Magic: The Gathering: Megathread: Spoiler Argument Stadium

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dragon enthusiast: Jan 1, 2010

I wonder what they're going to bring back for BFZ, they have two sets to cram in material from two separate blocks for.

# ? Mar 12, 2015 19:59

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# ? Jun 3, 2024 12:26

Spiderdrake: May 12, 2001

This thread is amazing at recycling the beginnings and endings of discussions, on the same page.

Sigma-X posted:

RoE had one nonbasic IIRC and it was Eldrazi Temple and it is not a good card.

Yeah, so whatever point about THE EDICT being made is nothing new.

No one ever found anything anyway. It's like every other salvation rumor.

# ? Mar 12, 2015 20:01

Zoness: Jul 24, 2011; Talk to the hand.; Grimey Drawer

AceClown posted:

So I'm only a stupid noob but that Myth Realised card doesn't have haste, does that mean you can't attack with it?

haste only considers if the card has been in play since the turn started - you can't attack with it the turn you play it but after that you can attack with it just fine.

# ? Mar 12, 2015 20:01

Moatman: Mar 21, 2014; Because the goof is all mine.

AceClown posted:

So I'm only a stupid noob but that Myth Realised card doesn't have haste, does that mean you can't attack with it?

No, it's still the same object, so once it's been on the field a turn it can attack. Same idea as manlands (lands that turn into creatures like Mutavault).

# ? Mar 12, 2015 20:02

DAD LOST MY IPOD: Feb 3, 2012; Fats Dominar is on the case

AceClown posted:

So I'm only a stupid noob but that Myth Realised card doesn't have haste, does that mean you can't attack with it?

No, you can't attack with it the same turn you play it but that's all.

If you have a Bestowed creature and during your first main phase or start of combat phase your opponent uses instant speed removal on the creature it's on, so the Bestow falls off and becomes a dude, it can attack right away. Summoning sickness only covers creatures that were put onto the board that turn. Otherwise Mutavault would never be able to attack.

# ? Mar 12, 2015 20:03

Mercury Crusader: Apr 20, 2005; You know they say that all demons are created equal, but you look at me and you look at Pyro Jack and you can see that statement is not true, hee-ho!

Spiderdrake posted:

Yeah, that's why I asked. i think we might get one more common cycle, but as is there's going to be 30~ multicolor cards in a draft pool of what, roughly 400 cards or so?

I guess I didn't notice it until I looked at the spoilers on a broad scale rather than just individual pieces. At least that means it'll function without KTK or FRF just fine when they cycle.

BXCX posted:

Based on the number crunch the only two nonbasics in the set are Evolving Wilds and Haven of the Spirit Dragon. Vial of Dragonfire is #247, Wilds is #248, Haven is #249, the first Plains is #250, and the rest of the basics cover up through #264.

Yeah, I read the numbers wrong. I figured there'd be a chance for one more land or one more artifact when I thought Vial was #246.

Mercury Crusader fucked around with this message at 20:13 on Mar 12, 2015

# ? Mar 12, 2015 20:09

AceClown: Sep 11, 2005

DAD LOST MY IPOD posted:

No, you can't attack with it the same turn you play it but that's all.

If you have a Bestowed creature and during your first main phase or start of combat phase your opponent uses instant speed removal on the creature it's on, so the Bestow falls off and becomes a dude, it can attack right away. Summoning sickness only covers creatures that were put onto the board that turn. Otherwise Mutavault would never be able to attack.

Ahh gotcha, it's the permanent itself that has to be under your control for a whole turn, so you couldn't bring it out, activate it and swing for one on the first turn.

I was thinking of Sarkan but you can +1 him straight away so that's why he has haste.

# ? Mar 12, 2015 20:30

STANKBALLS TASTYLEGS: Oct 12, 2012

So apparently Taigam is not getting a card, which just seems really weird because there isn't a complete five color legendary cycle despite each other color getting one.

