|
Droyer posted:While I agree with you in regards to GGG, I'm not sure that's always true. You can, for example have a character perform heinous actions in pursuit of a noble goal, and have other characters try to stop him not because they disagree with his goal, but with his actions. I probably worded it weirdly for purposes of general arguement. But yeah, what I mean is, grey usually means you can outright question beliefs or actions performed by parties. At least, thats how i usually see it.
|
#
?
Mar 19, 2015 16:57
|
|
|
|
| # ? Jun 9, 2024 00:26 |
|
|
The Dinosaur Empire were also dinosaurs which means that at least half of the human population would've been down with them
|
|
#
?
Mar 19, 2015 16:57
|
|
|
Blaze Dragon posted:On that note, what super robot series are there that aren't black-and-white in morality? I can definitely think of the Getter Robo manga, which was one of the things I really liked about it (besides, you know, everything else), with the "good side" becoming less and less clear as the series went on, to the point that Ryoma seemed to be set entirely as the final villain of the series. Let's see GGG, Big O, maybe a few others I can't think off the top of my head. Suprising a lot of Super Robot shows are actually black and black, like Getter Armageddon (can't speak for the manga) and Gurren Lagann.
|
|
#
?
Mar 19, 2015 17:08
|
|
|
Blaze Dragon posted:On that note, what super robot series are there that aren't black-and-white in morality? I can definitely think of the Getter Robo manga, which was one of the things I really liked about it (besides, you know, everything else), with the "good side" becoming less and less clear as the series went on, to the point that Ryoma seemed to be set entirely as the final villain of the series. You could argue Gun x Sword. Edit: Zearth too, inasmuch that there's a malevolent force controlling everything, but everyone else is in the samesituation as the heroes. Droyer fucked around with this message at 17:16 on Mar 19, 2015 |
|
#
?
Mar 19, 2015 17:13
|
|
|
Very few super robot shows are white on black. It is very very rare for the hero side not to have morally ambiguous elements even when they're facing guys named Dr. Hell or Killer The Butcher.
|
|
#
?
Mar 19, 2015 17:15
|
|
|
Clawshrimpy posted:Let's see Again demonstrating that you don't understand the black/white/grey distinction. Rosewaters pretty clearly evil what with happily having a stagelight fall on a bunch of poors. The invaders are an obnoxious mass shifting version of The Thing that want to wipe out humanity because it'd be convenient. We've covered gurren lagann and you being unfit to argue around it so just drop it already. ImpAtom posted:or Killer The Butcher.
|
|
#
?
Mar 19, 2015 17:16
|
|
|
Artum posted:Do tell. The bad guy from Zambot 3 which was hella grey, the collateral damage the heroes cause being a major plot point.
|
|
#
?
Mar 19, 2015 17:19
|
|
|
Artum posted:Do tell. A big point in Zambot 3 is that the subliminal battle-training they gave the kids is actually uncomfortable and creepy. It was a necessity to stop the invasion but it hosed them up pretty good, and the final boss has some rants about how humans are shitheads. It ends with two kids killing themselves and the third breaking down into tears over the enormity of what happened. That doesn't change the fact Killer the Butcher is a cartoonish horrifying monster who puts human bombs into people so they explode.
|
|
#
?
Mar 19, 2015 17:19
|
|
|
Droyer posted:You could argue Gun x Sword. At the very least Vaan's motivations are driven out of a personal desire rather than wanting to save the day. That he saves everyone in the process is a nice side benefit. Kina reminds me of Luffy in that regard.
|
|
#
?
Mar 19, 2015 17:20
|
|
|
Not sure if it counts as grey but ideon was really good about presenting a really lovely situation with no clear answer for the protagonists. I mean you could argue they are the good guys because they are just trying to survive but they are doing so by feeding a horrible universe destroying machine.
|
|
#
?
Mar 19, 2015 17:25
|
|
|
Artum posted:Again demonstrating that you don't understand the black/white/grey distinction. Sure Rosewater is evil, but what about Schwartzvald? Or how about Beck? Yeah the Invaders and Saotome are clearly evil, but my point with Getter Armageddon is that Ryouma and Hayato are just as bad if not worse.
|
|
#
?
Mar 19, 2015 17:26
|
|
|
Evangelion too, can't believe I forgot about that one.
|
|
#
?
