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NerdyMcNerdNerd posted:I like destroyers just fine, and I enjoy that they require a clever sort of gameplay to really make the most of them. While BB's are certainly strong overall, a full spread of torpedoes from equal/higher tiers takes them down just like anything else. Thus any BB worth his salt has to take into account torp bombers and DD's close enough to launch torps at him and maneuver accordingly while maintaining a good firing line for his guns. That's really easy to do when I'm only worrying about a single destroyer I can take out in a single salvo of my guns. It's way harder when I've got a DD just coming around an island, two flights of torp bombers incoming and another BB I've been dueling with for awhile. Much like Tanks, Teamwork is OP. In my Kongo the only single ship I'm afraid of is a Fuso. That's after Torps. Even then I'm fairly certain I can trade long-range shots and dodge their's via maneuvering. Regardless I'm always going where teammates are to add my guns and giant HP blob to theirs. The better teamwork/skill of the players is usually the deciding factor of matches.
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Mar 18, 2015 01:10
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EponymousMrYar posted:Much like Tanks, Teamwork is OP. In my Kongo the only single ship I'm afraid of is a Fuso. That's after Torps. Even then I'm fairly certain I can trade long-range shots and dodge their's via maneuvering. Regardless I'm always going where teammates are to add my guns and giant HP blob to theirs. The better teamwork/skill of the players is usually the deciding factor of matches. Likewise, as a cruiser fan I've found it works best for the overall match if I play a screening role for battleships and carriers, intercepting fighters and destroyers while the battleships save their guns for bigger targets. This is of course contingent on my teammates not being retards.
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Mar 18, 2015 01:16
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xthetenth posted:Kongo is the first battleship that doesn't have a glaring weakness. Kawachi is a slow pig with short range (the worst combo), and the Miyagi has too few and too inaccurate guns to land decent hits with any consistency. Kongo is fast, somewhat protected with a bit of AA, has enough guns to fire decent salvoes and overall isn't outright bad at anything. Fuso is slower but gives a dense 12 gun salute that fills the area you shoot. Nagato's a bit disappointing but only in comparison, Amagi's back to fast and a ton of gun, and Yamato's a ton of armor and a good gun layout. Uh the Miyagi owns and is comically maneuverable for a battleship. The Kawachi has a short range but can't be flanked. I did really well in both ships before hitting the Kongo, which is just nuts.
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Mar 18, 2015 01:20
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Strobe posted:Look at this wrong opinion. No, I'm pretty sure once the shooting starts ships become a lot more visible and scouting isn't as important . There'll be situations, that, with a proper setup you can see them and they can't see you, but they're rare. Usually not enough to justify an extra destroyer versus a battleship. Figuring out where the enemy is going in the beginning is still useful, but carriers can do that. I don't think anyone is arguing cruisers and destroyers are completely bad and useless, people are arguing that battleships are too much better than other classes to justify bringing a decent balance of ships. Adventure Pigeon fucked around with this message at 01:26 on Mar 18, 2015 |
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Mar 18, 2015 01:23
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Adventure Pigeon posted:
Thankfully the game generally forces a balance of ships, which keeps it fun. I find that after the initial engagement spotting becomes a lot more important. In the beginning everyone shoots at everything and there's so many ships chaining vision that yeah, scouting isn't that big a deal. In the mid-late game though it matters and I greatly appreciate the scout planes because of it.
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Mar 18, 2015 01:32
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I've been put in a few games with only one carrier now. My team has a carrier, me, and the other team has none at all. It has made me realize just how lovely dps the carriers actually have. The time it takes for the planes to prepare, lift, wait for the rest of the group to lift, get to the target, get in position, fart around to actually attack, get all the way back, manage to land and reload is just so long. If you're not at least causing heavy damage to a ship every cycle you're just dead weight to the team. And then some Karl Dönitz weeaboo manages to somehow unbeach his battleship and dodge 10 torpedoes while reversing. Sure it's great to unload a bunch of torps into some pubbie who starts crying and raging in the chat but a lot of the time I would do more damage in a round by getting into a battleship and driving into the middle of the enemy spawn firing for as long as I'm afloat. Is it just me being really bad at boats or is this something people with actual skill has noticed as well?
