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Condiv posted:are you watching the same video as everyone else? it most certainly does show the shooting Yeah, that video doesn't show anything useful at the actual time of the shooting, the camera is pointing at the corner
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Mar 18, 2015 16:37
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Jarmak posted:Yeah, that video doesn't show anything useful at the actual time of the shooting, the camera is pointing at the corner you don't need a head on shot of the scene to see not much happened for cops to be scared of. the kid traveled probably a grand total of 5 feet between the entrance of his doorway to where he died. he apparently stepped out on to the porch in front of his door while the camera was turned, when the shots were fired he was stepping off that and then he fell and died on the pavement. i'm not sure what threatening gestures he's supposed to have made in those few seconds that would justify his shooting
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Mar 18, 2015 16:58
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Stop apologizing for the police you fascists
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Mar 18, 2015 17:02
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Condiv posted:you don't need a head on shot of the scene to see not much happened for cops to be scared of. the kid traveled probably a grand total of 5 feet between the entrance of his doorway to where he died. he apparently stepped out on to the porch in front of his door while the camera was turned, when the shots were fired he was stepping off that and then he fell and died on the pavement. i'm not sure what threatening gestures he's supposed to have made in those few seconds that would justify his shooting There was a car behind the cop that the guy wasn't moving towards as he died. Had to shoot.
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Mar 18, 2015 17:13
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Condiv posted:tasers are for unarmed people you want to torture, cops apparently consider them and pepperspray useless for anything else More or less this. Tasers are for unarmed people you have 6 cops holding down. If the cop is actually scared, they go straight to gun. Keeping in mind, many police are racist cowards, which shouldn't be overlooked.
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Mar 18, 2015 18:09
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Non-lethal force is for whites. C'mon guys.
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Mar 18, 2015 18:36
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Dum Cumpster posted:There was a car behind the cop that the guy wasn't moving towards as he died. Had to shoot.
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Mar 18, 2015 21:29
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Condiv posted:you don't need a head on shot of the scene to see not much happened for cops to be scared of. the kid traveled probably a grand total of 5 feet between the entrance of his doorway to where he died. he apparently stepped out on to the porch in front of his door while the camera was turned, when the shots were fired he was stepping off that and then he fell and died on the pavement. i'm not sure what threatening gestures he's supposed to have made in those few seconds that would justify his shooting How many times do you think the cops should have let themselves be stabbed before they responded? 3? 4? Bwee posted:Stop apologizing for the police you fascists Then pick a shooting that isn't legit, already. Hardly anyone, not even DND posters, got up in arms about Eric Garner and he got strangled to death on camera, but a crazy guy rushing the cops with a screwdriver gets shot oh no kill the police eat the rich semper wifi fucked around with this message at 23:14 on Mar 18, 2015 |
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Mar 18, 2015 23:11
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semper wifi posted:How many times do you think the cops should have let themselves be stabbed before they responded? 3? 4? I like this binary world where it is only to kill or be killed.
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Mar 18, 2015 23:13
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Vahakyla posted:I like this binary world where it is only to kill or be killed. You can't expect the cops to risk trying to taser the guy when he's that close. They might be cops but they're still human.
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Mar 18, 2015 23:17
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semper wifi posted:You can't expect the cops to risk trying to taser the guy when he's that close. They might be cops but they're still human. What's the time difference in firing a taser versus firing a handgun, considering either is already drawn and aimed? I'm willing to bet they're both much much much faster than the speed a man with a screwdriver can move.
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Mar 18, 2015 23:22
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Vahakyla posted:I like this binary world where it is only to kill or be killed. I guess people who are stopped by police should take that into consideration.
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Mar 18, 2015 23:22
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semper wifi posted:Hardly anyone, not even DND posters, got up in arms about Eric Garner Pretty sure they did actually.
