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Patrat posted:Dragon Vortex was crazy good and did kind of make all armies not lead by sufficient DBs to shield them just die... That said it was cool to play a DB with solars, be obviously the underdog, then when poo poo got real just turn around and melt a city to the bedrock. With the new Supernal mechanics, assuming Dragon-Blooded also get it of course, it is now possible to start with Defense-From-Anathema Method or Dragon Vortex Attack. ... Me Likey.
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Mar 12, 2015 00:34
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I wouldn't be surprised if no other kind of Exalt got supernal abilities.Transient People posted:'Lone hero beats great beast' is not in theme for mythical fantasy No, the idea of some rock paper scissors situation in which each of those combat strategies is particularly suited to defeating the next is not in theme for mythical fantasy. Nor is it something that emerges from the game mechanics. Really the idea of a lone combatant throwing down with their enemy's pet is puzzling on its face because what's really dangerous about a character like that is you have to fight a t-rex and a Solar, not a t-rex instead of a Solar.
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Mar 12, 2015 00:40
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Chernobyl Peace Prize posted:Can you address the part of his post about you being explicitly wrong, ever I would if talking to Ferrinus was a more worthwhile endeavor than just doing anything else at all. He's not conducive to meaningful discussion. I could talk to you for pages on end but he's a waste of my time.
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Mar 12, 2015 00:52
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Transient People posted:I would if talking to Ferrinus was a more worthwhile endeavor than just doing anything else at all. He's not conducive to meaningful discussion. I could talk to you for pages on end but he's a waste of my time. It's only a waste of time because you keep acting like you understand the rules at all but it turns out, every time, that you're wrong and stupid!! Fuuuckk!!!
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Mar 12, 2015 00:58
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Transient People posted:I would if talking to Ferrinus was a more worthwhile endeavor than just doing anything else at all. He's not conducive to meaningful discussion. I could talk to you for pages on end but he's a waste of my time. I just don't get why you're constantly affecting some kind of penetrating system mastery when you're always, always wrong. Like, every time. Every drat time! How can you keep doing this?
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Mar 12, 2015 00:58
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Transient People posted:I would if talking to Ferrinus was a more worthwhile endeavor than just doing anything else at all. He's not conducive to meaningful discussion. I could talk to you for pages on end but he's a waste of my time. I see we've entered the Realm of Forms, and here presents itself: Irony
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Mar 12, 2015 01:01
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Ferrinus posted:I just don't get why you're constantly affecting some kind of penetrating system mastery when you're always, always wrong. Because we're all lazy and complacent, because we want to have fun instead of understanding Exalted's intricate metagame. Do you not understand how we're all dogs compared to his understanding?
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Mar 12, 2015 01:09
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Does Graceful Crane Stance allow you to do things like stand on your eagle familiar's head and perfectly balance, so when your eagle swoops down you can lance them, despite being too big to actually ride your eagle normally? Edit: better question, does Graceful Crane Stance allow me to run through a flock of crows/pigeons/seagulls/whatever flocks, so I can stab someone who is flying and/or board an airship? KittyEmpress fucked around with this message at 01:22 on Mar 12, 2015 |
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Mar 12, 2015 01:20
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Patrat posted:It is definitely a Thing, the shittier armies are, the less important everything other than being personally being an unstoppable kung fu demigod finds itself. You have to remember that in 2nd edition mass combat units do not exist on their own, they're basically there to act as power armour for special characters. The opponent you're facing isn't a lot of the generic warrior guys, it's the most experienced Exalted general 9either Dragonblooded or Celestial) in the country who's leading them. You're fighting that dude while they get a load of bonuses from wearing the troops like a warstrider (although the commander could ALSO be in a warstrider too). If you're taking him on in melee and he's in charge of a massive legion of all the elite Haslanti units then he'll be adding 9 to 12 auto successes to every single attack, taking your DV effectively down into the high single figures at best, possibly mid single figures. Not only that but he'll have health track after health track due to Magnitude so I hope you have a lot of Essence and a way to regenerate it or a way to do massive overwhelming damage very quickly (and make sure it hits). That's without forgetting to mention that his damage ping is equal to magnitude so if you get hit at any point before you've absolutely trashed the army by taking off a load of health tracks, you're taking a good deal of damage. Then there's the special characters which will be embedded the unit. While you're fighting the powerful commander with all the bonuses form leading a unit, you'll also have 9 of the other most potent guys in the kingdom (other Exalts, summoned demons,, God-blooded, heroic mortal sorcerors and martial artists, etc) making attacks at you constantly which could be something as simple as firing a bow all the way up to area attack sorcery or powerful charms. I mean yeah, it's possible to fight and win, but it's not exactly the same as singlehandedly fighting a load of mooks while being in no danger and if the special units and especially the commander are solid then I'd give them the better odds.
