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VitalSigns posted:Good point, if you're a good person, why would you to put effort into figuring out what's right and wrong to do? You should just kinda do you know...whatever and not really think about it. Thinking about whether your actions are good or bad and trying to do right is obviously just something hipsters do to impress people. When I do what I think is the right thing, I tend not to tell everyone around me that I am doing the right thing
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Mar 10, 2015 19:19
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ActusRhesus posted:When I do what I think is the right thing, I tend not to tell everyone around me that I am doing the right thing I'm sure he's got a sign up in his yard "I moved here for YOU, black people!"
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Mar 10, 2015 19:24
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bobtheconqueror posted:I'm sure he's got a sign up in his yard "I moved here for YOU, black people!" No. He doesn't need THEIR approval. He'll just write a guest editorial on some bullshit online community blog about how living among the black people taught him about himself and helped him confront his prejudice and privilege. There will be a stock photo of a black.child and a white child on a swingset. That's why minorities exist. To help white people reach nirvana.
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Mar 10, 2015 19:30
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Spun Dog posted:Systemic racism and abuse by authority don't make me angry, but don't get me started on those yoga class hippies! It's pretty hilarious but not in the intended way
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Mar 10, 2015 19:33
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ActusRhesus posted:When I do what I think is the right thing, I tend not to tell everyone around me that I am doing the right thing I don't know, it seemed topical enough to me. It seems a bit much to expect someone not to talk about why he moved to a town in a thread about astonishing revelations of punitive policing in that town... But I could totally see this thread as the final reveal of his 11th-dimensional plan to impress the internet with his diversity cred by picking out one American suburb out of tens of thousands that would become a hot political topic.
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Mar 10, 2015 19:34
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ActusRhesus posted:No. He doesn't need THEIR approval. He'll just write a guest editorial on some bullshit online community blog about how living among the black people taught him about himself and helped him confront his prejudice and privilege. There will be a stock photo of a black.child and a white child on a swingset. Do you function entirely on stereotypes?
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Mar 10, 2015 19:39
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ActusRhesus posted:No. He doesn't need THEIR approval. He'll just write a guest editorial on some bullshit online community blog about how living among the black people taught him about himself and helped him confront his prejudice and privilege. There will be a stock photo of a black.child and a white child on a swingset. I think you're reading too much into his mentioning it in this thread. I think a thread about racially charged events in Ferguson might be an alright place to discuss why he moved there. If he posts a link to his blog and asks us to comment or share it, then maybe you can get your hipster glory hound pitchfork out without seeming like a douchebag. Also, how are you hitting the period key instead of the space bar?
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Mar 10, 2015 19:40
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If you literally moved to a black neighborhood explicitly for the reason that you want to live near black folks because you think it will make you less awful as a person, you are unironically better than many, probably most white people. At least you're trying. It's better than living in a white neighborhood and saying you're colorblind.
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Mar 10, 2015 19:43
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bobtheconqueror posted:
Tablet
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Mar 10, 2015 19:51
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Zeitgueist posted:If you literally moved to a black neighborhood explicitly for the reason that you want to live near black folks because you think it will make you less awful as a person, you are unironically better than many, probably most white people. This is why you have people who are totally baffled by the concept of intentionally interacting with people of other races and cultures on a daily basis. Racism becomes normalized by isolation in an insular community out in the sticks where everyone you ever meet is constantly dropping justifications for systemic racism like "well rap music discourages work and fatherhood" and "why can't those people just behave when they get bad news?" without ever being called out by someone.
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Mar 10, 2015 20:09
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FAUXTON posted:This is why you have people who are totally baffled by the concept of intentionally interacting with people of other races and cultures on a daily basis. Racism becomes normalized by isolation in an insular community out in the sticks where everyone you ever meet is constantly dropping justifications for systemic racism like "well rap music discourages work and fatherhood" and "why can't those people just behave when they get bad news?" without ever being called out by someone. This is also the type of racism that people who are surrounded by white culture aren't likely to see. "I'm not racist I don't hate black people, I just think their culture is problematic". And microaggressions, because only literal Klan lynchings are really racist.
