USPol March presents the 8th Annual Debt Limit Fight: Fracas in the Caucus

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Debate & Discussion > USPol March presents the 8th Annual Debt Limit Fight: Fracas in the Caucus

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Trabisnikof: Dec 24, 2005

Amergin posted:

~60,000 emails turned over

Out of ~1 billion emails estimated to have been sent/received.

But let's not have facts get in the way.

Where did you get the "Hilary sent and received a BILLION emails in 4 years" nonsense. That's a good one for the crazy political email forwards thread.

# ? Mar 13, 2015 15:34

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# ? Jun 11, 2024 03:50

FlamingLiberal: Jan 18, 2009; Would you like to play a game?

Why are you even taking Amergin's bait

# ? Mar 13, 2015 15:35

Trabisnikof: Dec 24, 2005

FlamingLiberal posted:

Why are you even taking Amergin's bait

Because normally he posts smug but hard to dispute conservative witticisms, while this is just wrong.

# ? Mar 13, 2015 15:36

The Larch: Jan 14, 2015; by FactsAreUseless

Trabisnikof posted:

Where did you get the "Hilary sent and received a BILLION emails in 4 years" nonsense. That's a good one for the crazy political email forwards thread.

From the right-wing forums he trolls by copy and pasting D&D posts to.

# ? Mar 13, 2015 15:37

VitalSigns: Sep 3, 2011

Amergin posted:

For one thing, you have essentially a four year period where your Sec. of State's correspondence is gone, purged from the record books. Historians, following SoS's and other future leaders won't have any traces of what Hillary did as SoS. It also sets a bad precedent, especially if she ends up winning the POTUS despite this.

For another, it's not so much of "problems that people fear" so much as yet another example of the Dem party trying to make itself the party of "transparency" and then going in the exact opposite loving direction. Not to mention yet another example of the Clintons basically not giving a gently caress about transparency or laws affecting them.

It's also a great exercise in seeing how much liberals will bend over backwards to downplay this when they'd be loving livid if it was, say, Cheney instead.

Solution: mandatory voice-activated tape-recorders and wiretaps on all executive communications.

# ? Mar 13, 2015 15:38

Amergin: Jan 29, 2013; THE SOUND A WET FART MAKES

Trabisnikof posted:

Because normally he posts smug but hard to dispute conservative witticisms, while this is just wrong.

I got my numbers mixed up.

There were > 1 billion emails in the State Department as a whole while Clinton was there. By 2013, only ~40,000 of those remained and were retrievable.

Hillary herself had ~62,000 emails sent and received in her SoS tenure. Only ~30,000 were given over. Another ~30,000 were deemed "personal" and scrubbed/deleted.

So it's not just a failure of Hillary's transparency but also the entire state department under her tenure.

# ? Mar 13, 2015 15:40

RuanGacho: Jun 20, 2002; "You're gunna break it!"

Gentlemen, you have my demands I expect that you will deliver my ONE BILLION EMAILS by noon tomorrow!
*Raises pinky to mouth while looking confused as to why no one is taking him seriously*

# ? Mar 13, 2015 15:42

evilweasel: Aug 24, 2002

Amergin posted:

I got my numbers mixed up.

There were > 1 billion emails in the State Department as a whole while Clinton was there. By 2013, only ~40,000 of those remained and were retrievable.

Hillary herself had ~62,000 emails sent and received in her SoS tenure. Only ~30,000 were given over. Another ~30,000 were deemed "personal" and scrubbed/deleted.

So it's not just a failure of Hillary's transparency but also the entire state department under her tenure.

Well, the problem you've got using those numbers is that Hillary is about a million times more transparent than the rest of the department by those metrics :v:

# ? Mar 13, 2015 15:42

Pirate Radar: Apr 18, 2008; You're not my Ruthie!
You're not my Debbie!
You're not my Sherry!