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Mar 12, 2015 01:22
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KittyEmpress posted:But can I make an army of eagles, genetically enhance my dragonblooded to have wings, and have flaming war eagles, enhanced by my war and survival charms and my dragonblooded commanders? Exalted2e.txt
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Mar 12, 2015 01:59
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Yessss, Mr. Solar. Manipulate the very heritage and bodies of the Chosen of the Dragons! It's for the greater good, after all...
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Mar 12, 2015 02:46
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Nessus posted:Yessss, Mr. Solar. Manipulate the very heritage and bodies of the Chosen of the Dragons! It's for the greater good, after all... Look, if I can't play a megalomaniac who thinks she knows best and is warping other people against her will so that they'd be better, why am I even playing? I want to stamp out people's cultures under the guise of 'improving' them, I want to draft children into tiger warrior training to turn all young men and women into master warriors by the time they can color inside the lines. I love morally corrupt characters, basically.
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Mar 12, 2015 02:49
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War is a really efficient charmset, partially because it's so small. But even just the basic training charms let you get a really impressive doomsquad really fast. Ferrinus posted:What's hosed up is that an Appearance-based command roll represents leading from the front and charging boldly ahead, but you can't flurry the command action, so I guess you just kind of run at the enemy but stop short and hope that your soldiers overtake you when their tick rolls around. Obviously you can't pose dramatically and fight at the same time. e: not sarcasm
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Mar 12, 2015 02:52
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DOCTOR ZIMBARDO posted:War is a really efficient charmset, partially because it's so small. But even just the basic training charms let you get a really impressive doomsquad really fast.  You're ridiculous.
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Mar 12, 2015 03:20
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I think that's one thing I really like about exalted, continuing from earlier - it gives you massive power, and fully expects and encourages you to be a power mad douche with it. Nothing can take it away. There's no real higher power that can come down and smite you for abusing it. It's part of why I dislike the people who during 2e wanted to wash away the whole 'solar exalted can be morally corrupt' and wanted to turn them into literal paladins who had to be good people to get their power. I can understand that evil solars can be a little overplayed, but well meaning but not quite understanding ones, who think that since they do know best, everyone should follow what they want? That's so much fun to me. I dunno. I do hope 3e stays away from like 'all first age solars literally ate babies' level evil though. Same with elder lunars all being baby eating rapists. People can be power mad without literally twirling an evil mustache.
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Mar 12, 2015 05:25
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KittyEmpress posted:I think that's one thing I really like about exalted, continuing from earlier - it gives you massive power, and fully expects and encourages you to be a power mad douche with it. Nothing can take it away. There's no real higher power that can come down and smite you for abusing it. It's part of why I dislike the people who during 2e wanted to wash away the whole 'solar exalted can be morally corrupt' and wanted to turn them into literal paladins who had to be good people to get their power. Now of course that doesn't mean they WILL. Or that the people who get a "bad guy" tag don't largely or entirely deserve it. As far as Lunars, I thought there were at least a few good/goodish signature ones. It's just that Gerd Marrow-eater's nationbuilding and sensible presentation of himself doesn't stick in the mind like Raksi or Ma-ha-Suchi.
