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Mr. Prokosch posted:
This would be hilarious if really true: the bolded classes are the ones that have been played in our nearly-two-year campaign that should finish up the next session (the Monk and a Warrior Druid are what I played during the 13TW playtest). None of my homebrewed classes, though we did houserule the other (caster) Druid some more talents. Anyway, going from levels 2 through 8, we only had one near-TPk and a handful of other difficult fights. The GM almost always used encounters a couple levels higher. If the classes played in the soon-ending campaign are really that weak, I 'm a little concerned we're going to be completely unchallenged (combat-wise) by Eyes of the Stone Thief when we switch characters. Edit: I'd personally put the Rogue in a higher tier, as the one in our game has consistently inflicted and avoided more damage than the other characters.
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Mar 15, 2015 13:32
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The Rogue's Swashbuckle is also a great choice for creative players. You trade momentum for an outrageous stunt, and it's automatically successful.
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Mar 15, 2015 13:56
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Yeah, honestly, Swashbuckle alone, along with wizards using Vances and Soliloquist Necromancers, puts the rogue into a tier of its own if you're all creative player with a cooperative GM. Of course, some GM's are so cooperative that you never need any of those talents, so I guess there's a sweet spot or whatever, but having a free pass to improvise some bullshit in combat and have it automatically work is actually really nice and a lot of fun.
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Mar 15, 2015 14:12
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LAST TIME ON 13TH AGE Z Dragon Ball Xenoverse is really really great. This time I made Frost Demons (Frieza's Race), Majins, and Bio-Androids. Bio Androids Frost Demons Majin Edit: Links fixed -Fish- fucked around with this message at 19:07 on Mar 15, 2015 |
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Mar 15, 2015 18:54
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Yo you've linked to Majin twice there chief.
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Mar 15, 2015 19:01
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Links fixed.
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Mar 15, 2015 19:08
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ProfessorCirno posted:Honestly I've found that wizards have the nova and not much else. Everyone brings up Force Salvo because that's about the only time I've seen a wizard really smash into a fight like a truck, and if they miss then they're hosed. Non-daily spells just aren't as competitive. High Arcana, Evoke, Cantrip Mastery. Then you've also got feated rituals. Wizards can have an insane amount of utility. One plan for fighting an invasion of hobgoblins in a town was to have the battle at a bridge, let part of the initial force through, then counter attack and hold the mouth of the bridge long enough to shut a large hastily constructed flimsy lightweight door made out of bamboo and straw and cast Hold Portal on it, and defeat the isolated force with the town militia. Later part of the plan was to then have the wizard to go galloping off on a horse and then feather fall down a cliff to a waiting fishing boat with straw dummies and cast a ritual version of Disguise Self to make it appear to be a High Elf landing craft full of troops (High Elves in the campaign had access to old knowledge and were a mettlesome great naval power, so a high elf landing boat is about as second thought inducing as pirates seeing zodiacs flying flags of a first world naval power). Said wizard then spam casts cantrip versions of fire based spells at staged targets that will explode in a flashy manner (hidden barrels of saw dust with bellows operated by villagers) to make it look like they are magically shelling the piss out of things as the first wave of reinforcements is coming in to land, ideally resulting in a route as the Hobgoblins decide they want none of this. Now, in all fairness to 13th Age, the book basically says that in this respect wizards are not balanced, and that magic is a license to do this exact sort of thing, so it just is what it is. The floor is also opened up much more for non-magic classes.