I was gonna say wouldn't a billion emails be like

too heavy for the floor

# ? Mar 13, 2015 15:43

PhilippAchtel: May 31, 2011

Amergin posted:

I got my numbers mixed up.

There were > 1 billion emails in the State Department as a whole while Clinton was there. By 2013, only ~40,000 of those remained and were retrievable.

Hillary herself had ~62,000 emails sent and received in her SoS tenure. Only ~30,000 were given over. Another ~30,000 were deemed "personal" and scrubbed/deleted.

So it's not just a failure of Hillary's transparency but also the entire state department under her tenure.

Um, how in the world did you think that one billion emails in 4 years was remotely plausible? What a dopey thing to post.

Wait, don't actually answer, please.

# ? Mar 13, 2015 15:44

Amergin: Jan 29, 2013; THE SOUND A WET FART MAKES

PhilippAchtel posted:

Um, how in the world did you think that one billion emails in 4 years was remotely plausible? What a dopey thing to post.

Wait, don't actually answer, please.

Uh I don't know, maybe because I read it on CNN?

Actually in that article it says a billion in 2011, not even under her entire tenure.

What a dopey thing to post without googling :downs:

# ? Mar 13, 2015 15:45

Phone: Jul 30, 2005; 親子丼をほしい。

All of those billion emails were in a single pst file. It's no wonder why they're not retrievable.

# ? Mar 13, 2015 15:47

RuanGacho: Jun 20, 2002; "You're gunna break it!"

As someone who literally has to maintain emails for public record in a government org I can tell you that a stupid amount of time is spent complying with the law by deleting emails.

Ain't no spam like government email spam :allears:

# ? Mar 13, 2015 15:47

hobbesmaster: Jan 28, 2008

Amergin posted:

I got my numbers mixed up.

There were > 1 billion emails in the State Department as a whole while Clinton was there. By 2013, only ~40,000 of those remained and were retrievable.

Hillary herself had ~62,000 emails sent and received in her SoS tenure. Only ~30,000 were given over. Another ~30,000 were deemed "personal" and scrubbed/deleted.

So it's not just a failure of Hillary's transparency but also the entire state department under her tenure.

If you have a problem with state's data retention policy are you willing to fund their IT department?

Also anything important is done over SIPR so why do we care about emails? What do you think Manning released, it wasn't emails.

# ? Mar 13, 2015 15:47

evilweasel: Aug 24, 2002

Amergin posted:

Uh I don't know, maybe because I read it on CNN?

Actually in that article it says a billion in 2011, not even under her entire tenure.

What a dopey thing to post without googling

If you read the article, what actually has been happening is that the system archives only emails flagged to be archived, and employees aren't doing it. This is basically an IT issue where (presumably) they thought that archiving all emails was impractical or a bad idea for some reason. So given that, you've got to specify which ones will actually be archived and while you can blame that on bad training, the reality is nobody is ever going to bother except for the emails they specifically want retained to cover their rear end or something. Not out of a desire to evade transparency but just :effort:

# ? Mar 13, 2015 15:48

Garrand: Dec 28, 2012; Rhino, you did this to me!

How many people work for the State department? A billion emails in a year is almost 3 million emails a day.

# ? Mar 13, 2015 15:49

Trabisnikof: Dec 24, 2005

Amergin posted:

Uh I don't know, maybe because I read it on CNN?

Actually in that article it says a billion in 2011, not even under her entire tenure.

What a dopey thing to post without googling

Ah see now that actually links to something useful, the OIG report.

quote:

A 2009 upgrade in the Department of State�s system
facilitated the preservation of emails as official records. However, Department of State employees have not received adequate training or guidance on their responsibilities for using those systems to preserve �record emails.� In 2011, employees created 61,156 record emails out of more than a billion emails sent. Employees created 41,749 record emails in 2013.

So that's a big part of the problem: for an email to be recorded it has to be opted into the recording system. Emails aren't retained by default.

