proposed upcoming changes.

Fozzie just has a massive boner for interceptors. He doesn't really give a poo poo about the meta otherwise.

# ? Mar 10, 2015 17:11

pugnax: Oct 10, 2012; Specialization is for insects.

ChickenWing posted:

I think he was assuming that your force takes the command pimples unmolested, which honestly is just as bad as your force repairing your TCU/IHub/Station unmolested. Boredom as a weapon lives on.

Heh, no, I totally misunderstood that. gently caress that noise. I just reread it, and it says that 5 pilots can do it 30 minutes (again, in interceptors, presumably). So that beats the pants off of repping a station in 5 ospreys, but still would be doubtlessly painful/annoying over time.

Hollow Talk posted:

... plans of making supers essentially akin to a bard who gets to stand there and sing a song and cheer while everybody else is fighting...

This is what I mean by cognitive dissonance. Where's that post from a few months back about how GSF would absolutely reset the CFC if there wasn't a threat from supers?

# ? Mar 10, 2015 17:18

Libluini: May 18, 2012; I gravitated towards the Greens, eventually even joining the party itself.

The Linke is a party I grudgingly accept exists, but I've learned enough about DDR-history I can't bring myself to trust a party that was once the SED, a party leading the corrupt state apparatus ...; Grimey Drawer

grumplestiltzkin posted:

Judging from the talk coming out of ccp, step three is just as likely to be "nerf null moneymaking." You know, since our afktars are bringing in so much money, obviously null income is fine This assumes, of course, that they don't just immediately pat themselves on the back for fixing null after step 2 is deployed, which is honestly probably for the best, given how their "fixes" have worked so far.

The sad thing is, if CCP could find a way to make PVE more engaging (they're making baby steps here with the new AI the Drifters and Seekers use), being AFK wouldn't be needed anymore. Right now, AFK-ratting happens because people want to make money without burning out from sheer boredom. And this leads to situations were tons of money are injected into the game, but not much fun gameplay wise is actually happening.

With engaging PVE CCP wouldn't need to nerf moneymaking since being AFK with the new, engaging AI wouldn't even be possible, so the never-ending flow of money would go back to managable rates and everyone still could have fun. Win-win for CCP and us.

# ? Mar 10, 2015 17:18

Gwyneth Palpate: Jun 7, 2010; Do you want your breadcrumbs highlighted?

~SMcD

pugnax posted:

The coordination would be really cool and impressive, and probably a whole lot of fun for the attackers. That said, when it comes time to fight, every constellation has a very limited number of entrances, and barring wormhole luck, scouts would see the fleet coming and be able to pipebomb the whole ceptor fleet!

uh no

pipebombing relies on bubbles to force the incoming fleet into one spot

the only smartbombing of interceptors that can occur while traveling is to sit on the warp vector between gates and hope like hell they warp straight to gate without bouncing to a perch or celestial, then try to smartbomb them as they exit warp

# ? Mar 10, 2015 17:19

Ynglaur: Oct 9, 2013; The Malta Conference, anyone?

pugnax posted:

I'm always at a low level of trolling in this thread, but that's mostly because a subset of posters here have the magnificent attribute combination of being both hyperbolic and easily ruffled.

In most societies, this is called "being an rear end in a top hat." Don't be an rear end in a top hat: you know the mechanics well enough to have a good discussion. At the least, don't get upset when FruitNYogurtParfait calls you out for being an rear end in a top hat if you're explicitly trying to be one.

# ? Mar 10, 2015 17:22

Hollow Talk: Feb 2, 2014

pugnax posted:

This is what I mean by cognitive dissonance. Where's that post from a few months back about how GSF would absolutely reset the CFC if there wasn't a threat from supers?

It's not cognitive dissonance when it's different people posting, though? :confused:

I'm sure some people would love to reset the rest of the CFC. I'm not one of them. I think this is wishful thinking, because the ties between the CFC alliances are not purely dependent on in-game mechanics. A lot of people have invested, and are investing, an immense amount of time to coordinate all of these alliances, fleets, logistics, policies, squads, SIGs etc. The way the CFC is organised pretty much means that beyond perceived posting skill etc. at the end of the day your alliance, let alone corporation, does not really matter. I severly doubt that people who have spent ages getting things to work halfway smoothly in the first place would willingly throw all of their work out of the window because FCON have stupid posters.

fake-edit: I forgot that all Goonswarm posters share a mind, and the hivemind expressed itself through all of us. Except you. You are special.

# ? Mar 10, 2015 17:26

Borachon: Jun 15, 2011; Whiskey Powered

Hollow Talk posted:

Somebody already posted Fozzie's response to this. This was the "we don't want to interfere with the current meta" comment. On the other hand, they seem to be perfectly happy to vastly change the capital ship meta even further than they already did with Phoebe, with those plans of making supers essentially akin to a bard who gets to stand there and sing a song and cheer while everybody else is fighting.

