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Vahakyla posted:Look at this dude who should've been shot: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cX5CPx4RKWw Those guys are way too close, he could kill them before they blinked.
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Mar 19, 2015 00:30
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Dum Cumpster posted:... but the outcome we got wasn't unacceptable, just sad. That's a matter of perspective.
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Mar 19, 2015 00:31
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Zeitgueist posted:Those guys are way too close, he could kill them before they blinked. He could just spin in a circle and their heads would all pop off.
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Mar 19, 2015 00:32
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SedanChair posted:Gee, let's consider the differences between a training where the instructor is like "OK you're going to be sprayed, then do this and this" like it was Double Dare to just spraying a person who is not at a training. My point was that pepper spray is basically just a chemical irritant. It won't stop anyone who is set on the idea of being combative. It's primary purpose is to take the fight out of assholes and drunks so the police don't have to club them. Sadly, like Tasers, it seems to get used primarily as a pain-compliance tool.
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Mar 19, 2015 00:33
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blunt for century posted:How about they mace him, then while he's distracted and can't see (very well) they can tase him from behind. Then they can tackle and disarm him while he's incapacitated or use riot shields or something. My point is that they had a whole fuckload of other options available, but they decided to, yet again, escalate the situation immediately and then start shooting the scary scary black man impossible, he'll just power through the massive amounts of pain mace causes in pursuit of cop-death. cops trained to do it can do it, so a manic-depressive kid with schizophrenia would probably have the mental strength and focus to do it too!
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Mar 19, 2015 00:33
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Rent-A-Cop posted:Being at the county range does not give you a 2+ to pepper spray resistance. Attending a class where the effects are explained to you, in the context of others being sprayed and recovering, likely does.
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Mar 19, 2015 00:34
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Rent-A-Cop posted:My point was that pepper spray is basically just a chemical irritant. It won't stop anyone who is set on the idea of being combative. It's primary purpose is to take the fight out of assholes and drunks so the police don't have to club them. Sadly, like Tasers, it seems to get used primarily as a pain-compliance tool. Having been peppersprayed, the best you're gonna do is flail your arms around ineffectually. I guess you could do a helicopter move if you were the machete guy.
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Mar 19, 2015 00:34
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blunt for century posted:Alright, so this fat 38 year old mentally challenged guy is resistant to mace, and impossible to hit with a taser, and was heard yelling "I WANT TO STAB A COP WITH THIS HERE SCREWDRIVER". gently caress it, just shoot him. My problem is your getting to a point where force was needed. It shouldn't have been needed. The problem here is that once force becomes needed, the non-lethal options carry a greater risk of GBI or death. I am somewhat surprised that people don't see a screwdriver as a deadly weapon, but I guess I see poo poo every day that most people don't see. If he was taking the worst possible action in the period we can't see much of him, it is possible that deadly force was the "best" option. The problem is that we shouldn't have gotten to that point.
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Mar 19, 2015 00:36
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Dum Cumpster posted:Can we just move on and stop discussing it? I'm running out of ways to rationalize it. It was a totally justified shooting. The cops in this case really didn't do anything wrong. They shot a guy charging them with a weapon. Like I said before it probably could have been done better by someone, somewhere - if they backed off sooner, came to the door ready to tase him or talked to his mom more before they met the guy, but once it reached the point it did it's silly to expect the cops to do much thinking beyond oh poo poo->shoot.
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Mar 19, 2015 00:36
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Anything can be a deadly weapon, that doesn't mean it's going to be. If you sneak up on somebody in prison and shank them with a screwdriver, yeah they could die. If you are a fully tooled up officer with a vest and least four different force options hanging from your belt, it's pretty loving unlikely. A baton is sufficient.
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Mar 19, 2015 00:38
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semper wifi posted:It was a totally justified shooting. The cops in this case really didn't do anything wrong. Like I said before it probably could have been done better by someone, somewhere, but it's silly to expect the cops in that situation to do much thinking beyond oh poo poo->shoot. Expecting cops to do anything harder than being trigger happy morons is too much, I would agree. That's why folks are saying that not getting the cops involved would have been a better move. Because a lot of cops are racist cowards. Not all of them, just enough.
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Mar 19, 2015 00:38
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semper wifi posted:It was a totally justified shooting. The cops in this case really didn't do anything wrong. Like I said before it probably could have been done better by someone, somewhere, but it's silly to expect the cops in that situation to do much thinking beyond oh poo poo->shoot. It could have been a totally justified shooting. We don't know because the video doesn't show enough. He could have been rushing the officer to the right in a stabbing motion, he could have been going to his mother. There's a big difference. SedanChair posted:Anything can be a deadly weapon, that doesn't mean it's going to be. If you sneak up on somebody in prison and shank them with a screwdriver, yeah they could die. If you are a fully tooled up officer with a vest and least four different force options hanging from your belt, it's pretty loving unlikely. A baton is sufficient. I've seen people messed up in fights (not just stabbing in the back) with screwdrivers. nm fucked around with this message at 00:41 on Mar 19, 2015 |
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Mar 19, 2015 00:39
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SedanChair posted:Anything can be a deadly weapon, that doesn't mean it's going to be. If you sneak up on somebody in prison and shank them with a screwdriver, yeah they could die. If you are a fully tooled up officer with a vest and least four different force options hanging from your belt, it's pretty loving unlikely. A baton is sufficient. This post makes me wonder if you've seen a screwdriver or even your own body in real life before, it's a 6" long pointy piece of steel. Come on.