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Mar 18, 2015 01:33
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Poil posted:I've been put in a few games with only one carrier now. My team has a carrier, me, and the other team has none at all. It has made me realize just how lovely dps the carriers actually have. The time it takes for the planes to prepare, lift, wait for the rest of the group to lift, get to the target, get in position, fart around to actually attack, get all the way back, manage to land and reload is just so long. If you're not at least causing heavy damage to a ship every cycle you're just dead weight to the team. And then some Karl Dönitz weeaboo manages to somehow unbeach his battleship and dodge 10 torpedoes while reversing. The strength of carriers, I think, is that a good player can deliver a very hefty amount of damage to almost any ship in the match on demand. There's a flexibility to carrier damage that's unique among ships, and they're excellent scouts. Think of the carrier as more of a support ship than a major damage dealer in its own right. That being said, I do think carriers could stand to be buffed some. Good carrier players in my experience are wizards at picking off ships at will, but average carriers have only a marginal game presence and bad carriers are free points.
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Mar 18, 2015 01:38
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EponymousMrYar posted:Much like Tanks, Teamwork is OP. In my Kongo the only single ship I'm afraid of is a Fuso. That's after Torps. Even then I'm fairly certain I can trade long-range shots and dodge their's via maneuvering. You can certainly hold your own versus a Fuso in a Kongo. I am pretty sure the Fuso's guns are less accurate although the pack a better punch. If you are modded and the captain is trained correctly you'll shred a less skilled Fuso for sure.
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Mar 18, 2015 01:41
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They're also masters of force projections. Assuming a 2 fighter 2 bomber deployment, that's two different boats and a zone of AA support that a CV can reasonably provide all at the same time. They can even be across the map from each other. Of course there's the matter of actually hitting with your torps and not getting your fighter squadron's creamed by other fighters (if they're taking AA fire that's AA shots not directed at any bombers in the vicinity.) I think Dive Bombers could be tweaked a bit. More base damage less crit chance to make them a reasonable alternative to torp bombers. Almost guaranteed hits for some damage and maybe a lot of damage vs. huge amounts of damage if you hit (and people WILL try to dodge unless you get perfect shots.) demonR6 posted:You can certainly hold your own versus a Fuso in a Kongo. I am pretty sure the Fuso's guns are less accurate although the pack a better punch. If you are modded and the captain is trained correctly you'll shred a less skilled Fuso for sure. In general the biggest threats to a BB like the Kongo as I see them are: Getting ganged up on (Teamwork OP.) No seriously Teamwork is OP I don't want to fight many dudes at once. Oh god it's the perfect two flight-torpedo spread where I can only reasonably dodge half of them! Surprise Torpedoes. Torpedoes. A skilled Fuso. A skilled Kongo. E: Quote reply and made my sentences more better. EponymousMrYar fucked around with this message at 02:01 on Mar 18, 2015 |
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Mar 18, 2015 01:46
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Your average carrier player may as well not be there
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Mar 18, 2015 01:52
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James Garfield posted:You play cruisers because you think they're fun. The tradeoffs made by battleships leave them at a substantial advantage against every other class. Anyone choosing ships based entirely on which are the best is playing Fusos, Amagis and Yamatos, as is apparent from looking at certain alpha testers. According to someone who's got one right now and whose opinion on ship balance I roughly trust, the Yamato's way squishy right now compared to what it should be and that's messing with it being that great. I wouldn't be surprised if their guess that they're tuning armor models is right. Fart Car '97 posted:Uh the Miyagi owns and is comically maneuverable for a battleship. The Kawachi has a short range but can't be flanked. They're definitely workable but they definitely have weaknesses. The miyagi is amazing for speed and maneuverability but that shot spread just isn't reliable like on higher tiers. The Kawachi's main advantage is being able to prevent something that doesn't happen to other battleships very often because of exactly the characteristics it lacks. demonR6 posted:You can certainly hold your own versus a Fuso in a Kongo. I am pretty sure the Fuso's guns are less accurate although the pack a better punch. If you are modded and the captain is trained correctly you'll shred a less skilled Fuso for sure. Kongo can hold its own, in large part it wants good angling and range/position control though.
