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Why don't you actually try addressing the points I'm making and follow me down the rabbit hole? I agree, I came on a little strong (but this is the conspiracy thread) so for now let's work with what we all know and agree is happening. From there, we can follow the evidence and see where it leads. Edit: For example, Larry has basically outlined the Pentagonization hypothesis, whereby America enriches herself by exporting violence and misery throughout the world. It is a good one, and I've got a lot of sympathy for it.
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Mar 11, 2015 16:01
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Shbobdb posted:Why don't you actually try addressing the points I'm making and follow me down the rabbit hole? I agree, I came on a little strong (but this is the conspiracy thread) so for now let's work with what we all know and agree is happening. From there, we can follow the evidence and see where it leads. You haven't made any salient points. You keep trying to say that 9/11 wasn't caused by a bunch of terrorists from Al-Queda without coming right out and saying it, but you didn't actually provide any evidence that would point the discussion in that direction. If you want to claim that "the official narrative" didn't happen, then lay down some evidence and start the discussion. I'm not going to hold your hand for you, grow a pair and actually say something directly for gently caress's sake instead of acting like a weirdo cultist creep.
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Mar 11, 2015 16:06
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Surely Monarch (on principle) isn't that hard to believe. That intelligence agencies and scientists would want to see if it's possible to mind control people. Why wouldn't they try it if they got the opportunity? Anything beyond that (whether/how well it works, is it/how much is it being used today) would be conjecture based on circumstantial evidence. As for 9/11, there's a poo poo-ton of conspiracy theories questioning the official narrative. If you have the patience to wade through a ton of YouTube stuff (a lot of which is/might be bullshit) you'll definitely find a reasonable amount of suitable evidence to doubt the official narrative. "The events of that day were shady as gently caress" is a conclusion I think any reasonable person might draw if they followed all the different lines of investigation into the subject. Undoubtedly the presence of WMD was also a shady as gently caress premise to go to war. With two wars started and hundreds of thousands of civilians killed on shady premises it brings the wars (and their motives) into question as well. I think discussing the actual evidence that 9/11 was some sort of set up is a bit pointless because there is a wealth of great information readily available online. If you really want to see the case against the official narrative it can easily be found. EnderWiggin fucked around with this message at 16:28 on Mar 11, 2015 |
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Mar 11, 2015 16:26
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QuarkJets posted:You haven't made any salient points. You keep trying to say that 9/11 wasn't caused by a bunch of terrorists from Al-Queda without coming right out and saying it, but you didn't actually provide any evidence that would point the discussion in that direction. Ummmm . . . have you read anything I've written? I've very explicitly said that 9/11 was caused by a bunch of terrorists from Al Qaeda. If you are going to troll the thread, at least try to read (and learn how to spell Al Qaeda).
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Mar 11, 2015 16:56
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EnderWiggin posted:Surely Monarch (on principle) isn't that hard to believe. That intelligence agencies and scientists would want to see if it's possible to mind control people. Why wouldn't they try it if they got the opportunity? The only evidence for the existence of Monarch (as opposed to the broader MK-ULTRA program) is the word of one person whose story is full of inconsistencies. The first Google result for Project Monarch declares, "Amidst the subtle cerebral circumvention of the gullible populace, through a multitude of manipulated mediums, lies one of the most diabolical atrocities perpetrated upon a segment of the human race; a form of systematic mind control which has permeated every aspect of society for almost fifty years. To objectively ascertain the following, one may need to re-examine preconceived ideologies relating to the dualistic nature of mankind. Resolving the philosophical question of whether we are inherently good or inherently evil is tantamount in shaping our perception of reality; specifically, the spiritual variable within the equation of life." Better yet, "In 1776, a Bavarian Jesuit by the name of Adam Weishaupt was commissioned by the House of Rothschild to centralize the power base of the Mystery Religions into what is commonly known as the Illuminati, meaning "Enlightened Ones." This was an amalgamation of powerful occultic bloodlines, elite secret societies and influential Masonic fraternities, with the desire to construct the framework for a 'New World Order.'" Does that sound sensible to you? quote:As for 9/11, there's a poo poo-ton of conspiracy theories questioning the official narrative. If you have the patience to wade through a ton of YouTube stuff (a lot of which is/might be bullshit) you'll definitely find a reasonable amount of suitable evidence to doubt the official narrative. I do not, in fact, have the patience to wade through a ton of YouTube stuff. There's a great deal of easily debunked 9/11 Truther stuff on the Internet; what sites/videos specifically do you find credible? Silver2195 fucked around with this message at 17:07 on Mar 11, 2015 |
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Mar 11, 2015 17:03