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Mar 18, 2015 23:22
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semper wifi posted:Then pick a shooting that isn't legit, already. Hardly anyone, not even DND posters, got up in arms about Eric Garner and he got strangled to death on camera, but a crazy guy rushing the cops with a screwdriver gets shot oh no kill the police eat the rich I love this series of totally incorrect impressions. Oddly enough my impression of responses at the time includes a fair amount of outrage and also a lot of police apologists talking about how it was Garner's fault for not assuming a compliant posture and tone of voice.
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Mar 18, 2015 23:25
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They had to choke him, otherwise Garner would've choked all those cops. #ItsMeOrYou
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Mar 18, 2015 23:25
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semper wifi posted:You can't expect the cops to risk trying to taser the guy when he's that close. They might be cops but they're still human. The cop managed to get on the other side of the car before he killed the guy. Sure looked like he was faster that the fat mentally ill man. Can't keep backing away though, need to control the situation by shooting the guy who needs help.
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Mar 18, 2015 23:28
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blunt for century posted:What's the time difference in firing a taser versus firing a handgun, considering either is already drawn and aimed? I'm willing to bet they're both much much much faster than the speed a man with a screwdriver can move. You can see the taser mounted on the guy's belt on his off-hand side, it would have been slower to draw. It also doesn't look like either of them have their guns out initially, the cop on the right draws at 0:25. Plus you only get 1-2 shots (I think maybe they make ones with 4?) and like I said before in that kind of "oh poo poo" situation - I don't think you can blame them for just going for the guns. SedanChair posted:I love this series of totally incorrect impressions. Oddly enough my impression of responses at the time includes a fair amount of outrage and also a lot of police apologists talking about how it was Garner's fault for not assuming a compliant posture and tone of voice. Bullshit dude, the Mike Brown thing's been going for like what, 7 months now? Complete with DOJ investigation of FPD, nation-wide outcry, and so on. I remember people talking about the Eric Garner thing for maybe 2-3 weeks. Same with that kid in Cleveland. e: Maybe it wasn't Cleveland, but the kid with the toy gun I mean. Dum Cumpster posted:The cop managed to get on the other side of the car before he killed the guy. Sure looked like he was faster that the fat mentally ill man. Can't keep backing away though, need to control the situation by shooting the guy who needs help. "backing away is faster than running" semper wifi fucked around with this message at 23:42 on Mar 18, 2015 |
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Mar 18, 2015 23:37
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semper wifi posted:"backing away is faster than running" "he was able to keep distance between them" Keep arguing with what's shown on the video if you want.
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Mar 18, 2015 23:47
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semper wifi posted:You can't expect the cops to risk trying to taser the guy when he's that close.
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Mar 18, 2015 23:50
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blunt for century posted:What's the time difference in firing a taser versus firing a handgun, considering either is already drawn and aimed? I'm willing to bet they're both much much much faster than the speed a man with a screwdriver can move. no you see a taser is more like tickling, it's only really useful for when you'd like to nudge a suspect into complying with you meanwhile, this crazed black giant probably would've grown stronger from a taser blast and may have been undefeatable if our boys in blue hadn't discovered his fatal weakness
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Mar 18, 2015 23:52
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Condiv posted:you don't need a head on shot of the scene to see not much happened for cops to be scared of. the kid traveled probably a grand total of 5 feet between the entrance of his doorway to where he died. he apparently stepped out on to the porch in front of his door while the camera was turned, when the shots were fired he was stepping off that and then he fell and died on the pavement. i'm not sure what threatening gestures he's supposed to have made in those few seconds that would justify his shooting He only really moved a foot or two. The problem is that the cops were only about 5 feet away. The "gesture" he could have made is moving the screwdriver to the point it was at when we last saw it to something in a stabbing motion. We can't see that. He also could have been walking out the door. If he was about to stab the officer, then a firearm, not a taser is the correct choice. A taser can fail even when it hits its target. Honestly, talking about whether or not this is a justified shooting is pointless. Without a clear