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Now that basketball has internalized this efficiency logic I hope that we still get cool and bizarre players in the NBA. Three point shooting might be the most effective weapon in the game, but I watch to see weirdos like Giannis and Andre Miller that symbolize what basketball should be: an express of beauty and joy, not merely what scores the most points.
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Mar 19, 2015 13:57
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straight up brolic posted:Now that basketball has internalized this efficiency logic I hope that we still get cool and bizarre players in the NBA. Three point shooting might be the most effective weapon in the game, but I watch to see weirdos like Giannis and Andre Miller that symbolize what basketball should be: an express of beauty and joy, not merely what scores the most points. I don't see the 3 point shot as a risk to that, I just think you'll see more unrelenting gunners who launch at will, which is also beautiful.
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Mar 19, 2015 14:04
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News: Last night Marcus Smart put up 25 points, 9 rebounds, 5 assists, 2 steals, and 2 blocks on 8/14 shooting (7/12 from three). Views: He's pretty cool.
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Mar 19, 2015 14:11
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Lockback posted:GSW, Memphis, Atlanta, Cleveland. I would be very surprised if it wasn't one of those teams this year, giving us a new champion. I guess you should never count out SAS, but man. I think its time. I am also ready to admit Chicago probably isn't making that leap this year. I guess the Mavericks care maybe the most likely repeatish champion, but I would be surprised. Chicago has done nothing this year that says they could possibly be a champion. It really seems as if this is either Golden State or Cleveland's to lose. Obviously Cleveland has the concern of having not looked to great against the Hawks this year. I don't think there's a particular reason to count SAS out really. Aside from the fact that they aren't as good as the Warriors. They've hardly been healthy and when they have been they've by and large been dominant. They'd be looking a lot better this year if they gave a poo poo after getting up big in the second quarter.
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Mar 19, 2015 14:17
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Lockback posted:I don't see the 3 point shot as a risk to that, I just think you'll see more unrelenting gunners who launch at will, which is also beautiful.
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Mar 19, 2015 15:01
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Kibner posted:A writer at one of the Pelicans blogs is so very salty about foul calls in the Bucks game the other night. I think the rule should be: regular season- if you're mad about officiating, stop-- relax. Playoffs- feel free to complain about every single call. The pelicans are in a sort of elimination scenario but that is an incredible amount of bitching straight up brolic posted:Now that basketball has internalized this efficiency logic I hope that we still get cool and bizarre players in the NBA. Three point shooting might be the most effective weapon in the game, but I watch to see weirdos like Giannis and Andre Miller that symbolize what basketball should be: an express of beauty and joy, not merely what scores the most points. Dejan Bimble fucked around with this message at 15:24 on Mar 19, 2015 |
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Mar 19, 2015 15:09
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There appears to have been a large number of highly-touted point guards drafted the last few years that can't shoot, so I don't think there is as much impending doom as one may think.
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Mar 19, 2015 15:13
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straight up brolic posted:This is what you'd hope but since the mid-2000s when the game principally 'changed' we've already seen the game move from traditional center/pf towards all shooting lineups like the Warriors and Hawks are using. Every player on the court is getting more similar to every other one and thats not really good for what i like about basketball vis-a-vis other sports which is the soloist operating within a symphony Ehh, I dunno. I would agree you see more shooters, but I think you are seeing more defined roles on the floor, it's just not lining up with positions. If I look now, I would say the top 5 teams by record (lets say they are GSW, Atlanta, Cleveland, Memphis and Houston) all play pretty differently. What I think you are seeing die is the end of "PF does this, SG does that, PG does this" and instead seeing more fluid roles. edit: Unique player Rondo would like to show you his solo http://gfycat.com/PersonalImperfectGrub Lockback fucked around with this message at 15:25 on Mar 19, 2015 |
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Mar 19, 2015 15:15
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straight up brolic posted:what i like about basketball vis-a-vis other sports which is the soloist operating within a symphony this is a really good articulation for why I watch the sport
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Mar 19, 2015 15:33
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Lockback posted:Ehh, I dunno. I would agree you see more shooters, but I think you are seeing more defined roles on the floor, it's just not lining up with positions. http://www.vantagesports.com/#story/VEBh5ykAACoATu8_/new-defensive-positions-rethinking-the-standard-terms We could probably create new names for new positions on offense as well It's sort of a futbolization of basket, call atlanta, gsw, sas "total basket"
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Mar 19, 2015 15:39
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Lebron James is the modern day Johan Cruyff.