Mar 19, 2015 17:27
|
|
|
Clawshrimpy posted:Getter Armageddon is that Ryouma and Hayato are just as bad if not worse. How? You don't get to make a statement like that and not back it up.
|
|
#
?
Mar 19, 2015 17:28
|
|
|
Artum posted:How? You don't get to make a statement like that and not back it up. In Armageddon at least Ryouma is portrayed as some dude who just loves killing things and killing invaders just allows him to work out his desire for murder. Hayato is just kind of a cold, uncaring rear end in a top hat.
|
|
#
?
Mar 19, 2015 17:31
|
|
|
It sounds like your logic here is that intentions trump the actual actions taken, in other words.
|
|
#
?
Mar 19, 2015 17:35
|
|
|
Clawshrimpy posted:In Armageddon at least Ryouma is portrayed as some dude who just loves killing things and killing invaders just allows him to work out his desire for murder. Right, but how is that "just as bad, if not worse" than wanting to kill all non-invader life on the planet?
|
|
#
?
Mar 19, 2015 17:35
|
|
|
Ah right he should have been all "oh noble rear end in a top hat space parasites you vex me but I shall do what I must to save the earth!" Ryoma is without a doubt a violent guy but considering he doesn't go around fighting people who don't need to be fought, saying that makes him as bad as horrific space aliens looking to commit... terracide(?) is frankly asinine. Doubly so for "well this guy is kind of a jerk, which is worse than literal genocide".
|
|
#
?
Mar 19, 2015 17:37
|
|
|
That makes them psychotic, not actively evil, and whilst the two are commonly conflated in fiction, one does not necessarily mean the other in real life - and the conflation really pisses off those mental health workers trying to do their jobs whilst dealing with the stigma. So Ryoma and Hayato would qualify as being morally grey - of questionable morals and methods, but nevertheless of good intention (namely, stop the Invaders). I'd say one (kinda) super robot show with some regularly distributed grey morality is Zoids, particularly in the first two seasons - albeit mostly with the empire as being a darker shade thanks to the likes of Prozen and such. Once someone more reasonable was in charge, peace came about pretty quickly (though one imagines that fighting a giant doomsday weapon helps vent frustrations). Edit: Geez, one misplaced word throws off my intent.
|
|
#
?
Mar 19, 2015 17:37
|
|
|
See, that's really not the definition of black and white. Black and white good vs. evil. Straight up, no compromises, knights in shining armor on one side, evil dragon wanting to burn the world to cinders on the other. Gray and grey would be if say, the dragon wanted revenge against the company of knights for murdering his mate and stealing his eggs, and the knights were simply protecting their homes and at least one of them feels pretty bad about the whole making dragon omelets thing. Ryoma's crazy, yes, and certainly Hayato's a bit of an rear end in a top hat. But they're crazy assholes who want to defend the Earth, which is a redeeming quality, and by definition, is gray/grey/whatever.
|
|
#
?
Mar 19, 2015 17:38
|
|
|
Droyer posted:Right, but how is that "just as bad, if not worse" than wanting to kill all non-invader life on the planet? His huge desire to murder the professor, for example.
|
|
#
?
Mar 19, 2015 17:40
|
|
|
Also I don't really recall the Armageddon version of Ryouma going all "I wanna fight and KILL THINGS" very much. Hayato is still a jerk though. He always is.
|
|
#
?
Mar 19, 2015 17:40
|
|
|
Nah I'd say it's pretty black and white. the Getter team is right, the invaders are wrong.Clawshrimpy posted:His huge desire to murder the professor, for example. tjat is in no way comparable to the genocide of an entire planet
|
|
#
?
Mar 19, 2015 17:40
|
|
|
Clawshrimpy posted:His huge desire to murder the professor, for example. In this particular version of the Professor, he kinda went batshit crazy after his daughter died in an accident and decided "Why yes, those Invaders have the right idea, let's consume the galaxy together, chums!"
|
|
#
?
Mar 19, 2015 17:41
|
|
|
And also at that point the professor's dead and is an invader sockpuppet anyway (not that ryoma knows that)
|
|
#
?
Mar 19, 2015 17:42
|
|
|
Considering the poo poo you see Saotome do, it's hella understandable why someone would want him dead.
|
|
#
?