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Mar 15, 2015 19:57
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Cyclomatic posted:High Arcana, Evoke, Cantrip Mastery. Then you've also got feated rituals. I guess my thing is that all this could've been done without the wizard. Hold Portal is just a high strength check. Disguise Self is another skill check. Lit arrows fired at the saw dust would be just as effective as the cantrips. The only difference is the wizard is using their 1/day abilities, and they don't exactly have a lot of those. It honestly sounds more like a real cunning plan won the day, not the wizard. There's a stark difference between what you posted and a wizard using fly and earthquake to destroy an army without even thinking about it. I mean hell, rituals require skill checks to go off as is! I mean yeah, a wizard who has spent feats on rituals and permanent resources on cantrip mastery will be good at versatility, but the same goes for a rogue who takes Thievery, Shadow Walk, or Swashbuckler. Which reminds me; why is the rogue at Tier 3? So far they've been probably the most damaging in my group, their powers ensure they're slippery enough not to take hits to the face (when they remember to use them :p), and with Swashbuckler and Thievery they probably have the most toys to play with both in and out of combat. EDIT: And this is what I love about what I've seen from the Glorantha stuff is you get more of this. The Sword of Humakt can utter an oath with such conviction that it's impossible to disbelieve it, or simply declare that Their Sword Cuts It, whatever "it" is. The Orlanthi warrior can simply declare that they totally had a +5 background to do a thing and reroll with that even after failing it. The Orlanthi Rebel can likewise just declare "I'm actually there right now" for anywhere at all and then later proclaim "And then I leave." ProfessorCirno fucked around with this message at 21:04 on Mar 15, 2015 |
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Mar 15, 2015 20:59
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ProfessorCirno posted:I guess my thing is that all this could've been done without the wizard. Hold Portal is just a high strength check. Disguise Self is another skill check. Lit arrows fired at the saw dust would be just as effective as the cantrips. The only difference is the wizard is using their 1/day abilities, and they don't exactly have a lot of those. It honestly sounds more like a real cunning plan won the day, not the wizard. There's a stark difference between what you posted and a wizard using fly and earthquake to destroy an army without even thinking about it. I mean hell, rituals require skill checks to go off as is! It seems to have been a controversial choice for my super subjective list. I've never played a Rogue, my group had one for a while until he went Stalwart. I put Rogue in Tier 3 because Monk is definitely Tier 3 but when it comes to damage, mobility, and combat options the Monk beats out the Rogue. Though I guess the Monk's big problem isn't with the numbers, it's with how much Tweet hates you for wanting to play a Monk. So I'm in this weird spot where the Monk is more effective than the Rogue, and I would say has more interesting choices in a fight, so it's probably a better choice than playing a Rogue. But then I'd recommend you play anything but a Monk. I've also heard that after a while people get bored playing the Rogue. Next time I make a list off the top of my head I'll put an * next to Rogue. Maybe I'll promote him to Tier 2. Also "bad build" for Druid means a mix of casting and fighting talents or ever taking Wild Healer unless you're a multi-classed Cleric/Druid healbot.
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Mar 15, 2015 21:41
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I'm not convinced dipping into spellcasting with a warrior druid is such a bad idea. Targetting a non-AC defense is effectively a +2 to +6 to hit in most cases, so you could go dex primary, con second, wis third, and have decent AC and be just as accurate with your spells as with your hitting dudes. You wouldn't need to drop a feat on any at-wills, so you'd just be chucking around dailies (that pretty often do almost as much as your melee would on a miss, anyway) or things that don't have an attack roll at all.
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Mar 15, 2015 22:04
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-Fish- posted:LAST TIME ON 13TH AGE Z I never watched much DBZ, but this looks like fun stuff! Absorb Foe is awesome, I just wished it keyed off the for more-- like a damage-typed attack against PD from an enemy who had one, or a healing power from a self-healing enemy, etc.
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Mar 15, 2015 22:32
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I definitely agree but there's too many variables in monster design to accommodate all the possibilities. I could include a caveat for DMs to override the usual results with cool stuff catered to the enemy that they took down.
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Mar 16, 2015 01:46
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Mr. Prokosch posted:It seems to have been a controversial choice for my super subjective list. I've never played a Rogue, my group had one for a while until he went Stalwart. I put Rogue in Tier 3 because Monk is definitely Tier 3 but when it comes to damage, mobility, and combat options the Monk beats out the Rogue. Though I guess the Monk's big problem isn't with the numbers, it's with how much Tweet hates you for wanting to play a Monk. So I'm in this weird spot where the Monk is more effective than the Rogue, and I would say has more interesting choices in a fight, so it's probably a better choice than playing a Rogue. But then I'd recommend you play anything but a Monk. I've also heard that after a while people get bored playing the Rogue. Honestly it's hard for me to say. We have a monk but they keep forgetting to level their goddamn character up so they're still rolling level one damage dice instead of level two, and the necromancer is starkly cautious with spell usage, which mostly leaves the rogue and stalwart, and I've found the rogue tends to do more damage with sneak attack. I will say that I'm not sure about monks being more mobile. Rogues that use their actual powers are ridiculously slippery and can disengage like it ain't no thing before or after they attack.