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EnderWiggin posted:Surely Monarch (on principle) isn't that hard to believe. That intelligence agencies and scientists would want to see if it's possible to mind control people. Why wouldn't they try it if they got the opportunity? Sure, that sounds plausible But then you have to assume that all of the people working for those agencies is okay with mind controlling a population involuntarily ... and that all of the scientists are also okay with it are okay with that too ... and all of the supporting personnel who are needed to make such a project possible, they're okay with mind control... ... and all of these people are also willing to mind control their own families, I guess? It's plausible that some people would want to try and develop such a thing, but it's implausible that it would actually get used on a large scale unless you allow yourself to fall victim to confirmation bias. That's the same problem that most conspiracy theories have: you often have to ignore contradictory evidence and flaws in logic in order to make the theory even a little bit plausible. quote:As for 9/11, there's a poo poo-ton of conspiracy theories questioning the official narrative. If you have the patience to wade through a ton of YouTube stuff (a lot of which is/might be bullshit) you'll definitely find a reasonable amount of suitable evidence to doubt the official narrative. Again, that's because people are susceptible to a number of cognitive biases that lead us to illogical conclusions. I've seen many of the YouTube videos suggesting one reason or another for the official narrative to be wrong, but they're usually based on a misunderstanding of physics or they lack any substantial evidence. For instance, take this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dr4BJ89Df5Q For those that don't feel like watching a poorly made video, the creator claims that this is evidence of an IR targeting device being used to direct the plane into the tower. There are several problems with this idea: 1) The dot moves in a pattern that is consistent with sunlight reflecting off of the plane's windows 2) The dot is white, which is what you'd expect to see from reflected sunlight and unlike any IR targeting device 3) He then claims that the "dot" can be seen on the fireball, which is not how light works. 4) He follows a piece of shrapnel as it falls from the crash site, claiming that it's the dot even though the dot how now changed in both size and luminosity, and now appears to be glinting. An IR targeter does not glint, but a piece of spinning shrapnel reflecting sunlight certainly would 5) Several times he claims that IR light has a higher frequency than visible light, which is completely wrong 6) He tries to claim that a second glinting object somewhere else in the frame is a reflection of the beam in a way that makes no physical sense 7) He notices a bird-shaped object in one video and assumes that it totally wasn't a bird but was actually a plane with the targeting laser flying several kilometers away. This implies that it must have been moving at something like Mach 50 in order to fly through the frame at the observed speed, a speed that is literally impossible to maintain for several physical reasons There are a bunch of other problems, but I think that I've made my point already. And that doesn't even get into the obvious logistical issues with this idea. "Why use an IR targeting device when terrorists who want to crash the plane are already flying the plane?" "Why didn't anyone notice someone mounting an IR camera onto the planes?" "Why didn't anyone notice someone installing a bunch of new flight control modules connected to an IR camera on the planes?" Etc etc etc Someone urgently looking for an alternative explanation to the events of that day might believe that this is totally reasonable evidence of an alternative narrative, but a basic understanding of physics and a refusal to accept spoon-feeding of information is enough to shatter this alternative explanation. quote:Undoubtedly the presence of WMD was also a shady as gently caress premise to go to war. Undoubtedly. Is that sufficient evidence to claim a worldwide conspiracy by international media outlets and the illuminati? No quote:With two wars started and hundreds of thousands of civilians killed on shady premises it brings the wars (and their motives) into question as well. Okay. Bring some forth that you'd be interested in discussing, then. All of the evidence against the official narrative that I've found in the past has ultimately been bullshit. The official narrative is the one that is best supported by the physical evidence that I've seen.
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Mar 11, 2015 17:10
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Shbobdb posted:Ummmm . . . have you read anything I've written? I've very explicitly said that 9/11 was caused by a bunch of terrorists from Al Qaeda. If you are going to troll the thread, at least try to read (and learn how to spell Al Qaeda). Yes, I have: Shbobdb posted:While "Al Qaeda" is too trite of an answer and "19 men affiliated with Al Qaeda" discounts a lot of the support they received and feeds into a "heroic" understanding of history, either answer serves well enough for our purposes. You're trying to claim that these answers are correct while simultaneously hinting at an alternative narrative. Just come right out and tell us what your opinion is instead of dancing around the bush
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Mar 11, 2015 17:12
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Are you kidding me with Project Monarch? We all agree that MK-ULTRA existed and that mass media is used as a means of social control. What is so surprising or unbelievable about Project Monarch aside from a naive "Well, that would never happen" which is a terrible argument. At this point, Project Monarch is so widespread that it is hiding out in plain sight. It is such a known and accepted part of the music industry that they openly show it in music videos and sing about it. I mean, there is a reason why the majority of celebrities we see were literally raised in the entertainment industry and groomed for their role in society. I get being skeptical but that seems more like willful ignorance to me.
