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emanresu tnuocca posted:Regardless as for MIGF's actual (asinine) point as for the disengagement effectively killing the prospects of a two state solution this is simply bullshit, the major obstacles facing any possible two state solution have always been the presence of settlers in territories with a majority palestinian population and the lack of territorial contingency between the west bank and gaza, neither of these 'parameters' have been altered by the disengagement from Gaza, if he's arguing that the two state solution is more dead now than it was in 2005 due to the Israeli citizenry being less inclined to support further withdrawals this is also bullshit cause the biggest change in Israeli perceptions ought to be attributed to the second intifada (Sharon visiting the temple mount in 2000 says hi). That's bullshit pretext and you know it. The second intifada was a deliberate provocation by Fatah to try to gain additional leverage against Barak.
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Mar 11, 2015 02:38
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Kim Jong Il posted:That's bullshit pretext and you know it. The second intifada was a deliberate provocation by Fatah to try to gain additional leverage against Barak. I think that the bloodiest conflict in the history of Israel and Palestine likely had more to it than merely 'sticking it to Barak', the line about Sharon was mostly cause Avshalom is hanging around the thread, it was still an unnecesary provocation, perhaps not more than a casus belli but that too makes it rather irresponsible, particularly considering Sharon was an atheist.
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Mar 11, 2015 11:32
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he would never do such a thing
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Mar 11, 2015 11:40
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Avshalom posted:he would never do such a thing does the lazy eye turn you on? You could drown in one while being objectified by the other.... 
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Mar 11, 2015 17:59
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emanresu tnuocca posted:particularly considering Sharon was an atheist.  For real?
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Mar 11, 2015 20:33
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SyHopeful posted:does the lazy eye turn you on? You could drown in one while being objectified by the other.... 
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Mar 11, 2015 21:55
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Mar 11, 2015 21:57
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Bear Retrieval Unit posted:
Obligatory reminder that Israel does not share America's correlation between political conservatism and religious fervor, and that Zionism started as a socialist movement.
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Mar 11, 2015 22:01
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I don't know if it's actually that different, Loq. The Republican party didn't make its unholy alliance with the Religious Right until the 70s. For instance, Richard Nixon, a man as right wing as they come, was raised Quaker (if you can believe it), but his religion barely entered into his public identity at all and there's an ongoing debate over how observant he was (many of the Quakers I've know are all too happy to disown him). Plenty of American conservatives to this day, particularly in the money wing of the party, aren't very religious. There's even groups like the Randists who are explicitly Atheist. American conservatives may thump the Bible when it's convenient, and their voter base certainly has more fundamentalists, but in my experience, the average Republican elected official really isn't that much more religious than the average Democrat. The Israeli right wing actually seems to have a somewhat analogous relationship with their religious right in that the mainstream elements use the support of groups like the Haredim -- groups they may not actually have that much in common with -- to bolster their legitimacy as defenders of the Jewish State much the same way Republicans trumpet Christian values. Your comment about socialism being a much bigger factor in Israel is right on though.
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Mar 11, 2015 22:45
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Bear Retrieval Unit posted:
He was obviously a secular jew who didn't observe almost any of the Mitzvahs, whether he was a dawkins atheist, more agnostic or if he actually did believe in the jewish god but thought that nothing short of the "Israel is for jews" crap matters I don't really know, he paid lip service to zionist biblicisms and the such like many Israeli prime ministers do, even though they were all secular and most likely somewhere on the atheist/agnostic scale, who knows, he certainly didn't go to visit the temple mount on account of being a True Believer.
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Mar 11, 2015 23:41
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You don't have to be rigidly orthodox to consider the Temple Mount a sacred site. Every Jew has a right to visit it, just like Muslims and Christians do.
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Mar 11, 2015 23:46
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What about atheists? I don't really care who visits that hill or doesn't, I think though that a high profile politician, particularly one such as Sharon who's shown he had some measure of long term vision and restraint (during his latter years of course) should avoid unnecessary provocations.
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Mar 11, 2015 23:54
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An atheist Jew is still a Jew.
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Mar 11, 2015 23:55
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Avshalom posted:An atheist Jew is still a Jew. But are they jewish.
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Mar 12, 2015 00:51
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Avshalom posted:An atheist Jew is still a Jew. Only cause he's labeled as such by others, to quote Sarah Silverman, I only consider myself jewish in the sense that it oozes from my pores.
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Mar 12, 2015 01:11
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loquacius posted:Obligatory reminder that Israel does not share America's correlation between political conservatism and religious fervor, and that Zionism started as a socialist movement. Early Zionizm what what passes for Zionizm today are entirely different things. And while Israeli candidates don't have to say "god bless Israel" at the end of every speech to pay lip service, an openly atheist candidate would get an unbelievable amount of poo poo from almost the entire right wing and a significant part of the  center be it the Haredi parties, the settlers, or just traditional people. I found the claim that Sharon being was atheist so surprising because I don't remember anything like that happening.