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Mar 10, 2015 20:13
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FAUXTON posted:This is why you have people who are totally baffled by the concept of intentionally interacting with people of other races and cultures on a daily basis. Racism becomes normalized by isolation in an insular community out in the sticks where everyone you ever meet is constantly dropping justifications for systemic racism like "well rap music discourages work and fatherhood" and "why can't those people just behave when they get bad news?" without ever being called out by someone. This reminds me of O'Reilly going to that restaurant and being flabbergasted that black people weren't throwing food or eating with their hands.
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Mar 10, 2015 20:18
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Zeitgueist posted:If you literally moved to a black neighborhood explicitly for the reason that you want to live near black folks because you think it will make you less awful as a person, you are unironically better than many, probably most white people. Actually it means you care more about the color of people's skin than the content of their character.
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Mar 10, 2015 20:43
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tsa posted:Actually it means you care more about the color of people's skin than the content of their character. No, it means you recognize the effects of segregated living and are trying to be better by directly integrating.
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Mar 10, 2015 20:50
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tsa posted:Actually it means you care more about the color of people's skin than the content of their character. Ah yes, noted segregationist Dr Martin Luther King Jr who fought bravely against anyone racist enough to notice that all-white schools and neighborhoods existed.
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Mar 10, 2015 20:58
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I thought it meant you don't want your child[ren] to see other races as a scary thing so you wanna make sure to move somewhere where there's more than one type of ethnicity.
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Mar 10, 2015 21:00
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I got the "use MLK quote to argue for segregation" space on my Ferguson BINGO card filled Though at this point I've gotten that one so many times it's completely covered in ink.
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Mar 10, 2015 21:03
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RareAcumen posted:I thought it meant you don't want your child[ren] to see other races as a scary thing so you wanna make sure to move somewhere where there's more than one type of ethnicity. No poors though.
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Mar 10, 2015 21:03
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Once again, this whole conversation could easily be avoided if the political will to integrate schools via busing still existed. Why should parents get the choice to segregate their children in the first place? If they want to live a bedroom community where everyone passes the paper bag test, sure whatever, you probably can't reach them anyway. But for the kids that shouldn't be an option - forcibly integrate schools and tell the whiners to gently caress off, just like Truman did with the military.
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Mar 10, 2015 21:04
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Powercrazy posted:No poors though. As if this isn't a coded "no browns".
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Mar 10, 2015 21:06
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AreWeDrunkYet posted:Once again, this whole conversation could easily be avoided if the political will to integrate schools via busing still existed. Why should parents get the choice to segregate their children in the first place? If they want to live a bedroom community where everyone passes the paper bag test, sure whatever, you probably can't reach them anyway. But for the kids that shouldn't be an option - forcibly integrate schools and tell the whiners to gently caress off, just like Truman did with the military. In theory yes, but these days there is nothing preventing people from moving to a non-incorporated housing development where the median housing costs are well above what someone at the median income could possibly afford, incorporating, and then creating their own school districts outside of say Detroit, or Atlanta, or Dallas, or basically preventing White-Flight in any way. Zeitgueist posted:As if this isn't a coded "no browns". It's absolutely implicit.
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Mar 10, 2015 21:13
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AreWeDrunkYet posted:Once again, this whole conversation could easily be avoided if the political will to integrate schools via busing still existed. Why should parents get the choice to segregate their children in the first place? If they want to live a bedroom community where everyone passes the paper bag test, sure whatever, you probably can't reach them anyway. But for the kids that shouldn't be an option - forcibly integrate schools and tell the whiners to gently caress off, just like Truman did with the military. You'd have a better argument if schools weren't funded by local taxes. I think opposition to forced bussing has less to do with the race of the students and more to do with anger over deliberately choosing a town based on its school system, paying property taxes to fund said school system, and then being told your kid has to go somewhere else. Quality of school district is often a huge factor in people's home purchase. Other issues with forced bussing are the huge impact on after school activities, which particularly impact poor kids who are less likely to have a stay at home parent chauffeur them around after the school busses stop.