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Mar 12, 2015 07:46
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Nessus posted:What I think is interesting and is kind of the issue is: It may be impossible for Solars to become "morally corrupt," because they are able to define morality. They can muck with your heads and the whole "Creature of Darkness" title is (or was) explicitly rooted in "a list the U.S. keeps" rather than "moral sinfulness." Yeah this is entirely what I like about it though. Ones who abuse their power and authority to do poo poo. I don't want 'evil Solars' to mean 'snidely whiplash working his slaves to death to make a machine to blow up the world!' I loving love the idea of First Age Solars as presented in 2e, if only they didn't go so far as to make the few explicit ones they talked about even worse. Like, the Twilight who makes every single human in her nation undergo incredibly painful mutation processes at birth, making them able to live on basically no food or water and stronger, smarter, etc than normal. To her, she is uplifting these mortals. They can now fly! They never need to fear starvation, dehydration, they can never suffocate! They are smarter, faster, stronger than ever before! She's doing wonderful work and making these mortals better. But to the mortals, she's kidnapping their children and returning little monsters. She's making an entire nation that every other nation fears and resents. Or like the Eclipse who uses his solar magic to make a literal utopia, brainwashing the criminal or malcontent or even just people who don't love it into loving it. There is no crime, there is no poverty, nothing goes wrong, everyone is happy, it is the nicest place to live. But to the people living there? If you're ever unhappy, if you ever question anything, you will be brainwashed and made to be happy with it. You have no freedom beyond what is allowed to you. Or the Solar who Exalted and wanted to make his nation better, so he went through the process of improving it in basic ways, getting more power, and then oh, turning every member of every kingdom that had ever hosed with his home into creature's of darkness, unable to walk in the light of the sun, burned and scorched at by the light's rays, by virtue of a petty war 300 years ago. These are the ones I like! I don't want 'twilight tests mote splitting bomb on town of mortals without a care, killing tens of thousands', meanwhile. I think there's an important balance in my own joy at Exalted. But it's part of why I love asking the weird questions about if I can answer a flaw in something with an answer that no one would need. I feel like the best Exalted games I've played in have had everyone take the mindset of 'why would I choose the easiest answer, when I can choose the coolest?' A mortal army is weak and boring? I'm not gonna go learn to train them and use tiger warrior training to make my ultra squad. gently caress that, I'm gonna go tame a thousand eagles. But wait, now that I have a thousand eagle army, I can't use dragonblooded. I know, I will graft wings onto their body, so they can lead my eagle army. I'm going to choose the solution that is the most excessively stupid. And probably stunt a lot of posing inbetween this stupidity. But I do understand that kind of stuff isn't for everyone.
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Mar 12, 2015 10:04
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team overhead smash posted:
That gets even better. If its Dragonblooded with War charms they are ALSO attacking with the army bonuses. In fact should you be lucky enough to kill the general Dragonblooded lieutenants could re-rally the army and you'd have to go through all of those assholes too.
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Mar 12, 2015 10:14
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The Bronze Faction did nothing wrong.
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Mar 12, 2015 10:35
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firedust can't melt orichalcum beams
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Mar 12, 2015 13:42
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Rakan Thulio End The Salt Rate Kill Your Parents
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Mar 12, 2015 15:58
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Kickstarter Email posted:Here is the link to your Exalted 3rd Edition Fiction Anthology: Tales From the Age of Sorrows PDF, as per the Stretch Goal you helped us achieve: I'm at work, so I can't read it. e: drat the man, I'll read what I want. Here's the Table of Contents: quote:The Maiden’s Kiss — Tim Pratt p4 bartkusa fucked around with this message at 01:13 on Mar 13, 2015 |
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Mar 12, 2015 23:48
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Ronwayne posted:The Bronze Faction did nothing wrong. This is also why I think Limit Breaks However, let's change the paradigm, and make the Great Curse work by dangling incentives in front of players. Oh, sure, you don't have to act like a complete rear end in a top hat. Nobody's saying that, Mr. Solar. But, hey, maybe if you act like an rear end in a top hat ~just this once~ you can reap the mechanical reward and use it to do what you really want to. No real pressure to act like an rear end in a top hat again...until things get difficult. Or you figure it's worth the tradeoff. Or hey, you were already gonna act kind of like an rear end in a top hat anyway, might as well step it up to the point where you get a reward for doing more or less what you were going to anyway. And wow, look at how effective being an rear end in a top hat can be! Is it REALLY so bad to be an rear end in a top hat a little more often if it gives you such an edge? And just like that, players unwittingly (or wittingly) re-enact, IC and OOC, the entire conceit of the Great Curse. It's not the Primordials yelling NO FUN ALLOWED if the number gets too high, it's becoming inured to the consequences of your actions, and slowly going "Ehh, gently caress it" - if you even realize it's happening.