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Mar 19, 2015 00:39
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No cops announced "I'm going to murder you because you're black and I'm scared and hate you. For being black." Therefore, it was justified.
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Mar 19, 2015 00:40
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nm posted:I am somewhat surprised that people don't see a screwdriver as a deadly weapon I can see a screwdriver as a weapon. A lot of poo poo can be a weapon. I think people are more upset that "black man holding screwdriver" can be so immediately justified as a good kill.
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Mar 19, 2015 00:40
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Zeitgueist posted:I think people are more upset that "black man holding screwdriver" can be so immediately justified as a good kill. I think there's only one person arguing that here, and you're not going to change his mind.
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Mar 19, 2015 00:41
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SedanChair posted:Attending a class where the effects are explained to you, in the context of others being sprayed and recovering, likely does. Zeitgueist posted:Having been peppersprayed, the best you're gonna do is flail your arms around ineffectually.
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Mar 19, 2015 00:41
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semper wifi posted:This post makes me wonder if you've seen a screwdriver or even your own body in real life before, it's a 6" long pointy piece of steel. Come on. No you come on, look at the reality of the situation. Do you really think a guy surrounded by cops is going to be able to sink a screwdriver into the space behind one of their clavicles? You are buying into a hyper-vigilant mindset. Rent-A-Cop posted:Nope, still hurts. Taser hurts too, but not as much. What are you saying "nope" for? Did you contradict me? I don't think you did because I never said it didn't hurt, only that police in training would be more likely to be capable of deliberate actions after being sprayed than somebody off the street.
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Mar 19, 2015 00:42
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SedanChair posted:No you come on, look at the reality of the situation. Do you really think a guy surrounded by cops is going to be able to sink a screwdriver into the space behind one of their clavicles? You are buying into a hyper-vigilant mindset. You post in TFR dude, I'm sure you've seen that knife guy vs AK cops video.
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Mar 19, 2015 00:43
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semper wifi posted:You post in TFR dude, I'm sure you've seen that knife guy vs AK cops video. Are we talking about knives now? I thought we were talking about screwdrivers.
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Mar 19, 2015 00:45
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Rent-A-Cop posted:Sounds like you had a significantly worse reaction than most people. Took 3 shots to the face. The clothes I was wearing could make my eyes tear up even hours later. Is the story that cops getting peppersprayed at the academy just laugh and do some pushups or whatever?
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Mar 19, 2015 00:45
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nm posted:I think there's only one person arguing that here, and you're not going to change his mind. Yeah, I agree, I'm saying in the larger sense though.
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Mar 19, 2015 00:45
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nm posted:It could have been a totally justified shooting. We don't know because the video doesn't show enough. Yeah ok, I concede that it is possible he was just running over to momma with his favorite screwdriver in hand, maybe going to tighten up her glasses or something. SedanChair posted:Are we talking about knives now? I thought we were talking about screwdrivers. I don't understand where you're going with your line of posting here. Surely you will admit that being stabbed with a screwdriver can be fatal and will at least result in serious injury.
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Mar 19, 2015 00:45
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semper wifi posted:It was a totally justified shooting. The cops in this case really didn't do anything wrong. They shot a guy charging them with a weapon. Like I said before it probably could have been done better by someone, somewhere - if they backed off sooner, came to the door ready to tase him or talked to his mom more before they met the guy, but once it reached the point it did it's silly to expect the cops to do much thinking beyond oh poo poo->shoot. It's justified by the hosed up standards we have in the US, correct. I would like those changed. I do expect more. Like expect them to realize that putting their hands on their guns and yelling at a mentally unstable person might make the situation worse, and when they do that they should be held responsible for the outcome. nm posted:My problem is your getting to a point where force was needed. It shouldn't have been needed. It is a deadly weapon but that wasn't a deadly situation.
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Mar 19, 2015 00:46
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Rent-A-Cop posted:Nope, still hurts. Taser hurts too, but not as much. no i can attest to that too, mace sucks a lot
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Mar 19, 2015 00:48
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nm posted:Most police vests are not stab resistant. Which is stupid as hell, but doesn't help you once someone is coming at you with a stabbing weapon. Do you really think an unsharpened screwdriver is going to penetrate a vest and inflict a lethal wound? Again it's possible, but it's also possible that he could have reached over and broken the cop's neck with one hand like Antonio Banderas in Assassins. semper wifi posted:I don't understand where you're going with your line of posting here. Surely you will admit that being stabbed with a screwdriver can be fatal and will at least result in serious injury. It's not surprising that you don't understand, because you seem very used to compliantly agreeing with hazy cop logic that a screwdriver is just as dangerous as a knife and warrants the same instant killing.