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Mar 11, 2015 17:17
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QuarkJets posted:You're trying to claim that these answers are correct while simultaneously hinting at an alternative narrative. Just come right out and tell us what your opinion is instead of dancing around the bush I'm not hinting at any alternative narrative. But there is more to it. Mujahadeen->Taliban->AQ is a CIA created product, like ISIS. That's not a secret and is important to know. An understanding of what happened in Afghanistan is important for what is happening in Syria. Edit: This ties in directly with what Larry was talking about when he quoted Noam Chomsky.
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Mar 11, 2015 17:19
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Shbobdb posted:What is so surprising or unbelievable about Project Monarch aside from a naive "Well, that would never happen" which is a terrible argument. One of the most fascinating things to me about conspiracy theorists is that no matter what opposition to your theories is presented, all you ever hear is "Well, that would never happen." "There is little to no evidence supporting your theory" becomes "Well, that would never happen." "Your theory is implausible for logistical or technical reasons" becomes "Well, that would never happen." "Your theory is no more explanatory than a much simpler one" becomes "Well, that would never happen."
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Mar 11, 2015 17:37
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Shbobdb posted:Are you kidding me with Project Monarch? We all agree that MK-ULTRA existed and that mass media is used as a means of social control. What is so surprising or unbelievable about Project Monarch aside from a naive "Well, that would never happen" which is a terrible argument. At this point, Project Monarch is so widespread that it is hiding out in plain sight. It is such a known and accepted part of the music industry that they openly show it in music videos and sing about it. I mean, there is a reason why the majority of celebrities we see were literally raised in the entertainment industry and groomed for their role in society. For gently caress's sake, at least provide some poorly constructed evidence to substantiate your bullshit. At this point you're just wasting time
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Mar 11, 2015 17:41
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Shbobdb posted:I'm not hinting at any alternative narrative. But there is more to it. Mujahadeen->Taliban->AQ is a CIA created product, like ISIS. That's not a secret and is important to know. An understanding of what happened in Afghanistan is important for what is happening in Syria. Yes, it is important to recognize that the 9/11 attackers can be traced back to a group created by the CIA a long time ago. It's a good example of violence begetting violence. Some might claim that this is proof that the CIA directly planned and executed 9/11, which is bullshit
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Mar 11, 2015 17:45
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http://www.christiantoday.com/article/iraqi.officials.arrest.american.israeli.military.advisors.on.suspicion.of.aiding.isis/49660.htm If Al-Qaeda did 9/11 because of American support of Israel, it would stand to reason that Al-Qaeda saw Israel as a target also. Why then, have they never targeted Israel? If Al-Qaeda did 9/11 because they wanted to destabilise the region, I would think it would be a lot easier for them to crash a plane into Israel and a lot more destabilising to the region to have Israel try to launch an offensive in Afghanistan. Their planes would have to fly over Jordan, Iraq and Iran to get to their target. Who benefited from 9/11? Not Muslims, that's for loving sure
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Mar 11, 2015 17:46
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Larry_Mullet posted:http://www.christiantoday.com/article/iraqi.officials.arrest.american.israeli.military.advisors.on.suspicion.of.aiding.isis/49660.htm There is an entire Wikipedia page devoted to this topic, which contains, among other things, several quotes from Osama bin Laden himself on the subject. I suppose this doesn't rule out the possibility that OBL was (is???) a CIA robot or a hologram or something, though.