# ? Mar 13, 2015 15:49

Amergin: Jan 29, 2013; THE SOUND A WET FART MAKES

evilweasel posted:

If you read the article, what actually has been happening is that the system archives only emails flagged to be archived, and employees aren't doing it. This is basically an IT issue where (presumably) they thought that archiving all emails was impractical or a bad idea for some reason. So given that, you've got to specify which ones will actually be archived and while you can blame that on bad training, the reality is nobody is ever going to bother except for the emails they specifically want retained to cover their rear end or something. Not out of a desire to evade transparency but just

Trabisnikof posted:

Ah see now that actually links to something useful, the OIG report.

So that's a big part of the problem: for an email to be recorded it has to be opted into the recording system. Emails aren't retained by default.

And again, if this had been Cheney, none of you would be going "Oh, it was IT's fault. Well that's okay, then."

# ? Mar 13, 2015 15:51

Islam is the Lite Rock FM: Jul 27, 2007; by exmarx

How many of those were Joe Statesman hitting the reply all button?

Amergin that's because Hillary isn't the Lich King.

# ? Mar 13, 2015 15:52

VitalSigns: Sep 3, 2011

Amergin posted:

And again, if this had been Cheney, none of you would be going "Oh, it was IT's fault. Well that's okay, then."

Hadn't it actually been Cheney? and nobody cared?

# ? Mar 13, 2015 15:53

hobbesmaster: Jan 28, 2008

Amergin posted:

And again, if this had been Cheney, none of you would be going "Oh, it was IT's fault. Well that's okay, then."

Before this system, ie during the Bush admin, emails weren't retained at all.

# ? Mar 13, 2015 15:53

esto es malo: Aug 3, 2006; Don't want to end up a cartoon

In a cartoon graveyard

Amergin posted:

And again, if this had been Cheney, none of you would be going "Oh, it was IT's fault. Well that's okay, then."

hmm well if this was the prime evil lord of darkness you guys would be really mad, checkmate liberals.

# ? Mar 13, 2015 15:54

hangedman1984: Jul 25, 2012

So you know how during the Obama admistration many republicans would say things like how they missed Clinton and, even if he was still a democrat, at least he was a reasonable Democrat instead of a fascist tyrant. Now that Hillary might* be running are we gonna go back to how horrible Bill was with his immorality and his killing Vince Foster?

_{*Are we even still pretending she might not run?}

# ? Mar 13, 2015 16:03

Monkey Fracas: Sep 11, 2010; ...but then you get to the end and a gorilla starts throwing barrels at you!; Grimey Drawer

hangedman1984 posted:

So you know how during the Obama admistration many republicans would say things like how they missed Clinton and, even if he was still a democrat, at least he was a reasonable Democrat instead of a fascist tyrant. Now that Hillary might* be running are we gonna go back to how horrible Bill was with his immorality and his killing Vince Foster?

_{*Are we even still pretending she might not run?}

When has saying one thing in the past ever stopped them from saying a completely different thing about That Thing later like they never said the First Thing?

# ? Mar 13, 2015 16:12

Slaan: Mar 16, 2009; ASHERAH DEMANDS I FEAST, I VOTE FOR A FEAST OF FLESH

Garrand posted:

How many people work for the State department? A billion emails in a year is almost 3 million emails a day.

According to the Department of Justice, roughly 18,000 in June 2014.

So 1 billion divided 365 divided by 18,000. About 152 emails a person per day. That sounds normal, if slightly high. Even as a graduate student I have roughly 50 work emails I get to every day. I imagine someone scheduling visa interviews or making an economic report would be talking to a lot of people daily.

# ? Mar 13, 2015 16:18

Trabisnikof: Dec 24, 2005

Slaan posted:

According to the Department of Justice, roughly 18,000 in June 2014.