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Mar 12, 2015 07:21
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My Ariel was not an atheist. He was a man of the Lord, and the Lord smiled on him until he inevitably had to fall back into the Plan.
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Mar 12, 2015 07:57
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Bear Retrieval Unit posted:Early Zionizm what what passes for Zionizm today are entirely different things. And while Israeli candidates don't have to say "god bless Israel" at the end of every speech to pay lip service, an openly atheist candidate would get an unbelievable amount of poo poo from almost the entire right wing and a significant part of the I'm not that sure about that, Barak is clearly an atheist, Ben Gurion was one too, as I said maybe they were agnostic on some level but no Israeli prime minister to date was a religious person, not religious in the sense of being an observant Jew like say Naftali Bennett but also not religious in the sense of having strong religious beliefs a-la George W. Bush, splitting hairs irt to their exact stance concerning the almighty we could perhaps argue about this but they were all clearly secular, didn't observe the sabbath (most important Mitzvah) and the such, if you want to consider them as existing in the twilight zone of 'not actually practicing jew but having strong jewish superstitions' and it makes a difference for you what can I say, I tend to view most secular jews as atheistic/agnostic on some level. I think we can both agree that Arik didn't ascend the temple mount due to his own personal religious zeal.
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Mar 12, 2015 08:42
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Avshalom posted:My Ariel was not an atheist. He was a man of the Lord, and the Lord smiled on him until he inevitably had to fall back into the Plan. Noo what happened to your av.
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Mar 12, 2015 15:07
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emanresu tnuocca posted:Only cause he's labeled as such by others, to quote Sarah Silverman, I only consider myself jewish in the sense that it oozes from my pores. Like sweat? I had a wisecrack about hygiene but it sounded bad.
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Mar 12, 2015 16:31
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emanresu tnuocca posted:I'm not that sure about that, Barak is clearly an atheist, Ben Gurion was one too, as I said maybe they were agnostic on some level but no Israeli prime minister to date was a religious person, not religious in the sense of being an observant Jew like say Naftali Bennett but also not religious in the sense of having strong religious beliefs a-la George W. Bush, splitting hairs irt to their exact stance concerning the almighty we could perhaps argue about this but they were all clearly secular, didn't observe the sabbath (most important Mitzvah) and the such, if you want to consider them as existing in the twilight zone of 'not actually practicing jew but having strong jewish superstitions' and it makes a difference for you what can I say, I tend to view most secular jews as atheistic/agnostic on some level. I think we can both agree that Arik didn't ascend the temple mount due to his own personal religious zeal. The way it feels to me at least is that while it doesn't really matter in practice, people still make the distinction between not religious and flat out atheist. Can't really explain it, I guess it's some kind of "out of sight out of mind" thing. I really don't think a candidate who'd openly declare he doesn't believe in a god won't get a bunch of his opponents shouting about what a bad Jew he is and how better they are at Judaism than him.
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Mar 12, 2015 21:00
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gently caress You And Diebold posted:Noo what happened to your av.  i don't even know what this thing isi asked in another thread and they were like "it's gotenks????" like i'm an idiot but what the gently caress is a gotenk and how does it apply to me i want arik back, both in my avatar and in real life
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Mar 12, 2015 22:58
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oh well, guess i'll just have to get banned
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Mar 12, 2015 22:59
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I'm here for you, man. You deserve this much for your valiant attempts at Arikporn.
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Mar 12, 2015 23:09
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i dream of his fat ghost cock plumbing the depths of my earthen core
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Mar 12, 2015 23:13
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You are a funny guy.
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Mar 12, 2015 23:14
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hahaha yaaaaay
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Mar 12, 2015 23:14
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this is the best friday the 13th of my life
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Mar 12, 2015 23:14
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Avshalom posted:i don't know  av as well. How the hell have you never watched DBZ, I thought everyone ever watched DBZ at one point or another.E: Huh, looks like it's already changed.  Actual news, to make this a relevant post: http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/03/12/us-israel-election-idUSKBN0M80ZB20150312 It looks like Netanyahu's little gamble in the US may have actually backfired on him, and Netanyahu may not be prime minister very soon: quote:Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu launched a last-minute media blitz on Thursday to counter what appears to be a rising tide of support for his main opponent in next week's election, the centrist Zionist Union. Also, I don't have an intrinsically negative reaction to Herzog's name like I do to Netanyahu's. Is my gut feeling of non-hatred correct/justifiable, or do I just not know enough about Herzog to start hating him yet? fade5 fucked around with this message at 23:38 on Mar 12, 2015 |
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Mar 12, 2015 23:21
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Some of it is just get out the vote scaremongering (because Netanyahu is all about generating fear in general), some of it is that the polls for Israeli elections have been historically bad. No polls picked up how strong Yesh Atid was going to be last election for example. If the polls are correct, as it stands right now Moshe Kahlon will basically be able to decide who gets to be Prime Minister, assuming Rivlin doesn't encourage a unity government. Herzog's biggest draw right now is that his name isn't Netanyahu.
