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Chief Savage Man posted:Kavak, do you have PMs? Go ahead.
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Mar 15, 2015 03:13
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A White Guy posted:Wars have been fought, millons have died, thousands of years of history changed, all to make the borders look pretty. Almost all of my strategy in Paradox games is rooted in either pure spite or a desire to have pretty borders.
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Mar 15, 2015 04:08
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Chief Savage Man posted:Kavak, do you have PMs? uh oh Zeroisanumber posted:Almost all of my strategy in Paradox games is rooted in either pure spite or a desire to have pretty borders. Those end up being the same thing disconcertingly often.
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Mar 15, 2015 07:01
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paragon1 posted:uh oh The only pretty border is the coast.
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Mar 15, 2015 11:13
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Chapter Fourteen: The Siege of Spokane (Late July-Late August 1940) Retrieved from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siege_of_Spokane Siege of Spokane Part of the Northwestern Front of the Great North American War  American forces manning a trench in the Spokane Valley Dates: 1 August 1940 – 12 September 1940 (1 month, 1 week and 5 days) Location: Spokane, Washington, Pacific States of America and surrounding environs Result: Internationale victory Belligerents: Internationale Combined Syndicates of America - 6 divisions, 63,000 troops in Spokane; nine divisions, 115,000 troops involved in relief attempts Mexico - 3 divisions, 35,000 troops Supported by: Bitterroot Salish tribe - unknown number of saboteurs and partisans Entente Pacific States of America - 6 divisions, 65,000 troops Canada - 2 divisions, 20,000 troops Commanders: Internationale: [CSA]Ernest Hemingway [CSA]Clifton B. Cates [CSA]Robert Hale Merriman [MEX]Victor Diaz Ovalle [SAL]Chief Martin Charlo Entente: [PSA]Phillip Barrow [PSA]George Scoggins [CAN]Ernest Charles Ashton [CAN]Blake Oulton Casualties and losses: Internationale: CSA: about 4,000 killed, 9,000 wounded Mexico: about 800 killed, 1500 wounded Salish: Two saboteurs executed Entente: PSA: about 4,000 killed, 9,500 wounded Canada: about 1,400 killed, 2,700 wounded Civilians: Estimates vary from 3,000 to 15,000 The Siege of Spokane was an engagement in the Great North American War involving the encirclement of American forces under the command of Ernest Hemingway in and around the city of Spokane, Washington. The siege is regarded to have begun with the capture of Missoula, Montana by the Canadian army on August 1, 1940 and to have ended with the surrender of the Pacific States of America on September 12, 1940. Attempts to relieve the siege involved American and Mexican forces and were contested by Pacifican and Canadian forces. Numerous battles that took place in areas of Montana, Oregon, Idaho, Washington and British Columbia are commonly regarded to be part of the overall engagement surrounding the siege of Spokane. The siege was the most important engagement of the Northwestern theater and had lasting effects on American military doctrine as well as on Ernest Hemingway's career. 1. Background  Hemingway's successful command in the American Southwest during the Mexican Intervention led General Marshall to reluctantly entrust him with a more important role in the Great North American War. Hemingway was given command of six divisions and given orders to attack Washington. His first goal was to capture the city of Spokane[1].  Marshall's primary concern about Hemingway was what Marshall perceived to be his recklessness. While Hemingway was very popular with the soldiers under his command, he also had overextended himself against Marshall's wishes during the Mexican Intervention.[2] Marshall preferred to have a more cautious commander in the Missoula salient, but was overruled by Benjamin Gitlow, who believed Hemingway being on the front line would be of propaganda value. Hemingway's recklessness demonstrated itself in how he advanced on Spokane despite the presence of Pacific troops in Boise that threatened his southern flank and the general lack of nearby support in isolated Montana. The plan called for the advance to only go forward if its flanks were protected, which was to be achieved by attacks into southern Idaho and Alberta.   The nearest allied force of considerable size was a smaller corps of three divisions that was engaged in the Battle of Yellowstone. [3]  Because Hemingway had not waited for the Canadian forces to the north to be dealt with before vacating Missoula, the Canadians were able to march directly south and overcome minimal resistance to take the city on the first of August.  Hemingway's position in Idaho was supplied through a caravan running from Missoula to Coeur D'Alene through a narrow valley in Mineral County. Canadian control of Missoula meant that the caravan could not access the valley and thus Hemingway was cut off from supply.  Hemingway did not stop his advance through the Spokane Valley and had control of the whole valley within days. The local population did not assist Hemingway's forces whatsoever and the retreating Pacifican forces had taken as many supplies with them as they could, leaving the Americans facing potential starvation and ammunition shortages.[4] 2. Initial Breakout Attempts  Hemingway did not want to wait for relief from the rest of the Red Army. His plan was to move across the Columbia Basin towards Yakima and then advance towards the Pacific Ocean by way of the Columbia River. The goal of this plan was to capture Portland which could be used to ferry in supplies and reinforcements by sea[5].  