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Mar 18, 2015 01:54
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Mar 18, 2015 01:59
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Nice, how much damage did you wind up doing?
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Mar 18, 2015 02:02
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The balance system currently overvalues carriers too, which just makes them even worse. I've had games where we got 1 carrier and the other team got 0 carriers, so in return they gave them two extra cruisers and the stronger battleships. Needless to say we lost horribly.
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Mar 18, 2015 02:02
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santanotreal posted:The balance system currently overvalues carriers too, which just makes them even worse. I've had games where we got 1 carrier and the other team got 0 carriers, so in return they gave them two extra cruisers and the stronger battleships. Needless to say we lost horribly. There is also the problem that carriers are the only warship in the game where a single tier difference makes them a liability, If you got two same tiered carriers on one team, and one carrier on the other that is one tier higher, that one carrier will win other the other two, If it has the air superiority mod, than the other carriers may just as well never launch aircraft and drive up to the nearest enemy ship
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Mar 18, 2015 02:06
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Fart Car '97 posted:Your average carrier player may as well not be there It takes a lot of skill to basically afk all game long and occasionally click a boat. Those torp bombers aren't going miss targets all by themselves! Usually when I'm in my carrier, I'm moving around, watching my team, the mini-map. I roll fighter-heavy, so I can tie up the enemy's fighters with one squad and screw over their bombers with the other. Then I direct my bombers after whatever capital ships are engaged. Either they're super concentrated on their fight and won't notice my bombers, or they do, and try to dodge, which gives my team time to pound on them. If the game is really close, I try to communicate with my team. Do you guys need fighters? I'm sending fighters. I've got bombers enroute to bomb that BB you're fighting, hang in there. Normally I don't hear poo poo in return, except whining. I liked the BB that whined about a lack of fighter cap in a game where I shot down 36 planes.
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Mar 18, 2015 02:08
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I'm constantly looking at the.map when I'm carriering, but I can't read the battle worth poo poo despite knowing where everyone is and where they are going. Always looking for enemy planes to intercept and trying to bomb juicy targets that aren't behind a wall of aa fire. Tomorrow I'm going to aim to improve my manual torping however.  Cythereal posted:The strength of carriers, I think, is that a good player can deliver a very hefty amount of damage to almost any ship in the match on demand. There's a flexibility to carrier damage that's unique among ships, and they're excellent scouts. Think of the carrier as more of a support ship than a major damage dealer in its own right. santanotreal posted:The balance system currently overvalues carriers too, which just makes them even worse. I've had games where we got 1 carrier and the other team got 0 carriers, so in return they gave them two extra cruisers and the stronger battleships. Needless to say we lost horribly.  My fighters put in some good scouting though, and took out quite a few scout planes for the heck of it.Stevefin posted:There is also the problem that carriers are the only warship in the game where a single tier difference makes them a liability, If you got two same tiered carriers on one team, and one carrier on the other that is one tier higher, that one carrier will win other the other two, If it has the air superiority mod, than the other carriers may just as well never launch aircraft and drive up to the nearest enemy ship Poil fucked around with this message at 02:23 on Mar 18, 2015 |
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Mar 18, 2015 02:12
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My favorite thing is when the enemy carrier decides to torp my tier 5 carrier. The amount of AA it packs compared to every other ship that size is pretty crazy. I had some guy do that with two unescorted flights of torp bombers yesterday, between my single fighter and AA I think a grand total of one plane lived long enough to launch torps.