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Mar 11, 2015 17:54
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Ditching the 9/11 angle for what you think is an easier target? Fine. 1) We know MK-ULTRA happened. 2) Former CIA Director William Cody admitted that the Monarch Mind Control Project existed. Plus, numerous stars have spoken plainly about it, like Roseanne Barr, Tila Tequila, Amanda Brynes, and plenty more. 3) Cathy O'Brien (an early experiment in MMC) talked about her experience with it, especially when it comes to multiple personalities. 4) Numerous stars exhibit similar "split personalities" such as Hannah Montana/Miley Cyrus or Beyonce/Sasha Fierce. Plenty of other examples too, Eminem/Slim Shady, Mariah Carey/Mimi, Christina Aguilera/Xtina, etc. There is also video evidence for numerous other stars such as Brittany Spears, Nicki Minaj exhibiting signs of alternative personalities created through Monarch Programming. 5) Butterflies and other occult symbolism (all seeing eye, rams, etc.) commonly found in their music videos and promotional materials and the case starts to get a lot clearer. 6) Common side effects. MMC isn't a perfectly developed science, so you'll see people occasionally trying to break free of their handlers. Brittany Spears, Amanda Brynes, Mariah Carey, D'Angelo and Shia La'Bouef all had shockingly similar mental breakdowns. Now, I'll give you that 4, 5 & 6 would seem circumstantial if 1, 2 & 3 hadn't also happened. We know the Monarch Mind Control program is real because a CIA director and numerous people who were subjected to it told us it was real. It is out in the open, a known fact. Since it is an ingrained part of the entertainment industry, it makes sense that you'd see references to it pop up everywhere (5). They aren't trying to hide it or use some crazy "sympathetic magic" that some nutjobs would have you believe. It is just something that is a part of their world, so seeing evidence of it makes sense. It is like showing a picture of the Statue of Liberty when talking about NYC. Just part of the landscape. Likewise, the breakdowns that happen as a result of MMC display a similar pathology of symptoms (6).
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Mar 11, 2015 18:06
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FWIW I don't really subscribe to the Monarch stuff, although it wouldn't surprise me if it was the case, the CIA has been HEAAAVILY involved in Hollywood since the Mafia that ran it back in the 40's upped and left for vegas, but as far as it being anything more than passive conditioning of the population, I don't think I buy it.GrumpyDoctor posted:There is an entire Wikipedia page devoted to this topic, which contains, among other things, several quotes from Osama bin Laden himself on the subject. It's hard to argue against direct quotes, I agree, lets have a look at what he said after the attacks "I stress that I have not carried out this act, which appears to have been carried out by individuals with their own motivation." oh... hmmm that is odd, he was probably just lying and I'm sure the videos of him having top secret meetings with his advisors where they admit that they did it are completely legit, and videotaping things of that nature is definitely a good strategy and not at all something the CIA would fake. Boy is my face red. Larry_Mullet fucked around with this message at 18:10 on Mar 11, 2015 |
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Mar 11, 2015 18:07
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Shbobdb posted:Ditching the 9/11 angle for what you think is an easier target? Fine. Don't forget Bat-Man/Bruce Wayne, or Christian Bale/Patrick Bateman.
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Mar 11, 2015 18:13
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QuarkJets posted:Yes, it is important to recognize that the 9/11 attackers can be traced back to a group created by the CIA a long time ago. It's a good example of violence begetting violence. Sure, the CIA creates a radical Islamic group in Afghanistan and it bites us in the rear end. Clearly, that is why they went ahead and did the same thing again in Syria (and to a lesser extent Libya). It isn't because things actually went according to plan the first time. They just keep randomly creating these groups which we then have to go in and destroy to create an American hegemony. Same tactic employed in Iraq, where we propped up a dictator and then, welp, just had to go in to take him down. No pattern there at all, just a lot of random coincidences.
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Mar 11, 2015 18:13
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Larry_Mullet posted:http://www.christiantoday.com/article/iraqi.officials.arrest.american.israeli.military.advisors.on.suspicion.of.aiding.isis/49660.htm People do not always do the things that will actually benefit them, in fact people often do things that are stupid or run counter to their own self interest. We can only say whether an action benefited someone or not until after the fact. There is no need or evidence of a conspiracy, just the usual fallible or irrational actions of human beings.
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Mar 11, 2015 18:14
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Shbobdb posted:No pattern there at all, just a lot of random coincidences. Agreed, glad we are on the same page.
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Mar 11, 2015 18:17
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Yeah man, Reagan hanging out with the Mujahadeen, McCain hanging out with ISIS. But, nope, turns out they are America's enemy. No way to see that coming.