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Mar 16, 2015 03:34
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Depends on the Talents and Forms you choose. I played a monk, and I had +3 to disengage checks, double movement once per encounter, and the ability to fly for a Ki point with the Leaf on the Wind talent. With several forms you can pop free or double move.
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Mar 16, 2015 04:05
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Flying might be my favorite thing about playing a monk. Flying is dope.
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Mar 16, 2015 04:12
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It probably is heavily talent based, but Shadow Walk has to be one of the coolest powers if you ask me. Just the ability to start every fight by totally disappearing and then re-appearing the next turn nearly anywhere and shanking the gently caress out of someone is so awesome (and effective).
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Mar 16, 2015 04:17
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CaptCommy posted:It probably is heavily talent based, but Shadow Walk has to be one of the coolest powers if you ask me. Just the ability to start every fight by totally disappearing and then re-appearing the next turn nearly anywhere and shanking the gently caress out of someone is so awesome (and effective). One of my favourite moments in our game is still when a few of the mook Kobold ninja squad they were fighting tried their disappearing trick and hosed up their attacks afterwards, then the Rogue player Shadow Walked and killed like five of them or something. "Let me show you what a real ninja looks like."
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Mar 16, 2015 09:25
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ProfessorCirno posted:which mostly leaves the rogue and stalwart, and I've found the rogue tends to do more damage with sneak attack. CaptCommy posted:It probably is heavily talent based, but Shadow Walk has to be one of the coolest powers if you ask me. Just the ability to start every fight by totally disappearing and then re-appearing the next turn nearly anywhere and shanking the gently caress out of someone is so awesome (and effective). Yeah, our rogue makes good use of Improved Sneak Attack, Shadow Walk, Tumble, and Tumbling Strike. They can move both move and inflict heavy damage almost at-will. PublicOpinion posted:Flying might be my favorite thing about playing a monk. Flying is dope. I just wish you didn't have to use a limited daily resource-- or hope you just used the right (flow) attack when you want to fly-- to fly for one turn. To me, it's like you are playing a cleric (another magically powered middleweight melee fighter) and one of your daily spells is actually a recharge 16+ that let's you fly for one turn. I think that would be a terribly underpowered spell. Edit: Prison Warden posted:One of my favourite moments in our game is still when a few of the mook Kobold ninja squad they were fighting tried their disappearing trick and hosed up their attacks afterwards, then the Rogue player Shadow Walked and killed like five of them or something. "Let me show you what a real ninja looks like." That is awesome.