So 1 billion divided 365 divided by 18,000. About 152 emails a person per day. That sounds normal, if slightly high. Even as a graduate student I have roughly 50 work emails I get to every day. I imagine someone scheduling visa interviews or making an economic report would be talking to a lot of people daily.

Especially if that 1 billion number includes spam, ~150 emails a day seems normal.

# ? Mar 13, 2015 16:19

esto es malo: Aug 3, 2006; Don't want to end up a cartoon

In a cartoon graveyard

Slaan posted:

According to the Department of Justice, roughly 18,000 in June 2014.

So 1 billion divided 365 divided by 18,000. About 152 emails a person per day. That sounds normal, if slightly high. Even as a graduate student I have roughly 50 work emails I get to every day. I imagine someone scheduling visa interviews or making an economic report would be talking to a lot of people daily.

take your normal email load, and multiply it by CC to a bunch of people even slightly related. doesnt seem abnormal at all to hit that high

# ? Mar 13, 2015 16:20

PhilippAchtel: May 31, 2011

Amergin posted:

Uh I don't know, maybe because I read it on CNN?

Actually in that article it says a billion in 2011, not even under her entire tenure.

What a dopey thing to post without googling

Even ignoring all the other issues, if you seriously thought Hillary Clinton sent a billion emails, which you did because that's the number you chose for comparison against the number Hillary Clinton chose not to disclose, well...

FlamingLiberal posted:

Why are you even taking Amergin's bait

Oh god, I am the true dope here. :negative:

# ? Mar 13, 2015 16:26

Beamed: Nov 26, 2010; Then you have a responsibility that no man has ever faced. You have your fear which could become reality, and you have Godzilla, which is reality.

Amergin is actually a very, very good addition to this board, if only because it reveals who are left-wing because of rational thought, and who are left-wing because "HAHA THOSE DUMB CONSERVATARDS", as the latter always just go apoplectic when he posts and snap at anyone who responds.

# ? Mar 13, 2015 16:40

zoux: Apr 28, 2006

Beamed posted:

Amergin is actually a very, very good addition to this board, if only because it reveals who are left-wing because of rational thought, and who are left-wing because "HAHA THOSE DUMB CONSERVATARDS", as the latter always just go apoplectic when he posts and snap at anyone who responds.

Prepare for frothing retribution for pointing out USPol's blatant hypocrisy.

# ? Mar 13, 2015 16:42

Amergin: Jan 29, 2013; THE SOUND A WET FART MAKES

VitalSigns posted:

Hadn't it actually been Cheney? and nobody cared?

Nobody cared except for Mother Jones and the LA Times and the NY Sun and Mother Jones again and the House Committee on Government Oversight and Reform and Citizens for Responsibility and Ethics in Washington.

I mean do I need to try and go dig up MySpace posts by liberals to see if "anyone cared"?

PhilippAchtel posted:

Even ignoring all the other issues, if you seriously thought Hillary Clinton sent a billion emails, which you did because that's the number you chose for comparison against the number Hillary Clinton chose not to disclose, well...

"Even ignoring I was wrong... you're still dumb"
Okay.

Amergin fucked around with this message at 16:48 on Mar 13, 2015

# ? Mar 13, 2015 16:46

Raskolnikov38: Mar 3, 2007; We were somewhere around Manila when the drugs began to take hold

Joementum posted:

Quote of the morning, "You know, the 'lol' is redundant when you have the 'haha'." ~ Barack Obama.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RDocnbkHjhI

You know when you think about it Kimmel's career is kinda amazing. He was one half of a show that closed with women in bikinis jumping on trampolines and now he regularly gets to interview the president for fun.

# ? Mar 13, 2015 16:47

Raskolnikov38: Mar 3, 2007; We were somewhere around Manila when the drugs began to take hold

Amergin posted:

And again, if this had been Cheney, none of you would be going "Oh, it was IT's fault. Well that's okay, then."

Cheney's response was to claim he was actually not part of the constitution so I'm not sure he's a great counter-example.