video or an admission, we'll never know exactly what happened. However, what is clear is that this did not have to happen. Once mom leaves and they see the potential weapon, they can start backing long before the motion. They know this is a MH call -- they can alter their actions to be less aggressive and more compatible with persons with MH issues. The problem here is that the officers knew the person had serious mental health issues and treated him like someone who was a totally rational actor. Command presence doesn't work with the seriously mentally ill, hell, it only kind of works on the stone sober and completely sane. Then of course, there's the question is why the hell are the police responding to this type of call if there has been no violence alleged (whether this is true is an open question). They are exactly the wrong type of person for this type of call. The reason of course is that in the US we have no one else, no one properly trained to respond to MH issues. nm fucked around with this message at 23:56 on Mar 18, 2015 |
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Mar 18, 2015 23:52
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semper wifi posted:Bullshit dude, the Mike Brown thing's been going for like what, 7 months now? Complete with DOJ investigation of FPD, nation-wide outcry, and so on. I remember people talking about the Eric Garner thing for maybe 2-3 weeks. Same with that kid in Cleveland. e: Maybe it wasn't Cleveland, but the kid with the toy gun I mean. You're not making any sense. Are you talking about D&D or have you seamlessly transitioned to talking about the public at large? Because while D&D has discussed both incidents at length, the only reason Mike Brown and Ferguson has gotten more attention is because of the ensuing civil unrest. There was no massive community demonstration and police crackdown for Garner or Tamir Rice, hence they did not get the same level of sustained attention. Also your inability to recall Tamir Rice's name kind of undercuts your intent to chide us for having selective attention.
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Mar 18, 2015 23:52
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semper wifi posted:You can see the taser mounted on the guy's belt on his off-hand side, it would have been slower to draw. It also doesn't look like either of them have their guns out initially, the cop on the right draws at 0:25. Plus you only get 1-2 shots (I think maybe they make ones with 4?) and like I said before in that kind of "oh poo poo" situation - I don't think you can blame them for just going for the guns. Why would it have been slower to draw? They had plenty of time to draw their guns. Also, with multiple officers surrounding the guy, it seems entirely possible to have tased him or maced him or both just as easily as shooting him. Also this Rent-A-Cop posted:The maximum effective range of a Taser is only about 20' to start with so I guess anyone in Taser range is too dangerous to Taser.
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Mar 18, 2015 23:54
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The problem with tasers for deadly force incidents is that they malfunction a lot. One prong goes in, the other doesn't. I see that a lot with my clients who get tased (well attempted). That is fine for someone who is physically non-compliant or doesn't pose a deadly risk. The taser is a replacement for the club or pepper stray not the firearm. I'm not saying he did nor did not pose such a risk here, I think the camera angle makes it unclear (and the police stories are going to be self-serving), but if he did, the close distance between him and the officers means that if the taser fails, there is no backup. They had at least 5 seconds (actually a long time as these go) from the point of seeing the weapon (yelling commands to drawing the weapon), knowing he had MH issues. Instead of backing up and de-escalating, they either stood ground or even moved closer and barked orders. Regardless of what this guy did in those 5 seconds, if they had acted more appropriately for the situation this kid would be in a mental hospital somewhere.
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Mar 19, 2015 00:01
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Having read a ton of the comments from both the youtube video and here, it just seems like people are missing the point/asking the wrong questions. Does an officer have the right to defend himself from a screwdriver wielding maniac? Absolutely, of course. But in this video we see police creating the violent situation and that is absolutely something that can be discussed and criticized. The issue here is escalation. The man is in his own doorway holding a screwdriver and the police upon seeing it immediately begin shouting and yelling for the man to put the object down. So, the situation goes from 0 to 60 in a second. The man, who's grasp on reality is likely already tenuous at best, then makes a movement and is killed for it. Did the police need to respond the way they did upon seeing the screwdriver? The worst thing you can do is incite/threaten violence on someone having a mental episode, and violence is increasingly the only language police are willing to use. Many of my acquaintances work in community mental health and I can assure you its a big problem. tl;dr police only use force to solve problems, not all problems require force to solve them.