Mar 19, 2015 17:42
|
|
|
Clawshrimpy posted:His huge desire to murder the professor, for example. The guy who Ryoma spent years in jail framed for the murder of showed up 1) not dead and 2) batting for the other team trying to destroy the world, its a justified response.
|
|
#
?
Mar 19, 2015 17:44
|
|
|
Clawshrimpy posted:Let's see GGG is for the most part a black and white series. The antagonist are there to destroy or subjugate humanity and monster of the week don't count since they are just humans slaved to serve. Getter Armageddon is pretty black and white as well. Ryouma and Hayato's actions while extreme and borderline crazy are still for the sake of defending humanity from the Invaders. Hayato even helps establish a defense force during the time jump. Ryouma gets Rip Van Winkled ahead in time but knows that he still has to stop Dr. Saotome and by extension the invaders. Most super robot shows are black and white. To say something is black and black means that both sides have no redeeming motives.
|
|
#
?
Mar 19, 2015 17:45
|
|
|
I misread his original post and thought it said black and white then realized he was claiming those shows were both "black and black" and lol
|
|
#
?
Mar 19, 2015 17:45
|
|
|
Artum posted:Ah right he should have been all "oh noble rear end in a top hat space parasites you vex me but I shall do what I must to save the earth!" But he and Hayato are definitely more evil and harder to root for than Go and Kei were, and it's sad their role in the story was so small.
|
|
#
?
Mar 19, 2015 17:46
|
|
|
Clawshrimpy posted:His huge desire to murder the professor, for example. How is the intent to kill one man just as bad or worse than wanting to kill all humans and all animal and plant life?
|
|
#
?
Mar 19, 2015 17:48
|
|
|
Droyer posted:How is the intent to kill one man just as bad or worse than wanting to kill all humans and all animal and plant life? What I'm saying it's hard to see it as black and white when guys like that are the "white" side.
|
|
#
?
Mar 19, 2015 17:50
|
|
|
Clawshrimpy posted:But he and Hayato are definitely more evil and harder to root for than Go and Kei were, and it's sad their role in the story was so small. They're not evil they're just kind of crazy. When all your actions are based around killing giant monsters to save peoples lives with the intention of saving the world you literally are not evil. Clawshrimpy posted:What I'm saying it's hard to see it as black and white when guys like that are the "white" side. It really, really, really is not.
|
|
#
?
Mar 19, 2015 17:51
|
|
|
I'm not going to try to argue about what is or is not "grey" or dispute the dumb "worse than planet destroying monsters" thing but not being able to root for characters with flaws (massive or otherwise) that are trying to do something that is objectively good is hosed.
|
|
#
?
Mar 19, 2015 17:51
|
|
|
no it isn't, they're fighting against a genocidal race of goo monsters, and they're not like eating dogs along the way or sacrificing humans to gor
|
|
#
?
Mar 19, 2015 17:51
|
|
|
eating dogs is totally something benkei would do but i don't remember if he's even in armageddon
|
|
#
?
Mar 19, 2015 17:52
|
|
|
Clawshrimpy posted:What I'm saying it's hard to see it as black and white when guys like that are the "white" side. No, what you said was that Ryoma and Hayato are just as bad if not worse than the invaders. Either defend that claim or admit you were wrong, but stop moving goalposts. Edit: spelling Droyer fucked around with this message at 17:55 on Mar 19, 2015 |
|
#
?
Mar 19, 2015 17:53
|
|
|
Artum posted:Not even gonna ask. I am not making this up.
|
|
#
?
Mar 19, 2015 17:53
|
|
|
muike posted:eating dogs is totally something benkei would do but i don't remember if he's even in armageddon He's mostly Kei's dad.
|
|
#
?
Mar 19, 2015 17:53
|
|
|
Zereth posted:You remember the band in the cantina on Tatooine? They're playing a musical style called "jizz wailing". That is extremely funny and I regret not asking, thank you.
|
|
#
?
Mar 19, 2015 17:54
|
|
|
|
| # ? Jun 9, 2024 00:26 |
|
|
Artum posted:He's mostly Kei's dad. OH yeah that's right. I think "what!! this boy is going to grow up to be a hot babe!!" is one of my favorite silly reveals in getter
|
|
#
?
Mar 19, 2015 17:54
|
|