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Mar 10, 2015 21:13
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VitalSigns posted:Their property taxes still go to the local public school either way. The local schools benefit more from people who pay taxes there but don't cost the school any money than if OP were to live in an upper class neighborhood to take advantage of the better public schools. Need to introduce a voucher system so that parents can enjoy artificially low property prices and avoid letting any of their tax money reach their neighbors.
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Mar 10, 2015 21:13
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ActusRhesus posted:You'd have a better argument if schools weren't funded by local taxes. I think opposition to forced bussing has less to do with the race of the students and more to do with anger over deliberately choosing a town based on its school system, paying property taxes to fund said school system, and then being told your kid has to go somewhere else. Quality of school district is often a huge factor in people's home purchase. Other issues with forced bussing are the huge impact on after school activities, which particularly impact poor kids who are less likely to have a stay at home parent chauffeur them around after the school busses stop. No it's a whole lot to do with racism. That doesn't mean it isn't also do with taxes, and a lot of time "choosing a town based on it's school system" means "the white school". What I'm saying is you're consistently underestimating the amount of racism that is going on in this stuff, and people who point it out aren't tilting at windmills. You can't divorce race from class and vice versa in the US, and most especially in the south.
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Mar 10, 2015 21:15
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ActusRhesus posted:You'd have a better argument if schools weren't funded by local taxes. I think opposition to forced bussing has less to do with the race of the students and more to do with anger over deliberately choosing a town based on its school system, paying property taxes to fund said school system, and then being told your kid has to go somewhere else. Quality of school district is often a huge factor in people's home purchase. Other issues with forced bussing are the huge impact on after school activities, which particularly impact poor kids who are less likely to have a stay at home parent chauffeur them around after the school busses stop. Does any state do the "robin hood" system that Texas had for a while? Where all school tax revenue was collected at the state level and then distributed out according to demographics of the state defined school districts?
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Mar 10, 2015 21:16
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Zeitgueist posted:No it's a whole lot to do with racism. That doesn't mean it isn't also do with taxes, and a lot of time "choosing a town based on it's school system" means "the white school". But you're assuming or at least implying that it's being chosen *because* it's the white school. You are right about the correllation between race and class and to that end more should be done to make poor schools not suck. But suggesting people who want their kid to go to a good school really just want a white student body is not entirely accurate.
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Mar 10, 2015 21:20
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ActusRhesus posted:You'd have a better argument if schools weren't funded by local taxes. I think opposition to forced bussing has less to do with the race of the students and more to do with anger over deliberately choosing a town based on its school system, paying property taxes to fund said school system, and then being told your kid has to go somewhere else. Quality of school district is often a huge factor in people's home purchase. Other issues with forced bussing are the huge impact on after school activities, which particularly impact poor kids who are less likely to have a stay at home parent chauffeur them around after the school busses stop. It should go without saying that local funding of schools is a bad and exclusionary idea in the first place. As for disparate impact on after school activities, just because historically busing programs shuttled the poor/minority kids does not mean that all programs have to run this way. For simplicity's sake, let's say a metropolitan area is 20% black and 80% white (but feel free to substitute poor, hispanic, disabled, or whatever works for your sensibilities). If some schools are 45% black, select enough students at random until you hit 20% and send them off to other schools where black students are underrepresented. Vice versa, if other schools are 95% white, select enough white students at random until you hit 80% and send them off to schools where white students are underrepresented. And unlike the busing programs of the past, at this point the technology exists to model this out in a way that minimizes the number of students being bused and the distance they have to travel while controlling across a wide-variety of socioeconomic indicators. Education ought to be a shared experience. e: And hopefully not getting totally off-topic, but a investment in a decent public transportation system makes the whole thing much less reliant on specialized buses that only run at certain hours. There are plenty of schoolkids on my bus ride in the morning, they just get off at the stop by the school while I stay on into the CBD. e2: I was curious about actual numbers, and less than 7.5% of the 40,000+ students in this city rely on dedicated schoolbuses to get to school. AreWeDrunkYet fucked around with this message at 21:31 on Mar 10, 2015 |
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Mar 10, 2015 21:23
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ActusRhesus posted:But you're assuming or at least implying that it's being chosen *because* it's the white school. You are right about the correllation between race and class and to that end more should be done to make poor schools not suck. But suggesting people who want their kid to go to a good school really just want a white student body is not entirely accurate. It's not necessarily a conscious "I hate black people" decision, it's more deeply embedded than that. But busing is a dogwhistle and specifically called out in the famous Atwater quote. And the intertwined nature of race/class in the USA means that "good school" is very likely to be very very white. The "good ones" are in the "good neighborhoods" and the good neighborhood are white. Schools are more segregated now than they were in the 60's. It's not an accident, even if people aren't blatant and explicit about it.