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Mar 19, 2015 15:43
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Turn back the clock on Wade and Birdman, is that team a contender?
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Mar 19, 2015 16:21
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MOVIE MAJICK posted:Turn back the clock on Wade and Birdman, is that team a contender? Adding healthy Bosh and McBob to current Wade/Birdman would probably vault them to top 3 in the east overnight.
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Mar 19, 2015 16:24
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MOVIE MAJICK posted:Turn back the clock on Wade and Birdman, is that team a contender? Absolutely, a healthy Wade in his prime is probably a better player than a healthy Kobe in his prime
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Mar 19, 2015 16:35
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MOVIE MAJICK posted:Turn back the clock on Wade and Birdman, is that team a contender? No. Fix up Bosh and yeah.
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Mar 19, 2015 16:43
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What if you added in a prime Haslem and Deng, 2008 Mario Chalmers, and got Beasley some of that drug from Limitless starring Bradley Cooper?
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Mar 19, 2015 16:43
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And if Shawne Williams revealed his true identity as a time traveling Jayson Williams from a dimension where he never committed murder?
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Mar 19, 2015 16:47
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Declan MacManus posted:Absolutely, a healthy Wade in his prime is probably a better player than a healthy Kobe in his prime I love Wade (and I've always felt he plays better within a team), but prime Kobe was incredible. Add another decent guard to this Heat team and they'd be pretty drat good, I think.
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Mar 19, 2015 17:13
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N:Post-game X-Rays on Enes Kanter (ankle) came back negative and revealed a mild sprain of his left ankle V: 
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Mar 19, 2015 17:15
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Spite posted:I love Wade (and I've always felt he plays better within a team), but prime Kobe was incredible. Another guard and any sort of bench at all would be a big help. Their bench is maybe the worst in the NBA
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Mar 19, 2015 17:23
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Declan MacManus posted:Absolutely, a healthy Wade in his prime is probably a better player than a healthy Kobe in his prime I'd take a healthy/prime Wade with Bennett Salvatore behind him ahead of prime Kobe, otherwise I'd give the edge to prime Kobe.
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Mar 19, 2015 17:33
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Dejan Bimble posted:http://www.vantagesports.com/#story/VEBh5ykAACoATu8_/new-defensive-positions-rethinking-the-standard-terms Contemporary analytics and 'statistics' are not descriptive, they didn't emerge from the ether, they are created by humans and they're aimed at an ideal of 'efficiency'. We operate under the assumption that analytics are 'good' for the game, and for teams they are, but I'm of the opinion that they'll lead to an NBA where variance from 'best practices' is scoffed at, and the current trend is certainly this. I'm not a Byron Scott fan for a litany of reasons, but people detesting the long two thing is symptomatic of what I'm talking about, variance is being crushed. If you look at other industries that have become inundated with 'best practices' logic, such as business, this has already occurred. Best practices =/= best product
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Mar 19, 2015 17:47
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straight up brolic posted:this is part of the problem, though, as it inevitably leads to the discovery of a statistical 'best player archetype', which is really just synonymous with 'most efficient'. I kind of like the 1-5 positions as they're intentionally inaccurate for how a player performs, but assumes general duties given a players size as compared to the other players on the court. Variability is why we watch basketball. I want to notice the differences between Chris Paul and Russell Westbrook within a position that's loosely defined as anyone who's under 6'5 or is a primary ball handler whenever he's on the court, I don't want to compare them to other 'alchemists' or 'disruptors' or whatever buzzword the analytics community wants to design for them. We understand that different point guards play differently, that's the fun of it. Except a lot of people like Memphis despite them playing very unorthodox to today's NBA. I think if you lose you will be scoffed at, if you win you will be praised. That's how it's always been.