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Mar 19, 2015 00:04
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nm posted:Regardless of what this guy did in those 5 seconds, if they had acted more appropriately for the situation this kid would be in a mental hospital somewhere. Mostly agree with you but people keep saying kid. He was 38. If you can't move faster than a 38 year old clearly out of shape person then you shouldn't have the power to end their life. And it looks to me like the cop was moving faster than him, but then started making up excuses immediately after he killed him. I don't know how anyone can take their explanation of events as what really happened when they immediately start trying to keep the information that will go public to a minimum. Dum Cumpster fucked around with this message at 00:09 on Mar 19, 2015 |
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Mar 19, 2015 00:06
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nm posted:The problem with tasers for deadly force incidents is that they malfunction a lot. One prong goes in, the other doesn't. I see that a lot with my clients who get tased (well attempted). That is fine for someone who is physically non-compliant or doesn't pose a deadly risk. The taser is a replacement for the club or pepper stray not the firearm. I mean, I understand tasers malfunction sometimes, or doesn't get a solid hit, but it's still better for them to have shot him repeatedly. Also, they could have maced the poo poo out of him and backed away. Mace doesn't malfunction much at all, and it's easy as poo poo to aim. A guy with a screwdriver won't be much harm if he can't see and the officers are out of stabbing distance anyway
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Mar 19, 2015 00:06
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Well this is interesting...quote:There’s been yet another blow to the case against Cameron Todd Willingham, the Texas man who was executed in 2004 for setting a fire that killed his three young daughters at their home. This month, the State Bar of Texas formally accused the lead prosecutor of misconduct after an investigation requested by the Innocence Project. The filing, first reported by The Marshall Project, said that John H. Jackson knew about evidence that bolstered the case for Willingham’s innocence and kept it from his attorney. Looks more and more likely that the state of Texas has executed an innocent man.
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Mar 19, 2015 00:07
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The entire concept of having to use a gun for defense against edged weapons is misguided and based on inadequate training. If police knew how to use their batons they would be a more appropriate and less dangerous solution for literally everyone involved; police, their victims and bystanders.
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Mar 19, 2015 00:09
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nm posted:The problem with tasers for deadly force incidents is that they malfunction a lot. One prong goes in, the other doesn't. I see that a lot with my clients who get tased (well attempted). That is fine for someone who is physically non-compliant or doesn't pose a deadly risk. The taser is a replacement for the club or pepper stray not the firearm. doesn't seem like it can even be claimed to be a replacement for a baton or pepperspray at this point. both could've immobilised/disarmed this guy without killing him.
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Mar 19, 2015 00:10
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SedanChair posted:You're not making any sense. Are you talking about D&D or have you seamlessly transitioned to talking about the public at large? Because while D&D has discussed both incidents at length, the only reason Mike Brown and Ferguson has gotten more attention is because of the ensuing civil unrest. There was no massive community demonstration and police crackdown for Garner or Tamir Rice, hence they did not get the same level of sustained attention. I'm talking about both. I saw some show about Ferguson on AJE just earlier this week and haven't heard anything about Garner in a long time. It's just bugs me that every single time this comes up it seems like everyone focuses on these very obviously legit shootings instead of the ones like Garner. Yeah I probably should have remembered Rice's name but like I said I only saw stuff about him for a little while (though to be fair that one was a little questionable in the end, too, considering his toy gun was indistinguishable from a real gun). I think Garner could have resulted in some more significant policy changes and gotten a lot more done had he become the focus instead of Brown. blunt for century posted:Why would it have been slower to draw? They had plenty of time to draw their guns. Also, with multiple officers surrounding the guy, it seems entirely possible to have tased him or maced him or both just as easily as shooting him. I agree there was probably a way for them to end that without killing him, there were better endings possible, but the outcome we got wasn't unacceptable, just sad.
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Mar 19, 2015 00:11
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blunt for century posted:I mean, I understand tasers malfunction sometimes, or doesn't get a solid hit, but it's still better for them to have shot him repeatedly. Also, they could have maced the poo poo out of him and backed away. Mace doesn't malfunction much at all, and it's easy as poo poo to aim. A guy with a screwdriver won't be much harm if he can't see and the officers are out of stabbing distance anyway Also it gets everywhere.
