Liturgical Christianity: Weird Catholic Twitter

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System Metternich: Feb 28, 2010; But what did he mean by that?

FWIW, here's a 17th/18th century list of insults for which my Bavarian hometown had the right to punish its citizens: Hundsfott (dog's oval office; this was one of the most popular insults back then), Pernheiter (bear skinner, I believe?), Narr (fool), Raup (not sure, could come from Raupe, "caterpillar", or R�uber, "robber"), Flegel (lout), T�lpel (dolt), Hurensohn (son of a whore), verlogener Mann (lying man), Hex (witch), Unhold (fiend), Hexer (warlock), Hure (whore), Lump (er, blackguard? Bounder? No idea how to translate that), Bube (knave), Lotter (a slovenly person, I guess), Schalk (rascal), Spieler (gambler), L�gner (liar). Many of those "Verbalinjurien", i.e. verbal insults, tend to go in the direction of accusing each other of being dishonourable as Hegel said, for example by calling another craftsman a "Fretter" i.e. someone who doesn't know his craft and works outside of a guild, implying that they were bad Christians, accusing say a baker of diluting his flour or overweighing his bread, claiming that the mayor was admitting foreign craftsmen into the city and so on. Generally I get the impression that people back then had a much more impressive command of insults than we do. I mean, once a man of my hometown called the councilmen "Schei�k�belb�ndter" (poo poo bucket coopers), how could I ever compare to this? :v:

I really wish there was an easy possibility to look these insults by Luther up in their original German, most of there are amazing.

e: Another great example (though admittedly much later) is out of the 1916 drama "Die Rumplhanni", where the protagonist is once called a "Parasolflickersbankert", which translates as "illegitimate child of a parasol repairman" :allears:

System Metternich fucked around with this message at 11:00 on Mar 16, 2015

# ? Mar 16, 2015 10:44

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# ? Jun 8, 2024 23:04

HEY GUNS: Oct 11, 2012; FOPTIMUS PRIME

System Metternich posted:

...calling another craftsman a "Fretter" i.e. someone who doesn't know his craft and works outside of a guild...

Similarly, a fight started when one of my subjects said to another one: "You have received money from the lords [enrolled in an army] twice but only gone out [zog fort, gone on campaign] once!"

quote:

Generally I get the impression that people back then had a much more impressive command of insults than we do. I mean, once a man of my hometown called the councilmen "Schei�k�belb�ndter" (poo poo bucket coopers), how could I ever compare to this?

My guys actually don't, it's the same four or five insults over and over. Their slang in general is more elaborate than their cuss words, or the insulting things that they say without cussing: "I want to beat you your whole life long," for instance.

I wonder if this is because there's no guarantee, in a mercenary company, whether the dude you want to cuss out is a native speaker? Why would you waste "Schei�k�belb�ndter" on an Englishman?

HEY GUNS fucked around with this message at 11:10 on Mar 16, 2015

# ? Mar 16, 2015 10:58

System Metternich: Feb 28, 2010; But what did he mean by that?

HEY GAL posted:

I wonder if this is because there's no guarantee, in a mercenary company, whether the dude you want to cuss out is a native speaker? Why would you waste "Schei�k�belb�ndter" on an Englishman?

Sounds reasonable. I take it that those mercenary troops weren't segregated by language or nations, but mixed instead? I don't know the first thing about them.

And to at least make a token effort to stay on topic: were they religiously mixed as well, or did Catholic lords only hire Catholic mercenaries etc.?

e: Without context, "zog fort" sounds like a made up alien language

# ? Mar 16, 2015 11:13

HEY GUNS: Oct 11, 2012; FOPTIMUS PRIME

System Metternich posted:

Sounds reasonable. I take it that those mercenary troops weren't segregated by language or nations, but mixed instead? I don't know the first thing about them.

Captains raise their companies, usually in their home territories, so they tend to be from certain areas, but that's accident rather than essence. Then as the company gets older, people will leave and new people will come in, and those can be from anywhere. I found one company where there were five or six English pikemen for...some reason.

quote:

And to at least make a token effort to stay on topic: were they religiously mixed as well, or did Catholic lords only hire Catholic mercenaries etc.?