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Mar 16, 2015 09:27
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-Fish- posted:LAST TIME ON 13TH AGE Z I like the originality with their powers especially the Majin's power. I may be bias as a big fan of DBZ, but I want to use these races. However, I have one major issue with these races: they don't use 13th Age's language. They also can, in the case of the majin, be condensed a bit. For example, the majin race's power should read like this: code:I also picked the majin race for the above to point out that I have trouble believing that the strength option really scales properly. I will admit that I did not calculate out the math for it, but +2 to damage just doesn't seem like something that remains useful when enemies start to have 500 HP and your attack will, on average, do 35 to 55 damage + 3x Damage Modifier. It will be better at lower levels, but really peter out at champion tier. Perhaps, it's balance by the fact it's a +2 to all damage until end of battle. However, you have to first drop a non-mook enemy to 0HP so it could be later in battle when this happens. As for the rest of races, as far as powers are concerned, they seem fine. Like I said, though, terminology needs to be updated from 4th edition terminology to 13th Age terminology. Covok fucked around with this message at 13:48 on Mar 16, 2015 |
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Mar 16, 2015 13:45
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Covok posted:
I would definitely tweak the power of the Absorb Foe options (+2 MD will often give you nothing), but I'm still trying to figure out a way to base what you get on the Foe you Absorb... Choose one of the following options that applies: 1)Gain a +2 to MD or PD depending on which stat was higher than yours (or choose if both) 2)If the foe had the ability to heal damage, regain hp equal to their level at the start of each turn you are staggered 3)If the foe resists an energy type, gain resist 16+ to that type 4)If the foe had an attack that could target the PD of a nearby creature, gain the following close attack you may use once this battle as a quick action: Attack: Your highest ability mod + absorbed foe's level vs. PD Hit: Damage equal to 1d6 X foe's level of the same type as the absorbed attack Miss: Damage equal to foe's level 5)If the foe had an AC of at least your level +17 add +2 to your AC 6)If the foe had a melee attack that did more damage than one of your average recoveries, add it's level to the damage of your melee attacks Earthorn fucked around with this message at 14:31 on Mar 16, 2015 |
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Mar 16, 2015 14:28
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Thanks for the clarification on terminology, Covok, I hadn't realized I'd slipped back I to 4e language. I like what you've got going on there Earthorn, I may use that as written. If I can find the links to them I'll repost the Saiyan, Namekian, and Notable Human for you guys to look at too. Phoneposting right now so my access is limited, last I checked Drive won't let me create links on the app. I'll check again really quick though. Edit: Namekian https://docs.google.com/document/d/1LsbkgFcOhZVqYm_AW_zLXWl0NykgE6nou5U_zs3_F8w/edit?usp=docslist_api Notable Human https://docs.google.com/document/d/1Cp_kWKM6t7ZQGXG2kt4y3sVArjNgCH2G4xtNcz4mu2Q/edit?usp=docslist_api Saiyan https://docs.google.com/document/d/1HbbOtArIsvi7g36NfGnByeZBuRXIuLbK-t1ngkvgRag/edit?usp=docslist_api These links SHOULD work. -Fish- fucked around with this message at 16:09 on Mar 16, 2015 |
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Mar 16, 2015 16:04
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-Fish- posted:
Should I add a movement option to Absorb Foe? Like if the enemy had flight, teleport, burrow, etc, you can do that once this battle? I like the Nemekain power. Regen is neat (need more PC regen in 13A imo). The notable human Ensui Taffi Dansu shouldn't scale. +1 to AC and PD is pretty much just as useful at level one as at level 10. Ditto +5. Maybe just make it a flat +2, or a d4? Strength from Anger seems just powerful enough, and a nice simple rage-type racial power.
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Mar 16, 2015 16:57
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Thanks for the feedback, I'll be implementing a good bit of it when I get in front of a real keyboard. I had a couple requests in my PM inbox to put the DBZ races into a shareable folder, so I done did that. https://drive.google.com/folder/d/0BwaST0JQ2KVcUVZzVDhlU3RmTW8/edit
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Mar 16, 2015 18:16
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-Fish- posted:
Awesome!
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Mar 16, 2015 18:28
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Notable Human and Majin have been updated based on feedback.