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Mar 19, 2015 00:48
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SedanChair posted:What are you saying "nope" for? Did you contradict me? I don't think you did because I never said it didn't hurt, only that police in training would be more likely to be capable of deliberate actions after being sprayed than somebody off the street. I don't think having it explained to you in a classroom for a half hour before you get sprayed makes much of a difference, but if you're willing to offer some kind of proof that it does I'm willing to concede the point.
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Mar 19, 2015 00:48
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Condiv posted:no i can attest to that too, mace sucks a lot I have a friend who's an MP, and just recently got tased and hit with OC spray, and he described spray as way worse. I love calling bullshit on folks who talk like they would still gently caress people up after getting peppersprayed.
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Mar 19, 2015 00:49
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Rent-A-Cop posted:In no way do any of the chemicals in pepper spray render you incapable of "deliberate action." That's my point. It hurts like poo poo, but if you don't care because you're nuts, or wasted, or just hard as nails well then it doesn't do much good. It's effectiveness is mostly in people not wanting to feel like their face is on fire and generally reacting to that feeling with panic. Well since mentally ill people don't feel pain I guess just shoot then
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Mar 19, 2015 00:50
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You know, the best thing about police threads is that we essentially learn that anything less than a gun is too dangerous to use in any situation you might actually use it. It's essentially an admittance that cops go from 0 to shoot-to-kill in any situation beyond complete compliance and that pepperspray and tasers are used to punish people, not as a less lethal option.
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Mar 19, 2015 00:52
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Rent-A-Cop posted:In no way do any of the chemicals in pepper spray render you incapable of "deliberate action." That's my point. It hurts like poo poo, but if you don't care because you're nuts, or wasted, or just hard as nails well then it doesn't do much good. It's effectiveness is mostly in people not wanting to feel like their face is on fire and generally reacting to that feeling with panic. This is how police psych themselves up before a killing. "He's nuts, he's wasted, he's hard as nails."
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Mar 19, 2015 00:52
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Was it a Phillips head?
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Mar 19, 2015 00:52
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Zeitgueist posted:I have a friend who's an MP, and just recently got tased and hit with OC spray, and he described spray as way worse. Bob James posted:Was it a Phillips head? Rent-A-Cop fucked around with this message at 00:56 on Mar 19, 2015 |
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Mar 19, 2015 00:53
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Bob James posted:Was it a Phillips head? If it's a flathead, that counts as an edged weapon and is even further justification for the the shooting (my justification standards are incredibly low).
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Mar 19, 2015 00:55
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Rent-A-Cop posted:The spray is definitely way more painful. Taser only hurts for a few seconds really, but I don't know how anyone could walk that thing off. I totally thought I was gonna hard man it but it's like getting hit by Mike Tyson. One second you're standing up, then you're not. But what if you're "hard as nails"?
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Mar 19, 2015 00:56
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Rent-A-Cop posted:The spray is definitely way more painful. Taser only hurts for a few seconds really, but I don't know how anyone could walk that thing off. I totally thought I was gonna hard man it but it's like getting hit by Mike Tyson. One second you're standing up, then you're not. Yeah, he said the complete loss of body control was more disconcerting, but way less painful. My argument is that "holy poo poo pepperspray" is not me having an overly harsh reaction, it's more than enough to take out anyone less beefy than Halfthor, and the whole "insane guy on angel-dust hulking up" is more of a bullshit anecdote. I don't buy it.
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Mar 19, 2015 00:56
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Bob James posted:Was it a Phillips head? This is a good point. A knife can cut through kevlar, and a flat head at the right angle might be able to cut through the kevlar, but it's unlikely. A phillips probably wouldn't go through at all
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Mar 19, 2015 00:56
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SedanChair posted:It's not surprising that you don't understand, because you seem very used to compliantly agreeing with hazy cop logic that a screwdriver is just as dangerous as a knife and warrants the same instant killing. Is a screwdriver somewhere below a knife on the "danger" scale? Sure. Is it still capable of killing someone? Sure. Do the police have a duty to let the guy stab them with a screwdriver while they try to beat him to the ground with batons/fumble with OC spray/try to tase him? Nope.
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Mar 19, 2015 00:57
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semper wifi posted:Is a screwdriver somewhere below a knife on the "danger" scale? Sure. Is it still capable of killing someone? Sure. Do the police have a duty to let the guy stab them with a screwdriver while they try to beat him to the ground with batons/fumble with OC spray/try to tase him? Nope. No, their duty is to kill anyone who isn't kneeling on the ground, we get it.
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Mar 19, 2015 00:58
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I'm going to go ahead and remind everyone in this thread that police in other countries manage to handle stuff like this all the time, without using deadly force. We should ban everyday cops from carrying guns, and bring in specially trained officers whenever more force is necessary (active shooter scenarios, etc).
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Mar 19, 2015 00:59
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