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Mar 19, 2015 17:51
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There's too much change going on in the NBA for variance to go away. Right now you have the Bucks playing a brand new crazy defense where they switch on every play. And Hibbert's reinvention of the verticality rule is what, 3 years old? And before that you had Thibs defense coming out of no where. And thats just on defense. On Offense we've seen amazing developments from Pop, Spo, and Carlisle in the last few years. And before that we had the 7 seconds or less Suns. Things are always changing because teams, coaches and players are always looking for a leg up.
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Mar 19, 2015 18:00
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Lockback posted:Except a lot of people like Memphis despite them playing very unorthodox to today's NBA. I think if you lose you will be scoffed at, if you win you will be praised. That's how it's always been.
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Mar 19, 2015 18:02
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There is also not now nor will there ever be enough shooting talent to turn every team into a carbon copy of Robo-3-Takers. Different dudes have different skillsets and there will always be weirdos like the Freak or Russ. I don't know about you but I'd much rather watch today's more-efficient and evolving game than the ugly, forearm shiver games of the 90's. That wasn't basketball, that was MMA.
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Mar 19, 2015 18:03
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Lockback posted:edit: Unique player Rondo would like to show you his solo  okay after watching it several time I am going to decide this is a 180 spinning look-away pass and not entirely a no-look "I'm pretty sure Monta will be whereever this goes" pass. It is simply amazing and not proof of psychic witnessing. EvanTH fucked around with this message at 18:15 on Mar 19, 2015 |
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Mar 19, 2015 18:12
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Ugly forearm-shiver basketball is bad for dunking as a whole but fertile ground for dunking on heads. The distance of the 3-point line should be set randomly between 22 and 40 feet at the start of each game (half?) to keep the equilibrium-efficiency trap that straight up brolic fears from developing.
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Mar 19, 2015 18:14
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Metapod posted:N:Post-game X-Rays on Enes Kanter (ankle) came back negative and revealed a mild sprain of his left ankle It's amazing how the that trade is working out so great for both teams. Gobert gets playing time and Kanter gets a better team. Almost offsets that Waiters move.
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Mar 19, 2015 18:17
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Doltos posted:It's amazing how the that trade is working out so great for both teams. Gobert gets playing time and Kanter gets a better team. Almost offsets that Waiters move. I think OKC is a worse team with Kanter.
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Mar 19, 2015 18:23
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straight up brolic posted:this is part of the problem, though, as it inevitably leads to the discovery of a statistical 'best player archetype', which is really just synonymous with 'most efficient'. I kind of like the 1-5 positions as they're intentionally inaccurate for how a player performs, but assumes general duties given a players size as compared to the other players on the court. Variability is why we watch basketball. I want to notice the differences between Chris Paul and Russell Westbrook within a position that's loosely defined as anyone who's under 6'5 or is a primary ball handler whenever he's on the court, I don't want to compare them to other 'alchemists' or 'disruptors' or whatever buzzword the analytics community wants to design for them. We understand that different point guards play differently, that's the fun of it. In the 90s everyone wanted guards to take pull up jumpers at the elbow and bigs to post up, even if they were bad at posting up. In the 60s it was considered smart to throw the ball to the basket like you were pitching a softball. There's always going to be a preferred style umbrella that players have to operate under. Coaches who aren't smart will try to force players to be what they aren't, coaches like Popovich will take advantage of their players' unique skills.
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Mar 19, 2015 18:30
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Imagine the dystopian stats ruled future where players are routinely suspended and hazed for taking midrange shots. Only one franchise has the courage to buck the trend, but to do it they'll need a familiar face to hang up his golf clubs and get back on the bench. And that man's name is Byron Scott.
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Mar 19, 2015 18:37
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Dejan Bimble posted:In the 90s everyone wanted guards to take pull up jumpers at the elbow and bigs to post up, even if they were bad at posting up. In the 60s it was considered smart to throw the ball to the basket like you were pitching a softball. There's always going to be a preferred style umbrella that players have to operate under. I guess my only contention is that coaches were primarily strategically motivated by basketball factors previously, while they're increasingly motivated by the external analysis of basketball factors currently. The fact that someone will get crucified in the media and by their peers if they choose a less efficient option, ala Pete Carroll in the super bowl is insane. There are factors in sport that are beyond analysis and owners select coaches because they trust in them to make the correct decisions, not the most efficient ones, although there is often overlap. basically, I agree with Charles Barkley and you will all mock me for it, but whatever.