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Mar 12, 2015 23:31
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Lum_ posted:I'm here for you, man. You deserve this much for your valiant attempts at Arikporn. Look at this upstanding person, you have done the world a service this day.
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Mar 12, 2015 23:40
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latest handicapping (from the last polls taken): Required to form government: 61 Zionist Union: 24 Likud: 21 Right wing: Habayit Hayahudi: 11 Will support Likud (or themselves, if Likud completely melts down) Yisrael Beitenu: 5 Was seen before as a possible member of a left wing coalition, but the past few weeks Liberman has been doubling down on the racist foaming at the mouth so it's really unlikely. Could miss getting in the Knesset. Haredi parties: Shas: 8 UTJ: 6 Yahad: 4 These parties lean right and in any event will never sit in a government with Yesh Atid, so at this point can go into the right wing column since Zionist Union needs Yesh Atid's votes to get in. Yahad possibly may not make the Knesset, and will not join a left wing list in any case. Left wing: Joint Arab List: 13 Has said they will not join either Zionist Union or Likud in forming a government. Most paths to Herzog being PM require them to go back on that. Meretz: 4 REALLY close to not making the next Knesset, which will hurt the left's chances badly. Center: Yesh Atid: 12 Will most likely support Zionist Union (if Lapid joins a right wing or unity government anyway, expect tons of table-flipping from everyone) Kulanu: 10 Will support whoever makes Kahlon finance minister Assuming the polls are correct, Zionist Union could get in with support of Yesh Atid, Meretz, the Arab List, and Kulanu. That puts them at 63 seats. The wild card here is that this requires bringing the Arab List formally into the government which is probably not a line a coalition with the word "Zionist" in the name can cross. However, there isn't another path to making Herzog PM. So we could see some very interesting days. The most likely coalition is Likud - Habayit Hayahudi - Lieberman - the Haredi parties - Kulanu which puts the Right at 65 seats. It would also be a coalition so hard right that Netanyahu would be the crazy moderate. If Likud melts down below 20 seats, all bets are off. If a lot of the smaller parties miss getting into the Knesset and thus make other factions larger (Arab List, etc) all bets are off. Basically, until next week, the only thing we know for sure is that Moshe Kahlon will be Israel's next Finance Minister. Another interesting possibility is if Netanyahu does again form a mega-coalition with Zionist List, the largest opposition party then becomes leader of the opposition. That would be the Arab List. This means that Netanyahu would have to officially consult with Ayman Odeh before invading Gaza. That will be fun. Lum_ fucked around with this message at 00:01 on Mar 13, 2015 |
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Mar 12, 2015 23:46
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every post i make brings me joy. i vow to redouble my posting rate from now on.
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Mar 13, 2015 00:12
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fade5 posted:It looks like Netanyahu's little gamble in the US may have actually backfired on him, and Netanyahu may not be prime minister very soon: Zionist Camp always had a couple of seats advantage over Likud since polling started, it was even greater for a few weeks before Bennett self imploded by showing that his party is still largely racist toward Mizrahi Jews. Herzog pretty much a complete nobody who's been in Avoda forever and largely don't nothing of note, he managed to win the Avoda primaries to the surprise of many who expected Shelly Yehimovitch to be the party's chairperson, his appeal right now is simply that he is not Bibi, that's really about it. Odds really are against him being PM though so it doesn't really matter.
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Mar 13, 2015 00:58
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Was that John Oliver thing where Herzog hired a voice actor to dub over himself real?
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Mar 13, 2015 01:01
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fade5 posted:Also, I don't have an intrinsically negative reaction to Herzog's name like I do to Netanyahu's. Is my gut feeling of non-hatred correct/justifiable, or do I just not know enough about Herzog to start hating him yet? Lum_ posted:Herzog's biggest draw right now is that his name isn't Netanyahu. Herzog's name reminds me of Werner Herzog and Herzog Zwei.
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Mar 13, 2015 01:03
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Hmm I just looked it up and it looks like it was an intentional stunt of sorts, he even references the voice change in that video, it's seems like it's meant to mock the notion that Netanyahu is worthy of being a PM on account of being a good orator or something. Kinda stupid, but it looks like "Last Week Tonight" kinda didn't get the ad.
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Mar 13, 2015 01:06
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Does the biggest winner automatically get the first shot to form a government?
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Mar 13, 2015 01:07
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No. The one most MKs (represented by the chairmen of their parties) recommend to the president gets first try.
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Mar 13, 2015 01:08
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netanyahu has a small, blunt and hairless penis
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Mar 13, 2015 01:09
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