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Mar 13, 2015 01:34
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Daeren posted:And just like that, players unwittingly (or wittingly) re-enact, IC and OOC, the entire conceit of the Great Curse. It's not the Primordials yelling NO FUN ALLOWED if the number gets too high, it's becoming inured to the consequences of your actions, and slowly going "Ehh, gently caress it" - if you even realize it's happening. And you make it all happen without any lovely mechanics that take away control of your character! Because seriously who the gently caress ever thinks that's a good idea?
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Mar 13, 2015 01:43
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You'd probably still need a stick to go with that carrot. In my experience, players aren't going to be willing to risk their character's reputation or objectives for a minor or short term bonus, even if RP says they should. Something like FATE compels might work though.
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Mar 13, 2015 01:51
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I feel like limit breaks could work really well if they imposed a nWoD-esque Condition that rewarded you with a Solar XP if you resolved it immediately or rewarded you a Solar XP for each session that it continues. That would incentivize playing out your character's descent into madness, but doesn't force it on you if you don't want it.
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Mar 13, 2015 01:51
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fool_of_sound posted:You'd probably still need a stick to go with that carrot. In my experience, players aren't going to be willing to risk their character's reputation or objectives for a minor or short term bonus, even if RP says they should. Something like FATE compels might work though.
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Mar 13, 2015 01:56
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Nessus posted:Frame it as some kind of super cool Heroic Bonus and just have the writeup be like, "this is sort of, you know, classical Greek heroism, don't feel like you're limited to using it to save kittens and ensure nobody ever dies, you know? Do great things!" Yeah, kill your dad, marry your mum, kill your children in a fit of divine madness, scratch out your eyes, betray your fiance and get a genocidal war called down upon your city, that sort of thing.
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Mar 13, 2015 02:31
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The great curse is just ultraviolent day-time TV.
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Mar 13, 2015 02:37
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thatbastardken posted:Yeah, kill your dad, marry your mum, kill your children in a fit of divine madness, scratch out your eyes, betray your fiance and get a genocidal war called down upon your city, that sort of thing. Betraying a Lunar, obviously, goes without saying.
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Mar 13, 2015 02:42
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Spousal abuse is low to zero risk. We Dessus now.
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Mar 13, 2015 04:47
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fool_of_sound posted:You'd probably still need a stick to go with that carrot. In my experience, players aren't going to be willing to risk their character's reputation or objectives for a minor or short term bonus, even if RP says they should. Something like FATE compels might work though. Well, if they don't want to take the risk... let them not take the risk. The point is that it should be a temptation, nothing forcing them, so that if they really do go down that road, it was them that fell, not just nebulous magics that forced them to be a jackass. Frankly, making it "MAGIC FORCES YOU TO BECOME CORRUPTED!" makes it lose a lot of its impact compared to if it was just plain human hubris and greed. I mean, if corruption and downfall are just a grinding inevitability then it starts to slide into WH40k levels of grimdarkness where it just makes you roll your eyes at the whole deal, rather than biting your lip as you nervously wonder whether the protagonist is going to resist temptation or give in. Grabbing the carrot means some sort of permanent consequence, even if just to the character's reputation, and sure, a player who's just weighing pros and cons, min/maxing, will definitely not exchange that for a temporary boost, but I'm going to argue that if you've got that sort of player, then it's a lost cause anyway. Then he's just in it for the numbers, and no amount of sticks will eventually beat him into becoming a better roleplayer. Meanwhile, players who're not just in it for the numbers, but somewhat inexperienced, might be tempted to experiment a bit with roleplaying, rather than just treating it like a cRPG, if there's a carrot, like stunt bonuses.
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Mar 13, 2015 06:01
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My favorite description of the Great Curse in 3E is the description tucked away somewhere in one of the early chapters of what it feels like to be a Solar - how the experience of someone who's surging with Solar essence is different from that of someone who isn't. And what Solar essence does is, it fills you with energy and drive. You always feel like you should be doing or accomplishing something. It's always showtime. (Presumably, and possibly explicitly, other Exaltations or states of divinity come with their own flavors of experience) Ideally, that would've been tied into Limit somehow rather than just the "whatever, pick something" Limit Break mechanics we got. Those are pretty phoned-in.