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Mar 19, 2015 18:41
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straight up brolic posted:the point isn't about specific examples or counterexamples it's a macro level commentary regarding efficiency logics and the way that the NBA is transforming. Discourses surrounding Memphis this season have largely been about how 'this is a playing style that's going out of favor', 'good to see a team that will still bang with you', 'old style basketball' etc... they're conceptualised as a relic of a different era even though David Joerger has changed their playstyle from the extreme that it was under Lionel Hollins towards a more contemporary efficiency based game. He's brought in wings to shoot the three etc...and everyone has applauded him for that. I actually agree with you somewhat, but I think there's a few things that will stop it from going too far to the extreme you describe. I mean one thing is that basketball's always been what you describe in part-it's just what's considered "efficient" is changing. For the longest time the best offense was considered to have a center that worked in the post and a small dude handling the ball like 95% of the time. Teams copied that and those that didn't get dudes who were good in those roles either wasted time with lesser talents or wasted talent fitting square pegs in round holes. Some teams would innovate though, and see inefficiencies and make use of all those tweener types. Or you'd just get a super-talented dude and dominate and build around them (Jordan won 6 titles with 42 feet of poo poo at center, remember). All the stuff they're discovering about efficiency in playstyle is largely new, but especially with the salary cap, there's also efficiency to be found in team-building and whatnot. So where now you can have a team like Atlanta that fits this mold, dudes like them will have their price driven up and you'll end up with teams trying to overpay for all the spacing dudes. And then some teams may see that there's all these deadly midrange dudes who you can get on the cheap, and that will be the new efficiency. I mean a lot of the reason these spacing teams can work is because the dudes with those talents were undervalued for what they provided. You start paying them their "worth" and that skillset is no longer so easy to assemble on a team.
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Mar 19, 2015 18:41
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Bashez posted:I think OKC is a worse team with Kanter. look at this bad opinion
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Mar 19, 2015 18:42
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It's also worth noting that while the Hawks exemplify the current trend they also arrived at it through player development or perhaps luck. Kyle Korver signed to a long term contract after some okayish years with the Bulls, DeMarre Carroll, Mike Scott and Paul Millsap all becoming quality 3 pt shooters on the team. Does Atlanta secretly have one of the best shooting coaches in the league?
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Mar 19, 2015 18:45
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I would much rather the conversation be about efficiency and 3 point shooting than Heart of a Champion, Will, "The Look", Hunger. People will say stupid stuff about basketball always, and it always is retrospective to "Did you win or lose"?
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Mar 19, 2015 18:45
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As the various aspects of "efficiency" become properly valued (and the player market stabilizes after the huge luxury tax hike/impending lockout), teams will no longer be able to find players like NBA All Star Kyle Korver for bargain-basement prices. Given the hopefully-continued inability to simply buy championships in the NBA, teams will need to continue to innovate to find undervalued players in order to win. For some teams, that will involve finding better ways to measure efficiency as we currently understand it, for some it will involve finding ways to develop skills in players to make them more valuable, but for others it will be recognizing how players with unique skillsets can be used in a way that maximizes their talents.
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Mar 19, 2015 18:49
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The variance in player's skillsets is a natural occurrence, there's always going to be weird midget guards who can somehow rebound the ball super well or 7 footers who want to do their Michael Jordan impression. To me, a team like Memphis isn't really that far off a concept compared to other teams, it's just that their two best players have been Gasol and Randolph which has lead to their style of play, and I don't think it's Randolph or Gasol types who are going to get phased out of the NBA. It's also not going to be the last time in NBA history that tactics will change.Lockback posted:Except a lot of people like Memphis despite them playing very unorthodox to today's NBA
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Mar 19, 2015 18:51
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Bashez posted:I think OKC is a worse team with Kanter. They're playing without Durant, of course they've been a worst team with Kanter. The correlation isn't there though. Until the Ibaka injury they were fielding a pretty potent big rotation between Kanter, Ibaka, Adams, McGary, and Collison.
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Mar 19, 2015 18:51
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