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Mar 11, 2015 18:25
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Operation Northwoods Operation Northwoods was a series of proposals for actions against the Cuban government, that originated within the Department of Defense (DoD) and the Joint Chiefs of Staff (JCS) of the United States government in 1962. The proposals called for the Central Intelligence Agency (CIA) or other US government operatives to commit acts of terrorism against American civilians and military targets, blaming it on the Cuban government, and using it to justify a war against Cuba. The proposals were rejected by the Kennedy administration. Gulf of Tonkin incident It was originally claimed by the National Security Agency that the second Tonkin Gulf incident occurred on August 4, 1964, as another sea battle, but instead may have involved "Tonkin ghosts"(false radar images) and not actual NVN torpedo boat attacks. In the 2003 documentary The Fog of War, the former Secretary of Defense Robert S. McNamara admitted that the August 2nd USS Maddox attack happened with no Defense Department response, but the August 4th Gulf of Tonkin attack never happened. Gulf of Tonkin: McNamara admits It didn't happen. The outcome of these two incidents was the passage by Congress of the Gulf of Tonkin Resolution, which granted President Lyndon B. Johnson the authority to assist any Southeast Asian country whose government was considered to be jeopardized by "communist aggression". The resolution served as Johnson's legal justification for deploying US conventional forces and the commencement of open warfare against North Vietnam. Zionism in Morocco Israeli historian Yigal Bin-Nun, a professor at Bar-Ilan University, has recently shaken dust off a concealed facet of the mass immigration of Moroccan Jews to Israel. Yesterday’s edition of the daily Al-Quds Al-Arabi, based in London, published a summary of the work done by Yigal addressing this chapter in Moroccan history. Yigal contends openly that the Mossad, the national intelligence agency of Israel, of being behind the whole operation wherein about 160,000 Moroccan Jews left Morocco towards Israel. Based on professor Yigal’s research, the secret services of Tel Aviv had sent to Morocco, in the early 1960s, a group of officers whose primary mission had been to carry out attacks against well-settled Jews in Morocco in order to terrorize them and subsequently convince them that they were victims of violent persecutions by the Moroccan authorities. Project TP-Ajax Main article: 1953 Iranian coup d'état On 4 April 1953, the CIA was ordered to undermine the government of Iran over a four month period, as a precursor to overthrowing Prime Minister Mohammad Mosaddegh. One tactic used to undermine Mosaddeh was to carry out false flag attacks "on mosques and key public figures", to be blamed on Iranian communists loyal to the government. The CIA project was code-named TP-Ajax, and the tactic of a "directed campaign of bombings by Iranians posing as members of the Communist party", involved the bombing of "at least" one well known Muslim's house by CIA agents posing as Communists. The CIA determined that the tactic of false flag attacks added to the "positive outcome" of Project TPAJAX. However, as "[t]he C.I.A. burned nearly all of its files on its role in the 1953 coup in Iran", the true extent of the tactic has been difficult for historians to discern Notice how at no point, holograms, the illuminati, lizards or aliens were mentioned. What was mentioned is verified fact that intelligence agencies and governments have zero qualms killing their own people and committing false flag attacks to further their goals, normally via war. Edit: and these are just some of the ones we know about. I very much doubt every false flag attack has been uncovered. Larry_Mullet fucked around with this message at 18:34 on Mar 11, 2015 |
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Mar 11, 2015 18:31
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Silver2195 posted:The only evidence for the existence of Monarch (as opposed to the broader MK-ULTRA program) is the word of one person whose story is full of inconsistencies. I'm not sure about the first Google search result. I've seen Cathy O Brian talking. A lot of what she says correlates with other systematic child abuse cases and overt cover ups. The connection between trauma and mind control makes sense to me from a psychological point of view. I'll definitely ask the next professional I meet about that. There's clearly not enough reasonable evidence to be sure, but I wouldn't rule it out. Silver2195 posted:
That's a nice story. I've no idea if it's sensible or not as a whole but it does contain a lot of people and things that do/did exist. Silver2195 posted:I do not, in fact, have the patience to wade through a ton of YouTube stuff. There's a great deal of easily debunked 9/11 Truther stuff on the Internet; what sites/videos specifically do you find credible? There's a ton of easily debunked 9/11 Truther stuff on the internet. And maybe just as much 9/11 truther stuff that is very evidently bullshit. I've been following it fairly casually with an open mind ever since I had my own internet (like 10 years now I guess). The only conclusion I can come to is that "the events of that day were shady as gently caress". For me there's reason to seriously distrust a lot of things.