Essentially, Fozzie doesn't like to skew the existing meta with proposed upcoming changes, unless he is actively skewing the existing meta with proposed upcoming changes.

I can understand not wanting to require command ships to claim sov, and it has little to do with the fleet combat meta. If some pubbie corp highsec idiot wants to head to the rear end end of the spire and claim an empty worthless system, he should be able to without the SP investment or ISK risk of moving an expensive command ship through nullsec. He should just have to spend a lot of time capturing and be relatively vulnerable during that time. There are lots of easy ways to do that, though, that don't result in every ihub in the game dying. Don't count on :ccp:

figuring that out, though.

# ? Mar 10, 2015 17:28

Rhymenoserous: May 23, 2008

Hollow Talk posted:

It's not cognitive dissonance when it's different people posting, though? I'm sure some people would love to reset the rest of the CFC. I'm not one of them. I think this is wishful thinking, because the ties between the CFC alliances are not purely dependent on in-game mechanics. A lot of people have invested, and are investing, an immense amount of time to coordinate all of these alliances, fleets, logistics, policies, squads, SIGs etc. The way the CFC is organised pretty much means that beyond perceived posting skill etc. at the end of the day your alliance, let alone corporation, does not really matter. I severly doubt that people who have spent ages getting things to work halfway smoothly in the first place would willingly throw all of their work out of the window because FCON have stupid posters.

fake-edit: I forgot that all Goonswarm posters share a mind, and the hivemind expressed itself through all of us. Except you. You are special.

Let me shoot FCON and SMA and I will be happy.

# ? Mar 10, 2015 17:31

Hollow Talk: Feb 2, 2014

Rhymenoserous posted:

Let me shoot FCON and SMA and I will be happy.

Nooooo, now pugnax can quote both posts and show cognitive dissonance in the hivemind. :argh:

# ? Mar 10, 2015 17:32

Spaceman Future!: Feb 9, 2007

Borachon posted:

I can understand not wanting to require command ships to claim sov, and it has little to do with the fleet combat meta. If some pubbie corp highsec idiot wants to head to the rear end end of the spire and claim an empty worthless system, he should be able to without the SP investment or ISK risk of moving an expensive command ship through nullsec. He should just have to spend a lot of time capturing and be relatively vulnerable during that time. There are lots of easy ways to do that, though, that don't result in every ihub in the game dying. Don't count on figuring that out, though.

Whats wrong with requiring a high SP and ISK investment in capturing a system? SOV is for all intents and purposes the Eve endgame, requiring a time and money investment to get at it doesn't strike me as unreasonable. Plus its not the entire fleet that requires that investment just your capture ship and if you cant provide a modicum of logistic support for your capture ship then why should you be getting sov anyway?

# ? Mar 10, 2015 17:45

Gwyneth Palpate: Jun 7, 2010; Do you want your breadcrumbs highlighted?

~SMcD

Spaceman Future! posted:

Whats wrong with requiring a high SP and ISK investment in capturing a system? SOV is for all intents and purposes the Eve endgame, requiring a time and money investment to get at it doesn't strike me as unreasonable. Plus its not the entire fleet that requires that investment just your capture ship and if you cant provide a modicum of logistic support for your capture ship then why should you be getting sov anyway?

um

the whole gimmick for gsf's entire presence in sov is exactly the opposite of "sov is the endgame"

we're founded on the idea that newbies should meaningfully be able to participate in sovereign 0.0

# ? Mar 10, 2015 17:51

DARPA: Apr 24, 2005; We know what happens to people who stay in the middle of the road. They get run over.

pugnax posted:

Especially because of the additional transaction costs or spreading out, not doubling up, etc, and there isn't a single FC issuing orders. The coordination would be really cool and impressive, and probably a whole lot of fun for the attackers. That said, when it comes time to fight, every constellation has a very limited number of entrances, and barring wormhole luck, scouts would see the fleet coming and be able to pipebomb the whole ceptor fleet!

There will be no cool coordination, or impressive fleet movements. Target regions will be chosen at random based on finding wormholes to systems at primetime. An FC will form fleet, C&P the member list into a soon to be made webapp and specify the target region. Then the resulting link gets pasted back into fleet and each pilot sets destination and free burns to their assigned targets. There won't be time to set up a pipe bomb because the interceptors will flood the region with impunity in less than 2 minutes. No one is going to be openly burning 255 ships across nine regions. If a defender shows up running a counter-entosis, do nothing and keep him impotently on grid. If they shoot back fly off grid and head to a secondary target. The region is now full of 1500 permanent command nodes. Great fun

Command ships getting a bonus for SOV lasers would be cool, but command ships only would be a huge time sink gating a new player out of SOV.

# ? Mar 10, 2015 17:52

Spaceman Future!: Feb 9, 2007

Glory of Arioch posted:

um

the whole gimmick for gsf's entire presence in sov is exactly the opposite of "sov is the endgame"

we're founded on the idea that newbies should meaningfully be able to participate in sovereign 0.0

I didn't mean to imply that *living* in sov is endgame, just that leading a fleet and capturing sov should be. any capture ship would need logistic support, everyone still has a role, mixing one high sp dude in with 20 whatever you feel likes does not strike me as a high bar and it encourages inclusion of multiple skill levels.