The Pacific Army moved into the Columbia Basin to block the escape route, and thus the two forces met in the Battle of Yakima.  The Red Army, who outnumbered the Pacific Army by two to one, scored a tactical victory in the engagement but the Pacific Army gained a strategic victory by forcing Hemingway to use enough of his dwindling supplies that he was forced to call off his march to the Pacific and attempt to hold out in Spokane. 3. Relief Attempts  After a few weeks, support finally came in the form of three Mexican divisions, who assaulted the Canadians in Missoula with support from a Centroamerican force in Calgary.  The allied forces were able to regain control of Missoula and began to reestablish the supply line through the Bitterroot Range. However, the Canadians captured and began to fortify the city of Coeur d'Alene at the eastern end of the Spokane Valley. Hemingway fortified the valley, utilizing the geography of the valley to his advantage. The front line between the Canadians and Americans in the valley was roughly coterminous with the Idaho-Washington border, where trenches and unexploded shells can still be found [citation needed].  Marshall, though apparently outraged at Hemingway's reckless action [6], did do everything he could to attempt to relieve the encircled army. The force attacking from Alaska was asked to speed up its advance in order to capture Vancouver and attempt to open an escape route for Hemingway through the Okanogan Highlands to the northwest of Spokane.  The Mexican relief force, having established its control over Missoula, began its advance towards Coeur D'Alene. The aforementioned supply route through the Bitterroot Range was the only usable path. The passable portion of the valley (that roughly corresponds with the modern Transcontinental 90) is less than a quarter of a mile wide in some parts and the Mexican force encountered great difficulty in their advance. The Canadians mined many of the narrowest portions of the valley and conducted regular ambushes from the surrounding mountains. The local Salish tribe elected to assist the Mexican force during their advance, and used their knowledge of the area to disrupt the efforts of the Canadians. Even with that assistance, the advance on Coeur D'Alene took a very long time [how long?] due to the damage done to the area's limited infrastructure.  When the Mexicans made it within fifty miles of Coeur D'Alene, the Canadian garrison in the city began to fear being attacked from both west and east. Therefore, the Canadians abandoned the city and evacuated across the lake to the south and reestablished themselves in the southern Columbia Basin. [7] They dynamited bridges and roads on their way out and slowed the advance of the Mexican relief force to a crawl, meaning that the Red Army was still unable to supply Hemingway.  Marshall also ordered a third operation to try and provide yet another escape route. The Revolutionary Marines launched an amphibious invasion of northwestern Oregon. Their mission was to occupy Portland and attempt an assault through the Cascade mountains to open up a southwestern escape route if it was needed. In the end, none of the three relief forces ever succeeded in relieving Hemingway, because the Pacific Army abandoned the siege due to unrelated events before any of the forces completed their missions (See article Pacific War#Surrender for details). 4. Aftermath In 1954, Hemingway described the siege as "the most terrifying experience" of his life and that he had "learned a great deal about what being a leader means." [8] Many historians [who?] doubt the sincerity of these claims, claiming instead that he only regretted the incident because of the rebuke he received from Marshall and Gitlow after the war had ended. [9] Marshall later described it as the "most fraught episode in the most fraught theater of the conflict." [10] The daily progress of the siege was followed worldwide, the profile of the siege enhanced by Hemingway's fame [11]. While the official propaganda arm of the Red Army extolled the heroism of Hemingway's bold advance [12], in private, Marshall was furious with Hemingway's disregard for the plan and convinced Gitlow that Hemingway should be not given any important commands in the future. [13] 4.1. Hemingway's Career Historians generally agree that Hemingway's reckless advance was to blame for the siege. [14] Hemingway's reputation as a commander was forever marred by the incident, and while Hemingway served in the Red Army throughout the 1940s, the siege marked the effective end of his career as a commander. After the end of the Great North American War, Hemingway was given no overseas commands and spent his time either administrating units stationed in America or traveling in the company of other commanders in a non-leadership capacity. [15] However, it did not affect his great prestige as a diplomat and author, and Hemingway was still received warmly everywhere he went. [16] 4.2. Military Doctrine Marshall used the experience of the siege in developing the doctrine the American Red Army used in the 1940s. [17] The siege was cited frequently as a justification in including mobility as the third central tenet of Red Army doctrine (along with tactical air power and 'optimization of force'). [18] The Red Army had already deployed a dozen fully motorized divisions in the Northeast and was considering developing more. The agonizingly slow pace of maneuvers in the region led the Red Army to decide to motorize all infantry divisions raised after the conclusion of the Great North American War. [19] 5. See Also
yes, i blamed a fictionalized historical figure for my own ineptitude
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Mar 16, 2015 02:02
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To be fair, Hemingway would probably have been a terrible general.