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Mar 11, 2015 18:34
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the biggest flaw with conspiracy theories is that they presume the existence of a competent, well-lead, well-informed governmental structure which is able to effectively pursue and achieve goals like of all the childish naivite you need to be a 9/11 theorist presuming government isn't full of bumbling morons like every other aspect of life is just smdh boner confessor fucked around with this message at 18:45 on Mar 11, 2015 |
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Mar 11, 2015 18:43
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Larry_Mullet posted:Notice how at no point, holograms, the illuminati, lizards or aliens were mentioned. What was mentioned is verified fact that intelligence agencies and governments have zero qualms killing their own people and committing false flag attacks to further their goals, normally via war. GrumpyDoctor posted:One of the most fascinating things to me about conspiracy theorists is that no matter what opposition to your theories is presented, all you ever hear is "Well, that would never happen." "There is little to no evidence supporting your theory" becomes "Well, that would never happen." "Your theory is implausible for logistical or technical reasons" becomes "Well, that would never happen." "Your theory is no more explanatory than a much simpler one" becomes "Well, that would never happen."
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Mar 11, 2015 18:49
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What point are you making with this emptyquote? Silver2195 posted:I do not, in fact, have the patience to wade through a ton of YouTube stuff. There's a great deal of easily debunked 9/11 Truther stuff on the Internet; what sites/videos specifically do you find credible? not 9/11 but 7/7 (the London ones) - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pX4nmxJdddU 9/11 tower 7 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kciuTHmg_rc&t=3m5s https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YZ2VpfUqRoo
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Mar 11, 2015 18:53
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conspiracy theories seem to be fueled most of all by a deep suspicion that something is hosed up and we must prove it, whatever it is video 1) people misspeak sometimes video 2) any inaccurate information reported by the media is proof of a false flag video 3) the FBI is underhanded big shock boner confessor fucked around with this message at 18:58 on Mar 11, 2015 |
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Mar 11, 2015 18:56
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QuarkJets posted:Sure, that sounds plausible Well I wouldn't say they're "controlling a population" with monarch mind control (although advertisers happily do a good job of mind controlling populations lol). The trauma based mind control suggested by Monarch involves the systematic abuse of a child (preferably pre-6 when the child is still creating their "personality"). These sorts of systematic abuses (have been proven) to occur with the silence and compliance of family members, friends, community leaders (members of government etc.), as well as the assistance of authorities and the media in keeping it quiet. It doesn't seem to far fetched to me that such children could be used as subjects for some sort of trauma based mind control program. Or indeed that they couldn't find people to keep their mouths shut about it. That's totally different from mind control of a population though. QuarkJets posted:Again, that's because people are susceptible to a number of cognitive biases that lead us to illogical conclusions. I've seen many of the YouTube videos suggesting one reason or another for the official narrative to be wrong, but they're usually based on a misunderstanding of physics or they lack any substantial evidence. Sorry, I didn't watch that video, or read any of your write up on it. To me that looks like some crazy directed energy weapons/lizard people stuff. Like I said there's a ton of crazy theories. QuarkJets posted:Okay. Bring some forth that you'd be interested in discussing, then. All of the evidence against the official narrative that I've found in the past has ultimately been bullshit. The official narrative is the one that is best supported by the physical evidence that I've seen. Me posted:
Sorry but i'm not willing to build a case against the official narrative. I've just seen enough in the past 10 years to think it's shady as gently caress.
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Mar 11, 2015 18:58
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Larry_Mullet posted:What point are you making with this emptyquote? The "verified fact that intelligence agencies and governments have zero qualms killing their own people and committing false flag attacks to further their goals" is not something that anybody other than children disbelieve. It is not in dispute. Long lists of examples of it happening do nothing to substantiate contemporary, particular conspiracy theories, because no objections to these theories rest on the assumption that no authority would ever do that kind of thing on principle. But conspiracy theorists love to trot out examples of historical government treachery as though it's relevant. I don't know why, but it's endemic.