Religiously mixed, and everyone's fine with it. I have never heard any of my subjects refer to anyone else's religion in a derogatory manner. You'll get "Hundsfott," "Bestia," etc, but no "papist" or "heretic." And commanding officers allow their soldiers to practice whatever religion they choose, at least in Germany. Here's another post i made on the topic:

HEY GAL posted:

Peter Burschel's Soeldner im Nordwestdeutschland des 16. und 17. Jahrhunderts...mentioned that he is aware of no case in which warlords forbade common soldiers whom they knew to be of a different religion from themselves to practice their religion openly. For instance, when a regiment of Swedish dragoons wanted to enter the service of the prince-bishop Christoph Bernhard von Galen in 1676, he allowed them to hold Protestant services freely.

He also mentions that when Tilly took Goettigen in 1626 he refrained from restricting the Protestant churches (which he would have been within his rights to do) only out of concern for his Protestant soldiers. (And this isn't a guy like Pappenheim, who was raised Calvinist and converted to Catholicism because he was a huge history nerd and he went to Rome once, Tilly was a straightforward soul who never really wrapped his mind around why anyone would even think of changing from the religion which had been good enough for everyone since the beginning of Christianity.)

These guys will stab each other at the slightest provocation, but don't you dare insult someone else's faith. That's a personal choice and it's private.

HEY GUNS fucked around with this message at 11:27 on Mar 16, 2015

# ? Mar 16, 2015 11:23

Lutha Mahtin: Oct 10, 2010; Your brokebrain sin is absolved...go and shitpost no more!

System Metternich posted:

Spieler (gambler)

Doesn't this literally mean "gamer"? :lol:

# ? Mar 16, 2015 19:48

Smoking Crow: Feb 14, 2012; *laughs at u*

Lutha Mahtin posted:

Doesn't this literally mean "gamer"?

Yes, that was a common synonym for gambling before video games existed. This is where we get the Nevada Gaming Control Board which oversees casinos

# ? Mar 16, 2015 20:51

Jedi Knight Luigi: Jul 13, 2009

Lutha Mahtin posted:

Doesn't this literally mean "gamer"?

I think it could also mean "player" in the stage sense.

# ? Mar 16, 2015 21:56

System Metternich: Feb 28, 2010; But what did he mean by that?

Jedi Knight Luigi posted:

I think it could also mean "player" in the stage sense.

It could, but in virtually all cases a "Schau-" prefix is added for actors. Just "Spieler" alone usually signifies a player in some sort of game: sports, board or video games and finally gambling. When no context is given at all (e.g. "He is a Spieler") it mostly refers to the latter.

e: I almost forgot to add: thanks HEGEL for your explanation, that's super interesting! You do mostly work on 17th-century mercs in the years leading up to and during the Thirty Years War, right? I was wondering if this sort of laissez-faire attitude would have been possible in the 18th century as well - while religious conflict got much less violent in German and moved more to the field of legal battles instead, it seems to me that paradoxically the social divide between the denominations widened even more. There are reports that for citizens of the (religiously mixed) Free City of Augsburg it was trivial to recognise whether they were talking to a Protestant or a Catholic based on the clothing, which apparently differed in several important details (this only became a thing after the Peace of Westphalia iirc), and there is at least on author of the time who honestly claimed that Catholic women were batting their eyes differently from Protestants. Not to speak of Catholics shopping only at Catholic-owned shops, Protestants doing the same etc.

System Metternich fucked around with this message at 00:43 on Mar 17, 2015

# ? Mar 17, 2015 00:27

Worthleast: Nov 25, 2012; Possibly the only speedboat jumps I've planned

Happy St. Patrick's day Liturgigoons!

# ? Mar 17, 2015 23:23

HEY GUNS: Oct 11, 2012; FOPTIMUS PRIME

System Metternich posted:

e: I almost forgot to add: thanks HEGEL for your explanation, that's super interesting! You do mostly work on 17th-century mercs in the years leading up to and during the Thirty Years War, right?