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Mar 17, 2015 00:32
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I worry the new Majin may be more than a bit clunky. The attempt to simulate it more properly and match the bonus with the monster's stats might have made it add table time as the player checks monster stats to see the bonus he or she applies for. Further points: 1) Resist 16+ to one energy is a bit strong especially considering that the new champion feat makes this power ALOT stronger. 2) Allowing you to use your foe's level for option 4 is a bad idea as monster levels go above 10 so the attack can become broken at higher levels 3) Option six is a little confusing. "Does more damage than one of your average recoveries" is an odd metric to use. If possible, can you explain the choice? 4) The new version of the champion feat is unbalanced. You never lose your bonus so it can be a permanent +2 AC for the rest of the game if the player wants it to. 5) You're still using 4e terminology, by the way. Honestly, I feel you need to take it back a step. The older version was more elegant. It may have simulated the act of absorbing something like Super Buu less, but it worked better in play and from a balance standpoint. Strength needed to be rebalanced and the terminology needed updating, but it was better for the system. To me, that's more important than matching the fiction. Maybe you could merge the two versions as another possibility. But, in all honesty, I think you're better off rolling than requiring the player and GM trying to match up monster stats with this ability to see what the bonus gets. Covok fucked around with this message at 06:03 on Mar 17, 2015 |
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Mar 17, 2015 05:56
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Covok posted:I worry the new Majin may be more than a bit clunky. The attempt to simulate it more properly and match the bonus with the monster's stats might have made it add table time as the player checks monster stats to see the bonus he or she applies for. 1)Resist 16+ to one type of energy is never strong. Aside from the fight you gain it in, you're probably gonna be hit with a specific energy type maybe once a day. 2)Remember, you are probably getting this bonus attack once, ever.. I don't think a one time bonus to hit is that crazy. If the champion feat stays as is, I would agree it should probably be changed to your level. 3)Maybe change "more damage than one of your recoveries" to more damage than five times your level? That's simpler. The reasoning when I suggested it was "what qualifies as a strong hit to your character." 4)A permanent +2 to AC to never use your racial power again seems perfectly balanced to me , actually. This version of the power is definitely more complicated, but on the other hand I also think that defining the cool thing your character can do rather than stopping the game while the GM figures it out is something a lot of players like, and not just players of spellcasters. Earthorn fucked around with this message at 06:59 on Mar 17, 2015 |
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Mar 17, 2015 06:56
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Earthorn posted:1)Resist 16+ to one type of energy is never strong. Aside from the fight you gain it in, you're probably gonna be hit with a specific energy type maybe once a day. 1)I originally thought it was harder to get that resistance, but actually around level 5 is when you can get it more permanently. 2)I was referring to the damage. The attack bonus is fine, the damage math breaks it a bit especially with the feat. Foe's Level x d6 can allow you to break damage math at times. That said, I didn't notice it was once per battle originally. 3)Having them compute an average for their recoveries is confusing. Not everyone knows the shorthand for computing that so I wouldn't be surprised if befuddled people. 4)I disagree. A permanent +2 to AC, PD, or MD is (except for MD which sucks) is a pretty drat good deal for the lose of this particular racial power. It's all about boosting yourself so why not boost your two most important defenses forever? Honestly, when it comes to strength, I think the root of the issue is the new champion feat. Allowing you to essentially permanently boost yourself seems much to me. Outside of feats and talents, nothing else really offers permanent boosts and no racial offer such. I don't know, do you disagree? I feel, generally, anything that will really slow down play should be smoothed out. Since some of these options are comparing their stats to yours and there is a high chance of overlap for some of them, it feels like you have to basically go through a back and forth Q&A with the GM about the monster's stats. It wouldn't be a super long Q&A, but it would bog things down a bit. I suppose they could just give the player the monster's stat block, but that isn't everyone's GMing style. Evil Mastermind posted:Okay, version 2.0. Due to unrelated reasons, I just looked it up and Bracers don't work on non-monks as a rule. So, you should add in a line saying "Fighters who take this talent may benefit from the use of Bracers." Covok fucked around with this message at 14:44 on Mar 17, 2015 |
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Mar 17, 2015 14:12
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Updated the wording for the Majin's champion feat. I can probably take care of the concerns for bogging down gameplay with compare/contrast while still keeping the "based on the enemy" feel, haven't had an opportunity to sit down and consider it.
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Mar 17, 2015 18:33
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Are there any good 3rd party classes for a heavy armor mage killer? I'm writing up some pregens for a one-shot in the setting of the Dragon Age video games some peeps wanted me to run, and I wanted to have a Templar character as an option. My first thought was Paladin, because that's obviously what the archetype is based on, but when I actually looked at the Paladin for it, it doesn't have a ton of abilities that fit. I can probably still build something good from Paladin, but if there's a solid homebrew for it, I'd rather use that.