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Mar 11, 2015 19:07
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GrumpyDoctor posted:The "verified fact that intelligence agencies and governments have zero qualms killing their own people and committing false flag attacks to further their goals" is not something that anybody other than children disbelieve. It is not in dispute. Long lists of examples of it happening do nothing to substantiate contemporary, particular conspiracy theories, because no objections to these theories rest on the assumption that no authority would ever do that kind of thing on principle. But conspiracy theorists love to trot out examples of historical government treachery as though it's relevant. I don't know why, but it's endemic. it's projection: the main prerequisite of 9/11 conspiracy theorists is that you deeply distrust the government. since people tend to map their flaws onto their opponents, this flips around such that they believe conspiracy deniers must necessarily trust the government beyond reason
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Mar 11, 2015 19:12
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GrumpyDoctor posted:The "verified fact that intelligence agencies and governments have zero qualms killing their own people and committing false flag attacks to further their goals" is not something that anybody other than children disbelieve. It is not in dispute. Long lists of examples of it happening do nothing to substantiate contemporary, particular conspiracy theories, because no objections to these theories rest on the assumption that no authority would ever do that kind of thing on principle. But conspiracy theorists love to trot out examples of historical government treachery as though it's relevant. I don't know why, but it's endemic. What is truth to me is conspiracy theory for thee. We all agree these things happened but say something is while something is happening and you are crazy and not worth listening to.
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Mar 11, 2015 20:06
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Shbobdb posted:Ditching the 9/11 angle for what you think is an easier target? Fine. What the gently caress are you talking about? I made a huge 9/11 effortpost directly above the Project Monarch post, and another 9/11 post directly below the Project Monarch post. You're either an illiterate moron or you're intentionally ignoring posts for some stupid reason. I'll address the rest of your post later
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Mar 11, 2015 20:14
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Shbobdb posted:Sure, the CIA creates a radical Islamic group in Afghanistan and it bites us in the rear end. Clearly, that is why they went ahead and did the same thing again in Syria (and to a lesser extent Libya). It isn't because things actually went according to plan the first time. You're highlighting the cases where this kind of tactic backfired later and ignoring the cases where this kind of tactic didn't. This is known as Confirmation Bias, a common cognitive bias that is especially prevalent in conspiracy theories but can be found all over the place.
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Mar 11, 2015 20:24
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EnderWiggin posted:Well I wouldn't say they're "controlling a population" with monarch mind control (although advertisers happily do a good job of mind controlling populations lol). Okay, so how about providing some evidence of all of these things that you believe are true? quote:Sorry, I didn't watch that video, or read any of your write up on it. To me that looks like some crazy directed energy weapons/lizard people stuff. Like I said there's a ton of crazy theories. It's a guy who thinks that an IR laser was used to direct a plane into one of the towers. It's not crazy lizard people stuff, but it is crazy, and like most conspiracy theories it requires ignoring physics quote:Sorry but i'm not willing to build a case against the official narrative. I've just seen enough in the past 10 years to think it's shady as gently caress. You believe that the narrative is "shady as gently caress" but you're unwilling to provide any evidence to back up that belief? Why am I not surprised?
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Mar 11, 2015 20:28
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Okay, here we go, a crazy person deep dive:Shbobdb posted:Ditching the 9/11 angle for what you think is an easier target? Fine. As stated earlier, no, I haven't. quote:1) We know MK-ULTRA happened. Yes, that was a thing. quote:2) Former CIA Director William Cody admitted that the Monarch Mind Control Project existed. Plus, numerous stars have spoken plainly about it, like Roseanne Barr, Tila Tequila, Amanda Brynes, and plenty more. Yeah let's have a look at that: quote:ROSEANNE: Well, I have this head shrinker and he says it’s deliberately induced because the CIA is where they started inducing it when after they brought all the Nazis over from Germany to run American Psychiatric Association. So Roseanne hired a wacko "head shrinker" who has now convinced her that former Nazis implanted a mind control chip in her head. That's not what I'd call a reliable source. The rest of the sites that I found were trying to examine things like Tila Tequila's music videos for evidence of cult imagery and proof of the illuminati. More confirmation bias, in other words. It's really sad to see people so obsessed over a fantasy like this quote:3) Cathy O'Brien (an early experiment in MMC) talked about her experience with it, especially when it comes to multiple personalities. Crazy person makes crazy accusations and sells books to crazy people? Yeah, that's not what I'd consider solid evidence. Even if any of what she says is true, it's not proof of a widespread mind control program in any sense. quote:4) Numerous stars exhibit similar "split personalities" such as Hannah Montana/Miley Cyrus or Beyonce/Sasha Fierce. Plenty of other examples too, Eminem/Slim Shady, Mariah Carey/Mimi, Christina Aguilera/Xtina, etc. There