# ? Mar 12, 2015 20:44

Mouth Ze Dong: Jan 2, 2005; Aint no thing like me, 'cept me.

To be pedantic: Summoning Sickness doesn't care about when a permanent hits the board, it cares about when that permanent comes under your control. That's why all the Act of Treason type spells grant haste to the stolen creature. That creature could have hit the board 20 turns ago, but it needs haste to attack after you steal it.

A creature needs to have been under your control since the beginning of your turn or have haste to attack or use activated abilities that have tapping as a cost. Whether or not it was a creature or a non-creature permanent when the turn started doesn't affect this.

All permanents have summoning sickness, but only creatures are affected by it. Lands have summoning sickness, but can tap for mana because they don't care. If Nissa animates the land you played this turn into a creature, it can't tap for mana until it has been under your control through the beginning of your next turn because of summoning sickness.
Remember this when dealing with manlands. I won a game during Mutavault's reign because they played it, animated it for a pack rat pump, and then tried to tap it for mana to kill a blocker.

# ? Mar 12, 2015 20:46

Angry Grimace: Jul 29, 2010; ACTUALLY IT IS VERY GOOD THAT THE SHOW IS BAD AND ANYONE WHO DOESN'T REALIZE WHY THAT'S GOOD IS AN IDIOT. JUST ENJOY THE BAD SHOW INSTEAD OF THINKING.

Fiend Computer posted:

So apparently Taigam is not getting a card, which just seems really weird because there isn't a complete five color legendary cycle despite each other color getting one.

The cycle is just Khan in the alternate, so you include Narset, I guess. Blue just not having a legendary seems silly though.

Spiderdrake posted:

Obviously we haven't seen enough commons to be certain yet, but they actually implied it isn't a multicolor focused set and it looks like "multicolor" is something in this timeline the dragons kept for themselves. Most draft environments don't require deep color fixing to support people drafting two colors.

I agree, actually, that's just the reasoning I think people are putting forward. Its not even necessarily going to be "correct" to draft specific clans. The thing is, there doesn't necessarily need to be fixing anyways because Fate Reforged has guaranteed refuges in every pack and its your last pack in DDF format. Evolving Wilds at common plus guaranteed duals in FRF are plenty.

Let's be clear though - the reason people were looking out for lands wasn't because they thought DDF as a format needed more fixing. They wanted an untapped dual for constructed.

Angry Grimace fucked around with this message at 20:55 on Mar 12, 2015

# ? Mar 12, 2015 20:47

AlternateNu: May 5, 2005; ドーナツダメ！

Fiend Computer posted:

So apparently Taigam is not getting a card, which just seems really weird because there isn't a complete five color legendary cycle despite each other color getting one.

That is a huge waste of that sweet rear end art of him sitting in a tree with lights in the form of the Jeskai eye surrounding him. Like...really. That is probably my favorite art released from DTK so far. It better show up on something.

# ? Mar 12, 2015 21:01

Applebees: Jul 23, 2013; yospos

Attorney at Funk posted:

You don't need a lot of fixing unless there's a lot of gold cards. I don't think we've even seen any multicolored commons, have we?

All the multicoloured cards have been spoiled, and there's only twenty-two in the set: seven mythic rares, ten rares, and five uncommons.

Edit: There is room for two more cards, but they wouldn't be part of a cycle.

Applebees fucked around with this message at 21:29 on Mar 12, 2015

# ? Mar 12, 2015 21:16

Angry Grimace: Jul 29, 2010; ACTUALLY IT IS VERY GOOD THAT THE SHOW IS BAD AND ANYONE WHO DOESN'T REALIZE WHY THAT'S GOOD IS AN IDIOT. JUST ENJOY THE BAD SHOW INSTEAD OF THINKING.

Applebees posted:

All the multicoloured cards have been spoiled, and there's only twenty-two in the set: seven mythic rares, ten rares, and five uncommons.

Edit: There is room for two more cards, but they wouldn't be part of a cycle.