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Mar 13, 2015 06:04
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PurpleXVI posted:Well, if they don't want to take the risk... let them not take the risk. The point is that it should be a temptation, nothing forcing them, so that if they really do go down that road, it was them that fell, not just nebulous magics that forced them to be a jackass. Frankly, making it "MAGIC FORCES YOU TO BECOME CORRUPTED!" makes it lose a lot of its impact compared to if it was just plain human hubris and greed. Ooor, you could do exactly what works well in FATE; a noticeable but temporary punishment if you refuse your temptation, and a noticeable but temporary reward if you submit. The Solar uses the human brain in the robot and gains a Solar XP (or several, for something big) and regains some Essence/Willpower, but has to deal with the consequences, or else resists the urge to do so at the cost of some Wssence and Willpower (and the foregone Solar XP), but avoids that story consequence. Suddenly there's a tradeoff, even for players who do naturally want to take fairly optimal actions. I've GMed for a lot of people, and in my experience it's a fairly rare and special player who will knowingly make lovely choices in the name of character growth, and worse, other players often resent them doing so. Giving players a mechanical bonus for roleplaying their character's flaws is a good thing, but simply allowing them to ignore said flaws when they feel the tradeoff is too great (regardless of how their character might react) cheapens the flaws and means players never really have to deal with RP consequences. Do you think Compels in FATE are unfair to players because they are punished if they choose to buy them off?
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Mar 13, 2015 06:16
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fool_of_sound posted:Ooor, you could do exactly what works well in FATE; a noticeable but temporary punishment if you refuse your temptation, and a noticeable but temporary reward if you submit. The Solar uses the human brain in the robot and gains a Solar XP (or several, for something big) and regains some Essence/Willpower, but has to deal with the consequences, or else resists the urge to do so at the cost of some Wssence and Willpower (and the foregone Solar XP), but avoids that story consequence. Suddenly there's a tradeoff, even for players who do naturally want to take fairly optimal actions. I've GMed for a lot of people, and in my experience it's a fairly rare and special player who will knowingly make lovely choices in the name of character growth, and worse, other players often resent them doing so. Giving players a mechanical bonus for roleplaying their character's flaws is a good thing, but simply allowing them to ignore said flaws when they feel the tradeoff is too great (regardless of how their character might react) cheapens the flaws and means players never really have to deal with RP consequences. I never said "unfair," I said "a bad mechanic." Rather than "compelling" players, or forcing them to do things, why not sit down before the game starts and work out what you want for the game. Talk with the player about how you feel the Great Curse/Limit Breaks work/should work, and how he feels, then come to a compromise, and integrate it into the character's personality, rather than having him make a character and then kicking him in the head with the mechanics until he plays like you want. If you feel your players are focusing more on numbers than roleplaying, why not talk with them about it? Make sure that you agree on how the game should work... and consider why your GM'ing style might make them wary of abandoning boosts and bonuses in favour of having fun. Maybe they're paranoid that you're going to sideswipe them with the full force of the system and want to be able to react to it without a total TPK or just being your puppets? It might be unwarranted, but maybe you should assure them that it's not an issue. This whole "we have to beat them with the rules until they learn to have the right kind of fun"-thing just feels childish and passive-aggressive, really.