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Mar 18, 2015 03:46
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Loki_XLII posted:Are there any good 3rd party classes for a heavy armor mage killer? I'm writing up some pregens for a one-shot in the setting of the Dragon Age video games some peeps wanted me to run, and I wanted to have a Templar character as an option. My first thought was Paladin, because that's obviously what the archetype is based on, but when I actually looked at the Paladin for it, it doesn't have a ton of abilities that fit. I can probably still build something good from Paladin, but if there's a solid homebrew for it, I'd rather use that. I never used them and I don't know their reputation of being good are bad, but I remember there being two magicblade classes on the vault: the Eldrich Knight and the Dilettante. Neither use Heavy Armor, but they try to mix spells and swords. You could also do a Paladin/Sorcerer Multiclass as long as you choose Spell Fist. I think this might still force you into light armor, but it would fit very well. You could get around it by just having the player spend his adventurer feat on being able to cast his sorcerer spells without attack penalty while in the Paladin's Heavy Armor. That shouldn't be too unbalancing.
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Mar 18, 2015 14:16
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Mage killer, not swordmage. Someone designed to gently caress over casters, not be them. The Fury has some talents and abilities that should allow it to be a pretty dang good mage killer, and one of its talents puts it in heavy armor. It's a little strange to get used to but really effective damage and flexibility-wise, though getting your MD higher might be a challenge since it doesn't use a mental stat. The Ronin is a good class in general and can get pretty good MD. It doesn't have much variation (a sort of Smite/Double Attack and a couple dailies are all you'll have aside from basics) but it's hecka effective. The Nemesis on the vault is also sort of a weird mage killer/magic absorber but it's got some problems mechanically so I'm not gonna really recommend it.
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Mar 18, 2015 21:33
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Bad thing: because of delays, I won't get my physical copy of the Eyes of the Stone Thief until a little later because of reasons, apparently. Good Thing: I got a £7 voucher for Pelgrane press! Neat. I don't think there is any 13th age stuff I don't own yet... maybe a physical copy of 13TW or the Bestiary. Or I could buy another copy for my pal's birthday so that we have more than one book amongst us. Decisions, decisions.
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Mar 18, 2015 22:29
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Raenir K. Artemi posted:Mage killer, not swordmage. Someone designed to gently caress over casters, not be them. The Fury has some talents and abilities that should allow it to be a pretty dang good mage killer, and one of its talents puts it in heavy armor. It's a little strange to get used to but really effective damage and flexibility-wise, though getting your MD higher might be a challenge since it doesn't use a mental stat. Thanks for the suggestions. I had seen the Nemesis, but yeah, it looked kind of weird. The other stuff you showed me looked cool, but not really what I'm going for, so I'll probably just use Paladin. It's not hard to bump MD, and I can grab the talents that make them good at saves, and it'll work, albeit be really simple.
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Mar 20, 2015 02:04
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Implacable with even just the first feat is really good, as defensive talents go. If you're looking for more offense Way of Evil Bastards stretches your smites out pretty well.
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Mar 20, 2015 03:59
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For more mage killing, I'd see if the DM would go for letting you pick the "counter-magic" spell from the wizard's High Arcana talent as if it were a cleric spell and you take the Cleric Training talent.
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Mar 20, 2015 04:26
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PublicOpinion posted:For more mage killing, I'd see if the DM would go for letting you pick the "counter-magic" spell from the wizard's High Arcana talent as if it were a cleric spell and you take the Cleric Training talent. I am the DM, I'm making pregens ('Cause I've got people who have never done tabletop before), and I just might do that. Thanks for the suggestion.
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Mar 20, 2015 05:30
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If you have access to the Book of Loot there are a couple of things in there that might help, such as the Gauntlets of Spellbreaking.
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Mar 20, 2015 05:44
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DBZ Races talk: Decided to take the Majin back to the roll-table version. Earthorn's version was more interesting and looked like it'd be more fun for the player, but actually implementing it would bog down the table too much for my comfort. In other news I'm working on secondary DBZ races and some of the classic Dragon Ball races: Humanoid Animal, Ogre, Demon, Vampire, and Mech Android; plus any others I can think of along the way. I've already decided the Ogre's racial ability will have something to do with prohibitive bureaucracy and paperwork. Edit: And Kaioshin. Also doing the Kaioshin. -Fish- fucked around with this message at 19:47 on Mar 20, 2015 |
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Mar 20, 2015 19:43
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tempted to write some overly complicated fusion dance rules...
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Mar 20, 2015 19:48
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