Yeah, its not even likely they'll even exist since the "unknown" spots are at the very beginning and end of the alphabetical multicolored card list - every multicolored card from Arashin Soverign to Swift Warkite has been shown.

# ? Mar 12, 2015 21:31

mandatory lesbian: Dec 18, 2012

Orange Fluffy Sheep posted:

So our magic opinions are as good as your women opinions. Gotcha.

wow pretty random own from pages back, anyway we still arguing about how every card sucks

i do wanna complain about how dromoka's command breaks the pretty little numbering cycle they had going on :mad:

# ? Mar 12, 2015 21:35

Attorney at Funk: Jun 3, 2008; ...the person who says honestly that he despairs is closer to being cured than all those who are not regarded as despairing by themselves or others.

Applebees posted:

All the multicoloured cards have been spoiled, and there's only twenty-two in the set: seven mythic rares, ten rares, and five uncommons.

Edit: There is room for two more cards, but they wouldn't be part of a cycle.

That's actually fewer gold cards than were in Theros, as I recall.

# ? Mar 12, 2015 21:37

rabidsquid: Oct 11, 2004; LOVES THE KOG

forbidden lesbian posted:

wow pretty random own from pages back, anyway we still arguing about how every card sucks

i do wanna complain about how dromoka's command breaks the pretty little numbering cycle they had going on

I like Silumgar, he doesn't suck! Both of him.

# ? Mar 12, 2015 21:46

Orange Fluffy Sheep: Jul 26, 2008; Bad EXP received

What's the usual distribution of rarities in a set? I know mythic rares are 15 for a large set and 10 for small, but do the rest follow a pattern like that? How many commons to uncommons, that stuff.

# ? Mar 12, 2015 21:48

Nibble: Dec 28, 2003; if we don't, remember me

Recently it's been 101 commons, 80 uncommons, 53 rares, and 15 mythics for large sets.

# ? Mar 12, 2015 21:56

Cernunnos: Sep 2, 2011; ppbbbbttttthhhhh~

Orange Fluffy Sheep posted:

What's the usual distribution of rarities in a set? I know mythic rares are 15 for a large set and 10 for small, but do the rest follow a pattern like that? How many commons to uncommons, that stuff.

Khans is 101:80:53:15 (common:uncommon:rare:mythic) with 269 cards total (20 Basic Lands).

Fate is 70:60:35:10 with 185 cards total (10 Basic lands).

I assume Dragons will have a similar ratio.

Nibble posted:

Recently it's been 101 commons, 80 uncommons, 53 rares, and 15 mythics for large sets.

Theros was 101:60:53:15 with 249 cards total (20 Basics).

Cernunnos fucked around with this message at 22:08 on Mar 12, 2015

# ? Mar 12, 2015 22:04

Applebees: Jul 23, 2013; yospos

dragon enthusiast posted:

I wonder what they're going to bring back for BFZ, they have two sets to cram in material from two separate blocks for.

Fetch lands, man lands, Eldrazi creatures, and a Gideon planeswalker.

# ? Mar 12, 2015 22:05

Bugsy: Jul 15, 2004; I'm thumpin'. That's
why they call me
'Thumper'.; Slippery Tilde

dragon enthusiast posted:

I wonder what they're going to bring back for BFZ, they have two sets to cram in material from two separate blocks for.

I certainly hope they don't make a better emrakul.

# ? Mar 12, 2015 22:10

Ramos: Jul 3, 2012

Bugsy posted:

I certainly hope they don't make a better emrakul.

Emrakul is currently away regardless. Besides, we only need to worry about that when she inevitably gets infect from the Phyrexians.

# ? Mar 12, 2015 22:16

Uhhlive: Jun 18, 2004; I'm not the public.
I'm the President

Emrakul, Ally of Zendikar

# ? Mar 12, 2015 22:16

TheKingofSprings: Oct 9, 2012

forbidden lesbian posted:

wow pretty random own from pages back, anyway we still arguing about how every card sucks

i do wanna complain about how dromoka's command breaks the pretty little numbering cycle they had going on

Is it better for the cycle to be broken or for the card to be unplayable garbage

# ? Mar 12, 2015 22:21

Spiderdrake: May 12, 2001

You could totally make a playable six mana dromoka's command.