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Mar 10, 2015 21:26
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AreWeDrunkYet posted:It should go without saying that local funding of schools is a bad and exclusionary idea in the first place. Not everywhere is metropolitan. Your proposal doesn't really work for suburbs where you're dealing with bigger geographic distances and worse mass transit options.
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Mar 10, 2015 21:27
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Missourians are so sensitive to black people that you can have a city that's 20% black like Hazelwood and immediately they all start getting jumpy driving up to north county and call it "Hazelhood." Most of the people here would poo poo their pants if they went to visit new york
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Mar 10, 2015 21:29
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Zeitgueist posted:"I'm not racist I don't hate black people, I just think their culture is problematic". Their understanding is then based on the black people they see on TV, and the ones they see on TV are, in all honesty, pretty awful. They are also really inaccurate portrayals of what a black person is like. *I'm not sure what word I want to use here, but I'm talking about "guns and gold chains" type imagery
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Mar 10, 2015 22:03
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Zeitgueist posted:And the intertwined nature of race/class in the USA means that "good school" is very likely to be very very white. The "good ones" are in the "good neighborhoods" and the good neighborhood are white. Schools are more segregated now than they were in the 60's. It's not an accident, even if people aren't blatant and explicit about it. Sure, but I'm not sure I entirely buy into your implication that parents wanting to raise their kids in 'good', well-funded neighborhoods and school districts is inherently born of a desire, conscious or otherwise, to avoid racial minorities. I mean, even if I have a conscious desire to integrate myself into a more racially diverse neighborhood, if that means sending my kid to a badly funded, slave-to-the-test school, wouldn't that mean doing a disservice to my kid? Isn't this more a reflection on the racist tendencies of society/government at large rather than specific individuals within a whiter neighborhood?
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Mar 10, 2015 22:05
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theflyingorc posted:A significant part of the problem is that if you're already isolated from them in reality, mass media does a lot to make black people look really bad. The promoting of the rapper* archetype (by rich white people) has done a lot to exacerbate the "those people are different" attitudes of a lot of white people. Precisely my point. It's a white supremacist society. If you live in a white neighborhood and think you aren't racist, I would bet you're almost certainly way more racist in practice, versus a person who literally moved to a black neighborhood for explicitly racial reasons. Spiritus Nox posted:Sure, but I'm not sure I entirely buy into your implication that parents wanting to raise their kids in 'good', well-funded neighborhoods and school districts is inherently born of a desire, conscious or otherwise, to avoid racial minorities. I mean, even if I have a conscious desire to integrate myself into a more racially diverse neighborhood, if that means sending my kid to a badly funded, slave-to-the-test school, wouldn't that mean doing a disservice to my kid? Isn't this more a reflection on the racist tendencies of society/government at large rather than specific individuals within a whiter neighborhood? You're making an argument against the conscious, not the unconscious.