# ? Mar 13, 2015 16:50

My Imaginary GF: Jul 17, 2005; by R. Guyovich

Joementum posted:

Quote of the morning, "You know, the 'lol' is redundant when you have the 'haha'." ~ Barack Obama.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RDocnbkHjhI

Oh, Barry, reading your daughter's texts again. Just cause you President don't mean its OK to have CIA send you a report on your daughters personal lives.

# ? Mar 13, 2015 16:53

VitalSigns: Sep 3, 2011

Amergin posted:

Nobody cared except for Mother Jones and the LA Times and the NY Sun and Mother Jones again and the House Committee on Government Oversight and Reform and Citizens for Responsibility and Ethics in Washington.

I mean do I need to try and go dig up MySpace posts by liberals to see if "anyone cared"?

Yeah maybe you do?

If all you can do is quote a few op-eds then it sounds like no one much cared, at least not in any way comparable to the amount of coverage Hillary is getting right now.

E:
Checking the archives for April 2007, I couldn't even find a DnD thread about this, although it's possible I missed it

VitalSigns fucked around with this message at 17:04 on Mar 13, 2015

# ? Mar 13, 2015 16:56

Jackson Taus: Oct 19, 2011

Amergin posted:

I got my numbers mixed up.

There were > 1 billion emails in the State Department as a whole while Clinton was there. By 2013, only ~40,000 of those remained and were retrievable.

Hillary herself had ~62,000 emails sent and received in her SoS tenure. Only ~30,000 were given over. Another ~30,000 were deemed "personal" and scrubbed/deleted.

So it's not just a failure of Hillary's transparency but also the entire state department under her tenure.

Wouldn't this demonstrate the shittiness of State Department IT and be a good reason to use a private email server in itself? Like doesn't the fact that they lost or deleted 99% of emails make a more innocent "didn't want to deal with State IT" more plausible since they actually suck?

# ? Mar 13, 2015 16:58

Fried Chicken: Jan 9, 2011; Don't fry me, I'm no chicken!

Mr Interweb posted:

So about the E-mailghazi...

"Sendghazi" dude

Edit: moving my edit to a new post

Fried Chicken fucked around with this message at 17:26 on Mar 13, 2015

# ? Mar 13, 2015 17:17

Joementum: May 23, 2004; jesus christ

Fried Chicken posted:

"Sendghazi" dude

SMTPgate_way

# ? Mar 13, 2015 17:23

TheLoquid: Nov 5, 2008

Amergin posted:

Nobody cared except for Mother Jones and the LA Times and the NY Sun and Mother Jones again and the House Committee on Government Oversight and Reform and Citizens for Responsibility and Ethics in Washington.

I mean do I need to try and go dig up MySpace posts by liberals to see if "anyone cared"?

"Even ignoring I was wrong... you're still dumb"
Okay.

Comparing that coverage to the coverage of Hildog's e-mail kerfuffle is totally disingenuous and you know it.

# ? Mar 13, 2015 17:24

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# ? Jun 11, 2024 03:50

Fried Chicken: Jan 9, 2011; Don't fry me, I'm no chicken!

Here is how bullshit this whole thing is. Right now the alarm is "we can't prove she kept a work and personal separate and didn't delete work emails on a different system". Whereas, had she maintained two separate email accounts, you still would not be able to prove she kept work and personal separate and didn't delete any work emails on the other system. Either way you are stuck with taking her word for it.

It's a complete catch-22 that is being paraded as an issue of transparency when it's really a bullshit no-win situation that exists just to whip up a furor. There is no right move Clinton could have made here that wouldn't have triggered this. Had she done personal and work through the state department account we'd be hearing about waste and it being a misappropriation to plan a wedding on state department computers.

# ? Mar 13, 2015 17:27

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Debate & Discussion > USPol March presents the 8th Annual Debt Limit Fight: Fracas in the Caucus

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