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Mar 16, 2015 02:19
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"Lets put our best writer in charge of an army! It's not like it'll lead to a siege where we lose thousands of troops and a tenth of a city is killed  ."Hemingway's role in the CSA is kind of...confused. He's not in the minister files, and his only other appearance is representing the CSA at the Second International Congress (With a ~14 year old photo). The event answer is "Yes We Can", which I pray to God is supposed to be a tribute to the UFW.
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Mar 16, 2015 02:42
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Zeroisanumber posted:To be fair, Hemingway would probably have been a terrible general. I remember one anecdote from the liberation of Paris where Hemingway wanted to go out and hunt down any remaining Nazis with a machine gun, or summat of the sort. So yeah, I think this characterization of him as some gung-ho madman is perfectly all right.
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Mar 16, 2015 02:48
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Zeroisanumber posted:To be fair, Hemingway would probably have been a terrible general. I was hoping he'd turn out to be great in this timeline, and that people would refer to his "dallying in writing" but, yes, I have a feeling this is the more realistic result of Hemingway in charge of several thousands of men. I love the [citation needed] and the entire Wikipedia-ness of this update.
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Mar 16, 2015 03:33
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CommissarMega posted:I remember one anecdote from the liberation of Paris where Hemingway wanted to go out and hunt down any remaining Nazis with a machine gun, or summat of the sort. So yeah, I think this characterization of him as some gung-ho madman is perfectly all right. Yeah he went native during the liberation of Paris and started acting like a FFI big shot carrying around guns and wanting to torture prisoners for info.
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Mar 16, 2015 03:37
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Is it just Seattle and Portland left that you need to capture? Will capturing all their victory provinces force the PSA out of the war, or will you have to beat the Canadians first?
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Mar 16, 2015 03:43
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paragon1 posted:Is it just Seattle and Portland left that you need to capture? That'll annex the PSA and knock them out, then it's just Canada. We'll still be at war with the rest of the Entente, though, and we're only ready to take out the Caribbean Federation as-is.
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Mar 16, 2015 03:50
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CommissarMega posted:I remember one anecdote from the liberation of Paris where Hemingway wanted to go out and hunt down any remaining Nazis with a machine gun, or summat of the sort. So yeah, I think this characterization of him as some gung-ho madman is perfectly all right. For Hemingway, shooting Nazis in a European capitol would be old hat.
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Mar 16, 2015 04:58
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If Hemingway can be a commanding officer, then I think some of our other characters may have talents we didn't expect them to have. 
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Mar 16, 2015 05:03
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NASCAR under syndie's would be kinda weird, but I suppose people would still want to race and worker co-ops still need ads for their stuff?
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Mar 16, 2015 05:22
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paragon1 posted:NASCAR under syndie's would be kinda weird, but I suppose people would still want to race and worker co-ops still need ads for their stuff? Weird is a bit of an understatement - NASCAR wouldn't be the same without Big Bill France and his undying hatred of unionization.
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Mar 16, 2015 08:10
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I broke alternate history.    First Harry Haywood will take Atlanta, then he will take Atlanta Motor Speedway. (yes, the nascar game includes a decal/nationality option for your driver to be North Korean)  down with the capitalists I'm having too much fun with this whole premise. csm141 fucked around with this message at 18:39 on Mar 16, 2015 |
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Mar 16, 2015 18:27
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Chief Savage Man posted:
Somebody needs to start pumping out Alt-Hist Syndie movie posters. Death Race 2000 now seems like a "What if the capitalists hadn't been overthrown" serious alt-histoy premise now. Maybe in this reality David Carradine can finally get the success he deserved.
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Mar 16, 2015 19:23
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Every spy and action movie now has Canadians as the villains rather than Russians.
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Mar 16, 2015 19:35
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Brony Hunter posted:Every spy and action movie now has Canadians as the villains rather than Russians. I expect you to die, eh.
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Mar 16, 2015 19:41
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Judging by the way Russia and China are going, I think they're going to end up as villains anyway, just for opposite reasons than in real life.