Pretty happy with the command cycle other than that, though. Way closer to balanced than the Lorwyn era cycle.

# ? Mar 12, 2015 22:23

rabidsquid: Oct 11, 2004; LOVES THE KOG

Ramos posted:

Emrakul is currently away regardless. Besides, we only need to worry about that when she inevitably gets infect from the Phyrexians.

They have this card, it's called Blightsteel Colossus and it's way easier to cheat into play.

TheKingofSprings posted:

Is it better for the cycle to be broken or for the card to be unplayable garbage

Unplayable garbage doesn't get brought up constantly and is only complained about during spoilers instead of during its entire run in Standard or eternal.

# ? Mar 12, 2015 22:24

Sigma-X: Jun 17, 2005

Spiderdrake posted:

You could totally make a playable six mana dromoka's command.

Pretty happy with the command cycle other than that, though. Way closer to balanced than the Lorwyn era cycle.

Sixmana Command (4WG)

Choose two:

Put a 5/5 Wurm Token into play
Creatures you control gain protection from a color of your choice
Search your library for a land and put it into play tapped
Gain 2 life

Seriously though I am glad they avoided making it a commander command and instead made it a reasonable 2 mana command.

# ? Mar 12, 2015 22:29

Moatman: Mar 21, 2014; Because the goof is all mine.

Ask Me For Warez posted:

Emrakul, ~~Ally~~ Avenger of Zendikar

I know it would never happen, just give me my super Avenger of Zendikar dammit

# ? Mar 12, 2015 22:30

mandatory lesbian: Dec 18, 2012

TheKingofSprings posted:

Is it better for the cycle to be broken or for the card to be unplayable garbage

you can't make everything playable anyway, so yeah making a cycle pretty is more important

# ? Mar 12, 2015 22:35

Fuzzy Mammal: Aug 15, 2001; Lipstick Apathy

So I was idly browsing one of the warhams threads since I'm enjoying the freude about how it's currently melting down and came across the following contrast someone made between GW+Warham to WotC+Magic.

quote:

quote:
I think games like Magic the Gathering show that it's possible to create incredibly intricate, mutually-interacting sets of spells/magic/rules/cards/whatever, without each card/spell/whatever necessarily breaking the game. Especially if you're willing to admit when you made a mistake and use errata or revisions to the system to remove old broken cards and add in new nonbroken ones, pay attention to the playtesting and feedback from your customers, and evolve the game, you can have a complicated magic system that works and isn't broken and adds to the game without dominating it. It's just not something GW's rules-writing process has ever been able to manage.

Warhammer's magic system is dumb and broken, but I'm not really interested in a "fantasy" game where the fantasy components are cosmetic.

Several points here.

And this is important, because there's an open document text file on your desktop that you're working on.

Magic has been awful for a very long time, and if you look at what they offer *now*, you could fairly say that it's a completely new product. It's hard to see, because their product and their rules are all a la carte. You might see that the mana colors are the same, and the basic setup of monsters, spells, and lands are in the same neighborhood and be forgiven for thinking that it's the same game. But they introduce poo poo like *non* stop, and flush things down the toilet just as quickly. Like playing with your old cards? Well, sure, there's venues where you can do that. Special tournament structures, but any time you venture into one of these areas, you run into the nightmare of the Magic community bazaar. Where rarity is like a drug. See your opponents running a common deck and want to counter it? Open your wallet, rear end in a top hat.

If you're smart, you can pierce the veil on this poo poo and see that, in a given chapter of their releases, there are x number of 1/1 creatures, and x number of 1 damage interrupts, and whatever else. But if you think it's not a balancing act largely based on illusion, you're probably assuming WotC is smarter than they really are, and that they designed something more robust than it really is.