Just during, but yes! And some 18th century German armies were religiously tolerant, but some were not. It depended on the "state." (I like to refer to the component parts of the Empire as "political entities.") I seem to remember there are some articles on the topic in this book:
http://www.amg-fnz.de/workshop-zu-goettingen-2002-militaer-und-religiositaet-in-der-fruehen-neuzeit/

Edit: Even the Spanish army in the 17th century is religiously tolerant; I remember reading about a case where a Tercio nearly mutinied because an inexperienced officer tried to force them to attend Mass. Most of them were Germans. It was quietly dropped.

Edit 2: The Swedish army in the areas of Germany it occupied after the Thirty Years' War did not require Catholic legal witnesses to take Lutheran oaths out of consideration for them.

HEY GUNS fucked around with this message at 23:59 on Mar 17, 2015

# ? Mar 17, 2015 23:39

Smoking Crow: Feb 14, 2012; *laughs at u*

Protopresbyter Thomas Hopko received unction from Met. Tikhon and has been moved to hospice.

# ? Mar 18, 2015 00:33

Cythereal: Nov 8, 2009; I love the potoo,
and the potoo loves you.

It feels right that the MilHist thread is leaking into the Liturgical Christianity thread.

# ? Mar 18, 2015 01:18

Rodrigo Diaz: Apr 16, 2007; Knights who are at the wars eat their bread in sorrow;
their ease is weariness and sweat;
they have one good day after many bad

Smoking Crow posted:

Protopresbyter Thomas Hopko received unction from Met. Tikhon and has been moved to hospice.

See ya later, Tommy. Memory Eternal.

# ? Mar 18, 2015 07:56

Lutha Mahtin: Oct 10, 2010; Your brokebrain sin is absolved...go and shitpost no more!

Smoking Crow posted:

Yes, that was a common synonym for gambling before video games existed. This is where we get the Nevada Gaming Control Board which oversees casinos

I just wanted to imagine a town branding all its mouthbreathing misogynists with the shameful title of "gamer", OK? You're taking all the fun out of it :mad:

# ? Mar 18, 2015 13:37

Needs More Ditka: Dec 3, 2005; We are ruthless and ask no quarter from you. When our turn comes we shall not disguise our terrorism.

Now that everything is finally official, on Saturday my wife and I are having our marriage convalidated and I'm going to be Baptized at the Easter Vigil. I'm really excited and thanks to all the Goons that helped me make this decision and stick with it!

# ? Mar 19, 2015 04:44

Mr. Wiggles: Dec 1, 2003; We are all drinking from the highball glass of ideology.

Hey, good for you.

# ? Mar 19, 2015 06:13

Spacewolf: May 19, 2014

*applause* Welcome to the big, crazy Catholic communion. We put the fun in dysfunctional.

# ? Mar 19, 2015 17:00

Worthleast: Nov 25, 2012; Possibly the only speedboat jumps I've planned

Needs More Ditka posted:

Now that everything is finally official, on Saturday my wife and I are having our marriage convalidated and I'm going to be Baptized at the Easter Vigil. I'm really excited and thanks to all the Goons that helped me make this decision and stick with it!

That's great!

In not so great news, Bishop Richard Williamson, who was kicked out of the SSPX for being crazy, is going to be excommunicated for consecrating a bishop without permission from Pope Francis. You may remember him for denying the holocaust and thinking the SSPX is too liberal. Not too many excommunications coming down these days, but this one is pretty clear.

# ? Mar 19, 2015 17:26

Konstantin: Jun 20, 2005; And the Lord said, "Look, they are one people, and they have all one language; and this is only the beginning of what they will do; nothing that they propose to do will now be impossible for them.

A minor point, he's already excommunicated, and the Church is merely confirming that fact. When someone commits an act with a penalty of automatic excommunication, such as trying to consecrate a bishop without papal approval, they are excommunicated at that moment, even if nobody else knows about it. This sort of thing rarely comes up, since very few offenses have this penalty, and almost all of them (except abortion) involve a priest or bishop doing something Very Bad.

# ? Mar 19, 2015 20:31

System Metternich: Feb 28, 2010; But what did he mean by that?