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Mar 10, 2015 22:12
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Zeitgueist posted:You're making an argument against the conscious, not the unconscious. Okay, but the thing with the unconscious is that I would think it's hard to pin down exactly what's going on in there from person to person. Is someone choosing to live in this neighborhood because they have a subconcious desire to avoid minorities, or because it means sending their kid to an objectively better school system then the one that serves the district where most minorities live? Because the latter seems perfectly defensible to me. I guess what I'm getting at is that I don't know why we should spend the energy trying to determine who is/is not living here or there because of racial bias when it seems to me that the problem would be simplified to a great extent by having a school system that doesn't suck rear end/isn't weighed down by Jim Crow, thereby eliminating one of the social forces leading people to segregate themselves in this manner. Obviously I'm speaking in very idealized terms, here, but just in theory.
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Mar 10, 2015 22:18
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Spiritus Nox posted:Okay, but the thing with the unconscious is that I would think it's hard to pin down exactly what's going on in there from person to person. Is someone choosing to live in this neighborhood because they have a subconcious desire to avoid minorities, or because it means sending their kid to an objectively better school system then the one that serves the district where most minorities live? Because the latter seems perfectly defensible to me. I guess what I'm getting at is that I don't know why we should spend the energy trying to determine who is/is not living here or there because of racial bias when it seems to me that the problem would be simplified to a great extent by having a school system that doesn't suck rear end/isn't weighed down by Jim Crow. White people also avoid schools with too many asian students because they are too good at school: quote:Cathy Gatley, co-president of Monta Vista High School's parent-teacher association, recently dissuaded a family with a young child from moving to Cupertino because there are so few young white kids left in the public schools. "This may not sound good," she confides, "but their child may be the only Caucasian kid in the class." All of Ms. Gatley's four children have attended or are currently attending Monta Vista. One son, Andrew, 17 years old, took the high-school exit exam last summer and left the school to avoid the academic pressure. He is currently working in a pet-supply store. Ms. Gatley, who is white, says she probably wouldn't have moved to Cupertino if she had anticipated how much it would change.
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Mar 10, 2015 22:20
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Spiritus Nox posted:Okay, but the thing with the unconscious is that I would think it's hard to pin down exactly what's going on in there from person to person. Is someone choosing to live in this neighborhood because they have a subconcious desire to avoid minorities, or because it means sending their kid to an objectively better school system then the one that serves the district where most minorities live? Because the latter seems perfectly defensible to me. I guess what I'm getting at is that I don't know why we should spend the energy trying to determine who is/is not living here or there because of racial bias when it seems to me that the problem would be simplified to a great extent by having a school system that doesn't suck rear end/isn't weighed down by Jim Crow, thereby eliminating one of the social forces leading people to segregate themselves in this manner. Nobody is saying they're going to change people's minds on deeply imbedded cultural racism. You can't change what people won't admit is a problem. What you can do is address the problem, which is what people want to do. Pooling taxes and busing are a good start, there's a whole lot of other stuff needed, like direct race-aware funding. Colorblind reforms will just further embed racial disparities.
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Mar 10, 2015 22:24
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Zeitgueist posted:Nobody is saying they're going to change people's minds on deeply imbedded cultural racism. You can't change what people won't admit is a problem. Ah, I see. This makes more sense to me, thanks.
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Mar 10, 2015 22:25
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Zeitgueist posted:Precisely my point. It's a white supremacist society. If you live in a white neighborhood and think you aren't racist, I would bet you're almost certainly way more racist in practice, versus a person who literally moved to a black neighborhood for explicitly racial reasons. (not saying that the poster in question is doing that)
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Mar 10, 2015 23:07
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theflyingorc posted:I think there's a real danger of a person doing this basically treating it as race tourism. Sure there is, but as I said I'd still put that ahead of 'colorblind' functionally white neighborhoods
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Mar 10, 2015 23:11
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Peven Stan posted:White people also avoid schools with too many asian students because they are too good at school: hahaha, could you quote the whole article? It's behind a paywall.
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Mar 11, 2015 00:59
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