There's like, 4 scenarios for play here.
- You are a new guy, you bought some cards from a new pack, and you want to play someone else. Anyone. They might have cards from a year ago. 2 years ago. 20. Do you know that? Do you let them play whatever they want? Have you ever heard of a Black Lotus, Fork, or Galvanized Obsidian Dildo of Torment? You're likely to be hosed down by cockmilk.

- You and your buddy are new guy(s). You buy a tandem pack. Loaded for bears you play each other using the provided decks. These decks are 85% tailored to be an interesting matchup, and 15% random cards. You draw some copies and some bullshit that you can't use. Your opponent draws a hard counter to the central theme of your deck. It could be subtle. It could just be a cheap interrupt or a monster that's immune to your horseshit. All that's still in there. The friendship ends that night amid recrimination and tears.

- You are experienced Magic rear end in a top hat who's been out of the game for a while and wants to get back in. You go to the store. You immediately realize that they're not just releasing nonstop themed sets, and have been for years, they're releasing them in *chapters* now. You buy several things to get an idea of what's up. You realize this isn't really helping you figure poo poo out. You go back to the store. New sets are *already* there. It's only been like... a month! Paralysis and despondency set in. You buy Star Realms for Android. You are much happier.

- You are current Magic player extraordinaire. You're reasonably up to date. You 'get' that you don't need to buy this season's crop of cards, because this season is similar to last season. It's just a lot more angel paintings and robots. The decks are going to be artifact heavy these days. You gear up to gently caress artifacts right in their Materia ports. You've got the cards for it, because you can reach back several seasons and find the last time they did this and be ready for *this* time. You face multiple players who are trying to run the 'gimmicks' from the current season. You win some. You lose some. The game is 'stable' from your point of view... as an expert player with no incentive to re-up.

Magic is a product thriving on the appeal of their marketing. Kind of like GW. Now, I'm *thrilled* that I can grab a couple decks designed to fight each other from the store and play a quick game with a new person and we enjoy ourselves. I'm also mildly stoked that you can tap into a variety of tournament scenes with different attributes and restrictions.

But Magic is still a game of tremendous swings of luck, and the people best equipped to manage that luck are also the ones who make the hobby a hostile environment. They're the ones who can manipulate the rarity market (even if it's just buying stuff), come to a table full of fresh faces and destroy you with cards that have no theme or logical association, except that they destroy hope and stifle virility. The smartest, most experienced players, make the game more random, because *if* you can manage to understand the landscape of cards and *if* you are aware of the 'meta' and *if* you have gotten your hands on cards that work together well as part of a plan, then the randomness, *for you* is almost non-existent.

But that just makes *you* a random predator in a sea of uneven opponents.

Compare to your typical FPS. You hop into a random game these days, expect to get hosed in the rear end by a dozen 12 year olds. They play too much, you do not, they are better than you. Hang in there for a while, and you might be lucky enough to suck less. Over time, you get into matches where, consistently, a couple people on each side are gods, a couple are either new or defective, and the rest are mediocre. The landscape of play is consistent.

The landscape of play in Magic is not consistent.

And if we're in the GW thread, and we hate how GWs 'game sucks' because 'they keep loving up armies' and 'don't care about balance', let me just say, there's more to a great game than balance and good rules. Magic is well designed. I AIN'T GON' FRONT. But, the situation that a magic player finds themselves in makes the game unbelievably hit or miss. Pretty much every time out of the gate.

Now, maybe I'm an enfranchised player at this point, or because I focus on limited - but I can't even comprehend the criticisms here. Is our hobby driving away people to its long term detriment? The growth in popularity recently is telling me no, but we don't have any way to compare to how much bigger it could possibly be if wizards did things differently so it's not much of an argument in my mind.

I can see being dismayed by the standard treadmill, or the high price of a good eternal deck, but keeping formats fresh and the clear focus they put on limited play these days are both super important for the health of the game.

What do you guys think?

# ? Mar 12, 2015 22:50

Spiderdrake: May 12, 2001

Fuzzy Mammal posted:

What do you guys think?