Trying to assassinate the Pope incurs that too iirc, and I don't think that that's a prerogative of the ordained :v:

# ? Mar 19, 2015 21:39

HEY GUNS: Oct 11, 2012; FOPTIMUS PRIME

System Metternich posted:

Trying to assassinate the Pope incurs that too iirc, and I don't think that that's a prerogative of the ordained

What if you kill him in combat

# ? Mar 19, 2015 22:13

StashAugustine: Mar 24, 2013; Do not trust in hope- it will betray you! Only faith and hatred sustain.

thought this was the crusader kings thread for a second

# ? Mar 19, 2015 22:18

Cythereal: Nov 8, 2009; I love the potoo,
and the potoo loves you.

StashAugustine posted:

thought this was the crusader kings thread for a second

If this was the crusader kings thread we'd be asking about the procedures involved when the Aztecs invading Europe captured the Pope as they overran Rome and tore his beating heart from his chest atop a pyramid built from the rubble of Saint Peter's Basilica.

# ? Mar 20, 2015 00:45

Powered Descent: Jul 13, 2008; We haven't had that spirit here since 1969.

Konstantin posted:

A minor point, he's already excommunicated, and the Church is merely confirming that fact. When someone commits an act with a penalty of automatic excommunication, such as trying to consecrate a bishop without papal approval, they are excommunicated at that moment, even if nobody else knows about it. This sort of thing rarely comes up, since very few offenses have this penalty, and almost all of them (except abortion) involve a priest or bishop doing something Very Bad.

System Metternich posted:

Trying to assassinate the Pope incurs that too iirc, and I don't think that that's a prerogative of the ordained

According to the wikipedia article, all it takes is to be an apostate, heretic, or schismatic, and bam, you're excommunicated lata sententia.

And depending on your standards for what counts as "heresy", you could probably argue that a great big chunk of churchgoing Catholics are technically excommunicated.

# ? Mar 20, 2015 01:03

PantlessBadger: May 7, 2008

Needs More Ditka posted:

Now that everything is finally official, on Saturday my wife and I are having our marriage convalidated and I'm going to be Baptized at the Easter Vigil. I'm really excited and thanks to all the Goons that helped me make this decision and stick with it!

Congratulations! I was baptised last Easter, which made for an extremely meaningful Lent. Blessings on you and your wife!

With respect to automatic excommunication, does being a goon cause automatic excommunication in the Roman Catholic Church?

# ? Mar 20, 2015 04:54

StashAugustine: Mar 24, 2013; Do not trust in hope- it will betray you! Only faith and hatred sustain.

USER WAS EXCOMMUNICATED FOR THIS POST

# ? Mar 20, 2015 05:02

Mr. Wiggles: Dec 1, 2003; We are all drinking from the highball glass of ideology.

In other news, I'm now a Knight of Columbus. Makes me feel kind of like an old guy, but it continues a long family tradition.

# ? Mar 20, 2015 05:03

Arnold of Soissons: Mar 4, 2011; by XyloJW

Konstantin posted:

A minor point, he's already excommunicated, and the Church is merely confirming that fact. When someone commits an act with a penalty of automatic excommunication, such as trying to consecrate a bishop without papal approval, they are excommunicated at that moment, even if nobody else knows about it. This sort of thing rarely comes up, since very few offenses have this penalty, and almost all of them (except abortion) involve a priest or bishop doing something Very Bad.

Which is important because the Church can find out a priest did something that caused him to be excommunicated months ago, and that retroactively voids any sacraments he doled out in between, right?

# ? Mar 20, 2015 11:09

System Metternich: Feb 28, 2010; But what did he mean by that?

It makes them illicit but not invalid. A priest or bishop who was ordained within the apostolic succession recognised by the church and according to the prescribed rites is a priest/bishop, no way around it. If you receive the Eucharist by a priest who's been excommunicated, it is still a "true" Eucharist, but the Church strongly discourages attending such a mass and maybe would even punish you for it, I don't know.

# ? Mar 20, 2015 11:16

Lutha Mahtin: Oct 10, 2010; Your brokebrain sin is absolved...go and shitpost no more!