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Mar 13, 2015 06:34
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PurpleXVI posted:I never said "unfair," I said "a bad mechanic." Rather than "compelling" players, or forcing them to do things, why not sit down before the game starts and work out what you want for the game. Talk with the player about how you feel the Great Curse/Limit Breaks work/should work, and how he feels, then come to a compromise, and integrate it into the character's personality, rather than having him make a character and then kicking him in the head with the mechanics until he plays like you want. I'm not sure where you're getting 'forcing' players to do things from making them choose between accepting a complication and receiving a reward, or taking refusing the complication and taking a small penalty. It's a risk/reward scenario, and you're choosing instead to focus on the terminology used by a particular system. How is it less appealing to players to to say 'here are the mechanical costs/benefits of your choices; you may choose freely with no preference from me' vs 'well, you can make poor choices if you feel like it, but I will be disappointed in you if you don't'. PurpleXVI posted:If you feel your players are focusing more on numbers than roleplaying, why not talk with them about it? Make sure that you agree on how the game should work... and consider why your GM'ing style might make them wary of abandoning boosts and bonuses in favour of having fun. Maybe they're paranoid that you're going to sideswipe them with the full force of the system and want to be able to react to it without a total TPK or just being your puppets? It might be unwarranted, but maybe you should assure them that it's not an issue. This whole "we have to beat them with the rules until they learn to have the right kind of fun"-thing just feels childish and passive-aggressive, really. This whole "we have to beat them with the rules until they learn to have the right kind of fun"-thing just feels childish and passive-aggressive, really. Please gently caress off with your patronizing bullshit, actually. 'Well, you might just be a lovely GM' is one of the worst and most obnoxious arguments you can make. Players prefer to take 'good' choices because tabletop game because players like to succeed. Success in games is fun, failure is frustrating. Using character elements to introduce new challenges is just an organic way of bringing complications into play. e: I think you're getting hung up on the word 'optimal', much like you've gotten hung up on the word 'compel'. Replace them with 'positive' or 'good' or 'most obviously beneficial' and 'risk/reward' or similar. poo poo. fool of sound fucked around with this message at 07:02 on Mar 13, 2015 |
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Mar 13, 2015 06:58
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PurpleXVI posted:I never said "unfair," I said "a bad mechanic." Rather than "compelling" players, or forcing them to do things, why not sit down before the game starts and work out what you want for the game. Talk with the player about how you feel the Great Curse/Limit Breaks work/should work, and how he feels, then come to a compromise, and integrate it into the character's personality, rather than having him make a character and then kicking him in the head with the mechanics until he plays like you want. I agree. I think the best implementations of a Great Curse system involve it being done in a game-by-game or even a character-by-character basis. Like, in the Abyssals game we have here, I really want my character venting Resonance in big blasts to be a thing, so I am always asking "do I gain resonance for X" and as a result combined with a brazen disregard for most of the rules for serving the Neverborn I think I have gained more resonance than everyone else combined. If I were to do the "Great Curse" (I prefer it being either inherent to the Solar Exaltation or it being unexplained/disputed whether it's a curse or not) I'd probably ask each player what heroic character trait or classical virtue they tend to take too far. Hercules is unbelievably brave and is willing to fight deities and abstract concepts and literally invincible beings but he is very much a GETS MAD fighter and will go all-out on an extremely important mortal who pisses him off despite the fact that he'll easily kill the guy. Or maybe you have a different type of character who is a kung-fu monk and gets really offended when people engage in pointless indulgences, or maybe your character is an ambitious crafter/planner/schemer but sometimes they get this feeling that "okay this plan sounds crazy but I swear it will solve everything and I'm going to bet everything on it." Or maybe you have a social character who is convinced they are so smooth they can manipulate/suck up to ANYONE and will try and run a game on a Deathlord with no escape route. And you get a reward when you say you want to have fun and take a risk due to playing your type; I think adding to a group XP pool is best because that way other players will learn not to resent you for taking a big risk. Probably the only objection people would have to this is that they'd say "But how would this lead to the Usurpation?" And I'd say, "Well, put people who are tempted to overestimate themselves/over-react/enact absurdly ambitious plans/moralize angrily about indiscretions, et cetera, literally in charge of running an undisputed global empire."
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Mar 13, 2015 07:07
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MiltonSlavemasta posted:I think adding to a group XP pool is best because that way other players will learn not to resent you for taking a big risk. This is a clever idea, actually. Though I still think you need something to fool of sound fucked around with this message at 07:11 on Mar 13, 2015 |
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Mar 13, 2015 07:08
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Ferrinus posted:My favorite description of the Great Curse in 3E is the description tucked away somewhere in one of the early chapters of what it feels like to be a Solar - how the experience of someone who's surging with Solar essence is different from that of someone who isn't. And what Solar essence does is, it fills you with energy and drive. You always feel like you should be doing or accomplishing something. It's always showtime. (Presumably, and possibly explicitly, other Exaltations or states of divinity come with their own flavors of experience)
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Mar 13, 2015 07:09
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Ferrinus posted:My favorite description of the Great Curse in 3E is the description tucked away somewhere in one of the early chapters of what it feels like to be a Solar - how the experience of someone who's surging with Solar essence is different from that of someone who isn't. And what Solar essence does is, it fills you with energy and drive. You always feel like you should be doing or accomplishing something. It's always showtime. (Presumably, and possibly explicitly, other Exaltations or states of divinity come with their own flavors of experience)
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Mar 13, 2015 07:12
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