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Mar 16, 2015 19:44
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Since this seems a better place to ask than the Paradox thread, got a balance question about a change I wanna make to the ACW, spoilering just in case. I have no idea how I managed to avoid the event on the dozen or so playthroughs I've finished as the CSA before now but after annexing California I just had every single one of my militia deleted, which seems pretty absurd to me. Also, it completely screwed me over as war with the Canadians came two months later and I had a grand total of 15 infantry divisions. Would it be reasonable for me to change the event to instead set militia strength to something like 5% or 10% across the board? It'd represent all the workers heading back to their homes and families without completing destroying the units that I assume would want to keep their unit history while also still having a big impact on American military strength. Any thoughts? I'm wanting it to be at least somewhat balanced while not screwing over the CSA if war with Canada comes quickly, but the States once united have pretty vast manpower reserves to draw on so I'm not sure it'd even be a speedbump.
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Mar 16, 2015 19:55
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ArchRanger posted:Since this seems a better place to ask than the Paradox thread, got a balance question about a change I wanna make to the ACW, spoilering just in case. Go ahead. That event is hosed, anyway, it ignores that those militia might be used for peacekeeping operations. You could also throw in an option where you get a dissent penalty in exchange for keeping them, if balance is a really big deal.
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Mar 16, 2015 20:00
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Kavak posted:
To make sure I'm doing this correctly for each faction I'll just need to change the zeros to fives in the different versions of this event, correct? [command = { trigger = { not = { atwar = USA exists = CAL } } type = strength which = militia when = 0 where = 0 org = 0 value = 0 } #remove all militias Don't have a ton of experience modding the game beyond the thing with ship construction times and wanna be sure I'm not breaking something.
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Mar 16, 2015 20:10
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ArchRanger posted:To make sure I'm doing this correctly for each faction I'll just need to change the zeros to fives in the different versions of this event, correct? Modding documentation file says this: quote:type = strength which = [all/land/air/naval/unit type] when = [0/1] where = [0/1] [org = x.xx] value = [+/- x.xx] Honestly, just put a # in front of the command that removes the militias. That'll disable it and leave the event alone. Kavak fucked around with this message at 20:30 on Mar 16, 2015 |
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Mar 16, 2015 20:20
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TildeATH posted:Somebody needs to start pumping out Alt-Hist Syndie movie posters. Death Race 2000 now seems like a "What if the capitalists hadn't been overthrown" serious alt-histoy premise now. Maybe in this reality David Carradine can finally get the success he deserved. A cheesy jingoistic propaganda flick in the 50s called 'I Married A Capitalist!' Instead of a biopic called 'Patton' about a reckless eccentric general, you've got one called 'Hemingway' (or 'Rose', if you want to stick with a tank commander; what has Rose been doing so far, anyway?). Features a scene in which someone says the sentence 'Hemingway, you magnificent bastard, I read your book!' Charlie Chaplin doesn't go into exile (like he did in OTL after his last American movie was blacklisted for being Communist propaganda) and keeps making movies in the US well into the 1950s. Instead of a thousand Lost-Cause-Of-The-South movies, you get a thousand movies about the radical abolitionist movement and a bunch of Southerners complaining about Hollywood's biased portrayal of John Brown or Nat Turner. Star Trek is the same show, but is widely perceived as having a conservative political message rather than a progressive one. Matewan is the same movie. Shitloads of subversive Westerns which feature traditional Western plots shot from the perspective of the Native Americans. John Wayne becomes famous as one of the best villain actors in the industry. Ed Wood is still endearingly bad.
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Mar 16, 2015 20:35
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Rose is in Winnipeg with six divisions, nowhere near a tank.
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Mar 16, 2015 20:49
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The Marvel and DC comics are surprisingly unchanged, with the millionaire playboy types being union leaders instead of CEOs. The Fantastic Four start out going into space to beat the capitalists instead of the communists, of course.
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Mar 16, 2015 20:51
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paragon1 posted:The Marvel and DC comics are surprisingly unchanged, with the millionaire playboy types being union leaders instead of CEOs. Oh my god, Batman as a radical trade union leader whose parents were killed by Pinkertons and now moonlights as an anarcho-syndicalist vigilante. Red Son is the canon Superman and there's an alternate-universe special where he's a capitalist. Chief Savage Man posted:Rose is in Winnipeg with six divisions, nowhere near a tank. Aww.  He was one hell of a tank commander in OTL and would probably be pretty famous for it if he hadn't gotten killed.