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Mar 19, 2015 00:11
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"If you're ready for it," which by definition victims of police violence are not.semper wifi posted:I'm talking about both. I saw some show about Ferguson on AJE just earlier this week and haven't heard anything about Garner in a long time. It's just bugs me that every single time this comes up it seems like everyone focuses on these very obviously legit shootings instead of the ones like Garner. Yeah I probably should have remembered Rice's name but like I said I only saw stuff about him for a little while (though to be fair that one was a little questionable in the end, too, considering his toy gun was indistinguishable from a real gun). I think Garner could have resulted in some more significant policy changes and gotten a lot more done had he become the focus instead of Brown. Did you read what I wrote? What is the difference between what happened in Ferguson and what happened in the other two incidents? Can you answer that?
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Mar 19, 2015 00:12
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SedanChair posted:The entire concept of having to use a gun for defense against edged weapons is misguided and based on inadequate training. If police knew how to use their batons they would be a more appropriate and less dangerous solution for literally everyone involved; police, their victims and bystanders. seriously, a baton has a reach advantage over a screwdriver, it has a utility advantage over the screwdriver (every hit is guaranteed to hurt as opposed to only forceful stabs), etc. there is literally no reason cops HAD to turn to guns in this situation
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Mar 19, 2015 00:13
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SedanChair posted:Did you read what I wrote? What is the difference between what happened in Ferguson and what happened in the other two incidents? Can you answer that? Yeah I know, the riots. But Garner died a month before Brown did, and on video too. Garner also notably not on video robbing a convenience store.
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Mar 19, 2015 00:14
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SedanChair posted:"If you're ready for it," which by definition victims of police violence are not.
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Mar 19, 2015 00:15
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Rent-A-Cop posted:How do you figure? It isn't like the cops are that sneaky. I mean, they have big flashing lights on their cars and a tendency to yell things like "I'm going to pepper spray you!" Gee, let's consider the differences between a training where the instructor is like "OK you're going to be sprayed, then do this and this" like it was Double Dare to just spraying a person who is not at a training. This is revealing. So this is why cops just shoot people instead of using their pepper spray. "I was able to do things after mentally steeling myself to be sprayed! Better just put bullets in them." Well, nobody said the reasoning abilities of police were adequate. semper wifi posted:Yeah I know, the riots. But There is no but, that is the reason. The public does not care about black people dying, they care about black people angry and in groups.
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Mar 19, 2015 00:18
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Look at this dude who should've been shot: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cX5CPx4RKWw
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Mar 19, 2015 00:22
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Alright, so this fat 38 year old mentally challenged guy is resistant to mace, and impossible to hit with a taser, and was heard yelling "I WANT TO STAB A COP WITH THIS HERE SCREWDRIVER". gently caress it, just shoot him.  How about they mace him, then while he's distracted and can't see (very well) they can tase him from behind. Then they can tackle and disarm him while he's incapacitated or use riot shields or something. My point is that they had a whole fuckload of other options available, but they decided to, yet again, escalate the situation immediately and then start shooting the scary scary black man
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Mar 19, 2015 00:24
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Vahakyla posted:Look at this dude who should've been shot: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cX5CPx4RKWw Maybe once we arm our police with trash bins we'll see officer involved shootings go down. blunt for century posted:Alright, so this fat 38 year old mentally challenged guy is resistant to mace, and impossible to hit with a taser, and was heard yelling "I WANT TO STAB A COP WITH THIS HERE SCREWDRIVER". gently caress it, just shoot him. I agree there was probably a way for them to end that without killing him, there were better endings possible, but the outcome we got wasn't unacceptable, just sad. Can we just move on and stop discussing it? I'm running out of ways to rationalize it. Dum Cumpster fucked around with this message at 00:26 on Mar 19, 2015 |
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Mar 19, 2015 00:24
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