What's the abortion thing you guys mentioned that triggers an autoban? I would hope it doesn't apply to every woman who's had the procedure :stare:

# ? Mar 20, 2015 16:41

Worthleast: Nov 25, 2012; Possibly the only speedboat jumps I've planned

Lutha Mahtin posted:

What's the abortion thing you guys mentioned that triggers an autoban? I would hope it doesn't apply to every woman who's had the procedure

And the doctors and anyone who counselled her to do it.

# ? Mar 20, 2015 17:07

Patrick Spens: Jul 21, 2006; "Every quarterback says they've got guts, But how many have actually seen 'em?"; Pillbug

Wikipedia posted:

Excommunications
a person who procures a completed abortion;

Would this also apply to someone who murdered their already born child? Or do you only get the autoban for abortion?

Wikipedia posted:

Excommunications
a priest who uses confession as a pretext to solicit the penitent to break the commandment against adultery

Interdicts
falsely denouncing a confessor for soliciting a penitent to sin against the commandment against adultery.

I'm betting the story behind this was awesome.

# ? Mar 20, 2015 19:35

Cythereal: Nov 8, 2009; I love the potoo,
and the potoo loves you.

Patrick Spens posted:

I'm betting the story behind this was awesome.

From what I've read, that was actually pretty common during the Middle Ages and Renaissance. :v:

The Catholic Church has a very long history of sordid activities if my history books on those periods are accurate.

# ? Mar 20, 2015 20:02

HEY GUNS: Oct 11, 2012; FOPTIMUS PRIME

Patrick Spens posted:

Would this also apply to someone who murdered their already born child?

You don't get autobanned for murder, just abortion.

# ? Mar 20, 2015 20:24

Smoking Crow: Feb 14, 2012; *laughs at u*

HEY GAL posted:

You don't get autobanned for murder, just abortion.

Iirc, murder used to be grounds for excommunication, but when the Celtic penitential system became standard, it became more lenient.

For instance, there is a proscribed way to repent if you are a bishop and have sex with an unmarried woman and then kill your illegitimate child

# ? Mar 20, 2015 20:28

ProperGanderPusher: Jan 13, 2012

Cythereal posted:

From what I've read, that was actually pretty common during the Middle Ages and Renaissance. The Catholic Church has a very long history of sordid activities if my history books on those periods are accurate.

Much like most institutions that are made up of people.

# ? Mar 20, 2015 21:18

Worthleast: Nov 25, 2012; Possibly the only speedboat jumps I've planned

Patrick Spens posted:

I'm betting the story behind this was awesome.

The faithful are bound strictly to denounce anyone who does that, I think even under pain of mortal sin. The Church makes a big deal out of it. You don't mess with the confessional.

I think Infanticide is a worse sin, but does not carry the same penalty.

# ? Mar 20, 2015 22:05

Patrick Spens: Jul 21, 2006; "Every quarterback says they've got guts, But how many have actually seen 'em?"; Pillbug

HEY GAL posted:

You don't get autobanned for murder, just abortion.

Why?

# ? Mar 20, 2015 22:34

Aisha: Sep 25, 2009; I've heard of households where the boys have to do equal amounts of laundry/cooking/cleaning/babysitting etc. but I have never seen one in real life.

Patrick Spens posted:

Why?

Killing children in utero has become more acceptable in some areas of society (even encouraged depending on the circumstances), so making it an excommunicable offense draws attention to the gravity of abortion.

The effects of automatic excommunication are not too different than the effects of any other mortal sin, someone who murders an adult is still barred from communion until they confess and receive absolution.

# ? Mar 20, 2015 23:00

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# ? Jun 8, 2024 23:04

Needs More Ditka: Dec 3, 2005; We are ruthless and ask no quarter from you. When our turn comes we shall not disguise our terrorism.

Patrick Spens posted:

Why?

To be honest, in this context, excommunication is just a big scary word for "sin the church has decided to highlight because reasons." A confession will lift it in most cases just as any other mortal sin. The Church has lifted other popularly accepted sins to excommunication before, but my Google-fu is coming short on examples.

Basically, infanticide would probably be excommunicable if everybody thought it was OK.

# ? Mar 21, 2015 02:44

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