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Mar 18, 2015 02:17
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santanotreal posted:The balance system currently overvalues carriers too, which just makes them even worse. I've had games where we got 1 carrier and the other team got 0 carriers, so in return they gave them two extra cruisers and the stronger battleships. Needless to say we lost horribly. I like it when it gives on team an extra Kongo and the other team gets two DDs in return
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Mar 18, 2015 02:24
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Protip: If you're in a cruiser (ala Cleveland) and you're up against another cruiser, AIM FOR THEIR GUNS. I was dueling Cleveland vs Cleveland and he was 5k away, I systematically took out all his turrets and he couldn't fire at all. I was pretty much taking a turret every volley. AP of course, you should never be using HE
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Mar 18, 2015 03:39
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Scout planes need to be removed from everyone but carriers. Oh look I am in a BB and want to go around this island, I'll just launch this stupid plane and detected loving everything. VV Don't care how they think its balanced it is complete bullshit counter to a DDs when they can just press button and detect you. BadLlama fucked around with this message at 03:44 on Mar 18, 2015 |
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Mar 18, 2015 03:40
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Can't see smoke. Also being a single plane they tend to die comically to AA and they're on a really long timer.
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Mar 18, 2015 03:41
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SuperSix posted:Protip: If you're in a cruiser (ala Cleveland) and you're up against another cruiser, AIM FOR THEIR GUNS. I have been working on magazine/citadel hits and the result is I've been loving dominating other cruisers in the Omaha. I just took on a Full health Omaha and Kongo with my 3/4 OMaha and burned down the other Omaha before some TBs go me 
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Mar 18, 2015 03:54
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BadLlama posted:Scout planes need to be removed from everyone but carriers. Oh look I am in a BB and want to go around this island, I'll just launch this stupid plane and detected loving everything. Fighters are far more annoying than scout planes. Most DDs above tier 5 can destroy a single scout fairly easily
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Mar 18, 2015 03:57
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Had this hilarious match yesterday where I was divisioned with a buddy in tier 4 destroyers. We were rounding an island and I was like "there's a lone cruiser there, let's get him" (we were at about 4.5km) and my friend is like "uhhh, you sure, that's a cleveland". We went for it anyway and torped his butt from consecutive smoke, took a fair bit of damage doing it but sunk him. The enemy player raged in all-chat about how we were "torpedo noobs" and how we should "use your drat guns" like "real ships". Guy was real mad about getting his tier 6 godmachine sunk by tier 4 destroyers. And I'm pretty sure not shooting was key in not getting blown to poo poo on the approach, so...
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Mar 18, 2015 04:01
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Gamesguy posted:Fighters are far more annoying than scout planes. Most DDs above tier 5 can destroy a single scout fairly easily I was in my farragut and turned my AA on since I knew I was already spotted. That plane didn't die. I think the Farragut is just awful and thats why I am currently having a very bad time in a DD. BadLlama fucked around with this message at 05:21 on Mar 18, 2015 |
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Mar 18, 2015 04:01
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I thought this video was pretty cool showing the way they loaded they massive 16in gun. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0OmOQs0ziSU&t=3s
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Mar 18, 2015 07:20
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I had some good games tonight with two friends running CLs and BBs in a division. At one point I was fighting two Kongos in my Kongo so I sheered in towards the leader and rammed him with a sliver of health left and on fire.  We both blew up and it was awesome. For my next trick I beat the hell out of a Fuso at 20km and managed an 8 hit salvo. Then I got forcefed torps by 4 squadrons of bombers. Having a game end by cap or timer when you're in the middle of a fight is really discouraging. Its a bad vibe when the game ends with 1 second left on the reload that is totally gonna blow up the enemy BB you've been fighting.
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Mar 18, 2015 08:52
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I find it really hard to judge balance in this game, mostly because the skill difference seems huge. I've seen those super heroes in DDs killing half a team, in other games they get one salvoed as soon as they hit the range of a CR or BB. CV surely do need some rebalancing, the tier difference needs to be adjusted or MM fixed and I'd say most of them need a DPM increase somehow.