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Mar 16, 2015 20:56
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Monopoly returns to its origins as a warning on the dangers of capitalism, still boring. Star Wars is pretty much the same, except the Imperials have German accents. The prequels still suck. Batman is a factory worker instead of a billionaire, but somehow still has a shitton of awesome toys. Call of Duty has levels revolving around Spokane, history spergs complain about how much they got wrong. A large number of war movies playing up the PSA and New Englanders as hapless pawns of the Canadian king. e; Bitcoin is even more of a joke somehow. Grizzwold fucked around with this message at 21:05 on Mar 16, 2015 |
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Mar 16, 2015 21:02
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A mild-mannered newspaper reporter seems a perfectly workable occupation for a socialist superhero.
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Mar 16, 2015 21:02
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Yeah Superman is new deal progressive as all get out, so they really wouldn't have to change him much for the new regime. Maybe not at all actually, the hyper-patriot "American way" respect for authority stuff only came along in the '50's with the Comics Code. Bruce Wayne would donate his estate to the people in the late '30s I guess. Although, Superheroes would probably not even be as big as they are now, for several reasons. A big one being other genres not completely dying out in the '50s because, again, no Comics Code.
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Mar 16, 2015 21:18
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There's a popular mod for Darkest Hour showing an alternate timeline where the Entente won the Weltkrieg, but everyone thinks it puts too much emphasis on the one big climatic war at the end, without many smaller conflicts to give every nation something to do in the opening phases of the game.
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Mar 16, 2015 21:19
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Kavak posted:A mild-mannered newspaper reporter seems a perfectly workable occupation for a socialist superhero. Superman got his start fighting corrupt landlords and oligarchs; it strikes me that he probably would have never moved away from that angle as he eventually did in OTL. Interestingly, this means "Lex Luthor, Corporate Titan" probably would have been a thing from the get-go instead of waiting for John Byrne's post-Crisis revamp. Green Arrow would eclipse Batman in popularity, both for his backstory of "rich boy who ended up giving away all his money to help people" and his deliberate callback to Robin Hood's wealth-redistribution scheme. Captain America's backstory changes; now he was a volunteer for Huey Long's AUS who was refused for service due to his past syndicalist sympathies. Defecting to the CSA, he volunteers for experimental procedures to make him a super-soldier. Tony Stark is a union shop steward who builds a suit of armor to protect his fellow workers from an attack by Canadian soldiers. He is given the name Iron Man after defending the steel mills of Pittsburgh from the Entente. Wonder Woman, rather than being an ambassador from the Amazon civilization in Themyscria, is instead a refugee; she has long been opposed to the gender-based inequality of her island and seeks to demonstrate to her Amazon sisters that a society built on equality regardless of gender, creed, or color is not only possible but preferable. She eschews her customary title of 'Princess' and insists on being called 'Citizen Diana.' Hawkman remains boring.
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Mar 16, 2015 21:22
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Mister Bates posted:Oh my god, Batman as a radical trade union leader whose parents were killed by Pinkertons and now moonlights as an anarcho-syndicalist vigilante. Tank divisions are just so expensive and tank brigades slow down motorized infantry so it'd be a tough thing to build armor when there's needs for a large Navy and air force. Even our IC has (very high) limits.
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Mar 16, 2015 21:24
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Grizzwold posted:Monopoly returns to its origins as a warning on the dangers of capitalism, still boring. China Mieville's 'rejected pitch' for a socialist superhero fits in here, I think. Although obviously the setup would be different...
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Mar 16, 2015 21:31
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Mister Bates posted:Oh my god, Batman as a radical trade union leader whose parents were killed by Pinkertons and now moonlights as an anarcho-syndicalist vigilante. http://edthomasten.deviantart.com/art/Springheeled-Jack-274771840 Yeah that actually was done in a Alternative time line.
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Mar 16, 2015 21:40
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If Lowtax had any integrity left, this would be a Photoshop Friday.
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Mar 16, 2015 22:47
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"MacArthur did nothing wrong" becomes a common shitpost on SA when discussing politics. Does the CSA have any events regarding religion or anything like that? It's pretty deeply ingrained in American culture (such as it is), so I can't imagine they'd go the route of state atheism like the USSR can. Still would be interesting to see though.
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Mar 16, 2015 22:58
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Grizzwold posted:"MacArthur did nothing wrong" becomes a common shitpost on SA when discussing politics. If you had asked a Russian in 1914, they would have also said that religion was extremely integral to their culture and life. Certainly not notably less so than the U.S. on average.
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Mar 16, 2015 23:00
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