I think you must hate us very much to bring us this

Why Fuzzy Mammal, why? Was it the commas?

# ? Mar 12, 2015 22:59

rabidsquid: Oct 11, 2004; LOVES THE KOG

The amount of people who just play kitchen magic and don't even care about rotation or keeping up with standard is enormous. It seems unlikely to me there is a huge player base who only want to play competitively but refuse to or are unable to spend any money, but I am probably grossly underestimating nerds.

lmao at people getting driven off by running into dudes casually running Legacy decks against brand new players though.

# ? Mar 12, 2015 22:59

Zoness: Jul 24, 2011; Talk to the hand.; Grimey Drawer

Spiderdrake posted:

I think you must hate us very much to bring us this

Why Fuzzy Mammal, why? Was it the commas?

I have to admit i tried reading that as far as

quote:

- You are a new guy, you bought some cards from a new pack, and you want to play someone else. Anyone. They might have cards from a year ago. 2 years ago. 20. Do you know that? Do you let them play whatever they want? Have you ever heard of a Black Lotus, Fork, or Galvanized Obsidian Dildo of Torment? You're likely to be hosed down by cockmilk.

How far did everyone else get?

# ? Mar 12, 2015 23:02

cheetah7071: Oct 20, 2010; honk honk; College Slice

I read the whole thing, and while mtg being expensive to play is a valid concern, that's kind of laughable coming from a warhammer player and the rest of the rany demonstrates a fundamental misunderstanding of standard rotations and the strength of current hate cards.

# ? Mar 12, 2015 23:05

Irony Be My Shield: Jul 29, 2012

It seems weird to talk about Myth Realized being weak to removal because it's gotta be one of the most resilient cheap "creatures" to kill in standard. I'm still not sure if it's good in general though. It will take a good amount of time before it becomes at all worthwhile even if you're casting one noncreature per turn (admittedly good rebound spells would help here) and it's pretty godawful if you play it any time after turn one. It can also be chumped if you manage to finally get it online.

However, I think it still has some potential in Jeskai tokens, especially against slow control decks. U/B control really doesn't want to be playing expensive instant-speed hard removal against you, they won't have any blockers for it until they get Elspeth and it just becomes a nastier and nastier threat as the game goes on. If something like Artful Dodge is reprinted I can also see it being a good finisher.

# ? Mar 12, 2015 23:06

Spiderdrake: May 12, 2001

Zoness posted:

How far did everyone else get?

I got to "pierce the veil" before I realized it was one of those rants.

# ? Mar 12, 2015 23:08

rabidsquid: Oct 11, 2004; LOVES THE KOG

MTG is actually a cheaper hobby than a lot of stuff I like to do. A few hundred dollars for six months worth of entertainment seems pretty cheap to me but I also think it totally depends on perspective. If you are completely broke and only play pirated games that probably seems outrageous.

edit: also Space Barbie is super expensive so price being a knock against MTG is weird in that comparison.

rabidsquid fucked around with this message at 23:12 on Mar 12, 2015

# ? Mar 12, 2015 23:09

Sotar: Dec 1, 2009

Zoness posted:

I have to admit i tried reading that as far as

How far did everyone else get?

I actually finished the whole thing but didn't make any sense of it.

# ? Mar 12, 2015 23:11

STANKBALLS TASTYLEGS: Oct 12, 2012

Yeah, anyone who says standard is expensive, and then goes and plays warhammer, is obviously allowing the point fly over their head.

Also they obviously have never seen a RDW list. I made mine for 50.

# ? Mar 12, 2015 23:11

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# ? Jun 3, 2024 12:26

Irony Be My Shield: Jul 29, 2012

Dromoka's Command seems really good against RW. It can answer Outpost Siege/Chained to the Rocks while also countering one of their spells or killing one of their creatures.

# ? Mar 12, 2015 23:12

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Traditional Games > Magic: The Gathering: Megathread: Spoiler Argument Stadium

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