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Mar 18, 2015 10:01
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maximum_battleship I don't care how they do it, but they need to put those things in the game.
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Mar 18, 2015 11:56
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Delorence Fickle posted:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maximum_battleship Premium low-tier US battleships would be my guess if they ever appear. Like the TOG, but infinitely worse.
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Mar 18, 2015 12:20
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Tahirovic posted:CV surely do need some rebalancing, the tier difference needs to be adjusted or MM fixed and I'd say most of them need a DPM increase somehow. All they have to do is decrease the points spread between fighter planes. Having more planes on hand is already a huge advantage for a higher tier CV, and the increase of planes between tiers is huge. Bombers and torpedo bombers also get increases to damage, hitpoints, and speed. I don't think CVs need an increase in damage potential, it's just that most CV drivers are bad. Going up against a good CV pilot when you're in a big boat is headache inducing.
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Mar 18, 2015 13:14
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Do shells keep going after hitting the water? What happens to penetration/damage? I see iChaseGaming is aiming deliberately at the water line and doing great damage. Here I've been thinking that hitting water = miss... 
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Mar 18, 2015 13:17
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Cythereal posted:Premium low-tier US battleships would be my guess if they ever appear. Like the TOG, but infinitely worse. High tier. The tog is slow and not that well armed. The maximums could at least move, and have a wall of guns.
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Mar 18, 2015 13:23
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PirateBob posted:Do shells keep going after hitting the water? What happens to penetration/damage? I see iChaseGaming is aiming deliberately at the water line and doing great damage. Here I've been thinking that hitting water = miss... They do! Obviously they still have to hit the hull but entering the water is not automatically a miss.
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Mar 18, 2015 13:42
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8CpJoojc000 ok i might have got a little too close on that one.
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Mar 18, 2015 13:50
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xthetenth posted:High tier. The tog is slow and not that well armed. The maximums could at least move, and have a wall of guns. I could see these ships being a tier 8 premium or even set up as its own "experimental battleship" line on the US tech tree. "Tillman IV" might be a bit OP when you look at it's stats: quote:25.2 knots (46.7 km/h; 29.0 mph)80,000 short tons (72,600 t)(24) 16-inch (406 mm), 50-caliber guns in four six-gun turrets
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Mar 18, 2015 14:02
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Knowing Wargaming we're gonna get a ton of insane paper projects and stuff that only ever existed as a tall tale told around a campfire. I can't wait.
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Mar 18, 2015 14:06
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NerdyMcNerdNerd posted:All they have to do is decrease the points spread between fighter planes. Having more planes on hand is already a huge advantage for a higher tier CV, and the increase of planes between tiers is huge. Bombers and torpedo bombers also get increases to damage, hitpoints, and speed. The disparity between air power is what I mean, if you're up against a CV a tier higher than you, your fighters will get shredded even in a 2 vs 1 situation. They need to either fix that or fix the MM for it. Fixing it with health alone might not be a good idea since plane hp needs to increase to counter ever increasing AA with tiers. Maybe I am just bad with my Sapian but I really don't feel like I manage to do that much damage, hard to tell without total damage being displayed on the scoreboard tough. On most maps if you want to stay safe you can launch 1 torpedo attack roughly every 2 minutes, so that's what 4 torpedo hits every 2 minutes? If it's more then I just assume that you're really good and probably shouldn't be taken into account when it comes to balance, since you'd do well in any boat.
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Mar 18, 2015 14:27
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Tahirovic posted:The disparity between air power is what I mean, if you're up against a CV a tier higher than you, your fighters will get shredded even in a 2 vs 1 situation. They need to either fix that or fix the MM for it. Fixing it with health alone might not be a good idea since plane hp needs to increase to counter ever increasing AA with tiers. If you can hit 4 trops off every run, and still feel your doing too little damage then you are too far from battle. You want to keep you CV behind your BB line just out of range of the other sides BB line.
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