is also video evidence for numerous other stars such as Brittany Spears, Nicki Minaj exhibiting signs of alternative personalities created through Monarch Programming. Haha, what? A pseudonym or a stage name is proof of mind control? That's idiotic. Multiple Personality Disorder requires identifying oneself as at least two separate persons, which is not the case for any of these people no matter what you'd like to believe. Oh poo poo, maybe Mark Twain was under Monarch Mind Control, too?! quote:5) Butterflies and other occult symbolism (all seeing eye, rams, etc.) commonly found in their music videos and promotional materials and the case starts to get a lot clearer. This is a nonsensical accusation and not proof of anything. quote:6) Common side effects. MMC isn't a perfectly developed science, so you'll see people occasionally trying to break free of their handlers. Brittany Spears, Amanda Brynes, Mariah Carey, D'Angelo and Shia La'Bouef all had shockingly similar mental breakdowns. Mental breakdowns are proof of MMC, too? That's idiotic. People in high-stress situations and with lots of money sometimes get hosed up. Sorry man, but mental breakdowns occurred long before MKULTRA, and they will continue to occur well into the future regardless of your dumb beliefs. Ernest Hemingway was probably a sufferer of MMC, I guess! quote:Now, I'll give you that 4, 5 & 6 would seem circumstantial if 1, 2 & 3 hadn't also happened. That's not how circumstantial evidence works. Rather, you are displaying Confirmation Bias, again. You're looking for a pattern, any pattern at all, even a false one, and inevitably finding some extremely shaky results. By your logic, every lottery winner who frittered away their winnings (most of them), every sufferer of a mental illness, and every person with a stage or pen name is also under MMC, even people who died long before MKULTRA. That's hilarious. quote:We know the Monarch Mind Control program is real because a CIA director and numerous people who were subjected to it told us it was real. It is out in the open, a known fact. Since it is an ingrained part of the entertainment industry, it makes sense that you'd see references to it pop up everywhere (5). They aren't trying to hide it or use some crazy "sympathetic magic" that some nutjobs would have you believe. It is just something that is a part of their world, so seeing evidence of it makes sense. It is like showing a picture of the Statue of Liberty when talking about NYC. Just part of the landscape. Likewise, the breakdowns that happen as a result of MMC display a similar pathology of symptoms (6). I'm not seeing any substantial evidence in your post, just a lot of bullshit. QuarkJets fucked around with this message at 21:09 on Mar 11, 2015 |
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Mar 11, 2015 20:58
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If I decide to draw something and I wind up drawing a fish, is that proof that I've been mind controlled by Christians? What if I draw a picture of a sombrero, surely that's evidence that the Mexican government has taken control of my brain!!!
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Mar 11, 2015 21:00
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This thread is so great when it catches a live one or two 
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Mar 11, 2015 21:04
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Tater Love 
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Too bad this one's a fake. You're doing your best bud, but nothing compares to the real thing.
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Mar 11, 2015 21:10
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QuarkJets posted:Okay, so how about providing some evidence of all of these things that you believe are true? I don't think I talked much about "what I believe to be true" in what you quoted. I stated some facts. Check out "Conspiracy of Silence", it's free to watch on You Tube and will open your eyes a little bit to systematic child abuse. For further investigation check out the stuff on a similar (almost identical) case in Belgium involving Marc Dutroux (although it's fair to say the ring leader was never really caught there either). There are similar stories coming out in the UK press right now actually in the wake of Jimmy Saville -a whole bag of worms in its own right. The haunting testimony of the two children from Cambridge (Camden?) is both particularly chilling and familiar with the other cases. If you follow the investigations of the above you will see why I don't think the Monarch theory is so far fetched -not that there's solid proof it in particular exists/existed. QuarkJets posted:It's a guy who thinks that an IR laser was used to direct a plane into one of the towers. It's not crazy lizard people stuff, but it is crazy, and like most conspiracy theories it requires ignoring physics For me that level of investigation might as well be crazy lizard people stuff. QuarkJets posted:
You shouldn't be surprised. This will be the third time I've said me posted:I think discussing the actual evidence that 9/11 was some sort of set up is a bit pointless because there is a wealth of great information readily available online. If you really want to see the case against the official narrative it can easily be found. This is my opinion formed in 10 years of casually investigating the events of 9/11 with a completely open mind. There's a LOT of bullshit mixed in there too. I never created my own running narrative of all the reasonable oddities that make the official narrative seem suspicious, I guess I should have for just this type of argument. I don't want to get into a cycle me sending you 9/11 truther articles and videos and you trying to debunk them. It's a waste of both of our times.
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Mar 11, 2015 21:31
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As for mass mind control, who here doubts that mass mind control is use on people every day?
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Mar 11, 2015 21:35
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