# ? Mar 10, 2015 17:54

ChickenWing: Jul 22, 2010

Spaceman Future! posted:

Whats wrong with requiring a high SP and ISK investment in capturing a system? SOV is for all intents and purposes the Eve endgame, requiring a time and money investment to get at it doesn't strike me as unreasonable. Plus its not the entire fleet that requires that investment just your capture ship and if you cant provide a modicum of logistic support for your capture ship then why should you be getting sov anyway?

Arguments like this lead us into the realm of "I have more SP ergo I am better".

A fleet of a thousand newbies in slashers should be able to take the sov of multitrillionaires who won't fight for it.

# ? Mar 10, 2015 18:01

Gwyneth Palpate: Jun 7, 2010; Do you want your breadcrumbs highlighted?

~SMcD

DARPA posted:

There will be no cool coordination, or impressive fleet movements. Target regions will be chosen at random based on finding wormholes to systems at primetime. An FC will form fleet, C&P the member list into a soon to be made webapp and specify the target region. Then the resulting link gets pasted back into fleet and each pilot sets destination and free burns to their assigned targets. There won't be time to set up a pipe bomb because the interceptors will flood the region with impunity in less than 2 minutes. No one is going to be openly burning 255 ships across nine regions. If a defender shows up running a counter-entosis, do nothing and keep him impotently on grid. If they shoot back fly off grid and head to a secondary target. The region is now full of 1500 permanent command nodes. Great fun

Command ships getting a bonus for SOV lasers would be cool, but command ships only would be a huge time sink gating a new player out of SOV.

that is a pretty darn good idea for a webapp

i will make this over the weekend

# ? Mar 10, 2015 18:02

NyxBiker: Sep 24, 2014

Spaceman Future! posted:

I didn't mean to imply that *living* in sov is endgame, just that leading a fleet and capturing sov should be. any capture ship would need logistic support, everyone still has a role, mixing one high sp dude in with 20 whatever you feel likes does not strike me as a high bar and it encourages inclusion of multiple skill levels.

EVE is a Sandbox, everybody can have their own endgame.

# ? Mar 10, 2015 18:08

Spaceman Future!: Feb 9, 2007

ChickenWing posted:

Arguments like this lead us into the realm of "I have more SP ergo I am better".

A fleet of a thousand newbies in slashers should be able to take the sov of multitrillionaires who won't fight for it.

Thats definitely fair, personally I dont see a capture spec character any differently than I see an indy specialist or some wierdo who specs in mining caps and those roles are fairly SP locked but inclusive gameplay should always be the priority especially in something as sandboxy as Eve. Im not especially militant on the idea just turning it over in my brain.

# ? Mar 10, 2015 18:09

grumplestiltzkin: Jun 7, 2012; Ass, gas, or grass. No one rides for free.

Mitsuo posted:

code:

CCP: Here are the new changes 
CFC: You're shooting yourselves in the foot
EVE-O + r/eve: lololol goon tears
CFC: also, we will easily abuse these changes in the following ways
EVE-O + r/eve: ayy lmao so salty nullbears

CCP: New patch deployed!
EVE-O + r/eve: WHAT THE gently caress WHY AREN'T THEY DYING

Glory of Arioch posted:

that is a pretty darn good idea for a webapp

i will make this over the weekend

# ? Mar 10, 2015 18:17

Baronash: Feb 29, 2012; So what do you want to be called?

Mitsuo posted:

code:

CCP: Here are the new changes 
CFC: You're shooting yourselves in the foot
EVE-O + r/eve: lololol goon tears
CFC: also, we will easily abuse these changes in the following ways
EVE-O + r/eve: ayy lmao so salty nullbears

CCP: New patch deployed!
EVE-O + r/eve: WHAT THE gently caress WHY AREN'T THEY DYING

Every drat time.

code:

THIS THREAD: Guys, guys. We are gonna set up dread caches all over our space. 
We'll all just fly in interceptors from place to place. 
We are totally gonna keep all our space because we're more organized than everyone else. 
Hahaha, CCP thinks these jump changes are going to hurt us.
CFC LEADERSHIP: We're gonna sell off some space because these jump changes suck.
THIS THREAD: Dread caches are a ridiculous idea. Who thought we were serious about that, huh?

At the moment, I'm inclined to file hyperbolic bullshit like "1000 interceptors" in the same category as "Dread caches."

That's not to say I think the changes are great in their current state, I just think people need to turn down the ridiculous theorycrafting.

Baronash fucked around with this message at 18:38 on Mar 10, 2015

# ? Mar 10, 2015 18:33

Gwyneth Palpate: Jun 7, 2010; Do you want your breadcrumbs highlighted?

~SMcD