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Clawshrimpy is worse than Ryoma and Saotome combined. If they CHANGE GETted they still would not be as bad as clawshrimply
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Mar 19, 2015 17:55
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Droyer posted:No, what you said ws that Ryoma and Hayato are just as bad if not worse than the invaders. Either defend that claim or admit you were wrong, but stop moving goalposts. FIne, I should have said that the invanders and the professor were more evil, but Ryoum and Hayato were far from being heroes. They weren't the villain, but they were close.
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Mar 19, 2015 17:55
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this thread is black and white morality.
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Mar 19, 2015 17:55
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Captain Invictus you seem to have gone off the rails lately, are you okay?
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Mar 19, 2015 17:57
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Clawshrimpy posted:FIne, I should have said that the invanders and the professor were more evil, but Ryoum and Hayato were far from being heroes. They weren't the villain, but they were close. Still no, saving people from being eaten by giant evil monsters is on the opposite side of the spectrum to villains. Actually you know what, no. They're Heroes. You don't do what they did at the end of Armageddon without being a Hero. Artum fucked around with this message at 18:00 on Mar 19, 2015 |
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Mar 19, 2015 17:57
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Clawshrimpy posted:FIne, I should have said that the invanders and the professor were more evil, but Ryoum and Hayato were far from being heroes. They weren't the villain, but they were close. Being off their meds and wanting to devour the galaxy are two very different things. We're talking petty larceny compared to crimes against humanity.
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Mar 19, 2015 17:59
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Sakurazuka posted:Captain Invictus you seem to have gone off the rails lately, are you okay? BUSTA WOLF
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Mar 19, 2015 17:59
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Artum posted:That is extremely funny and I regret not asking, thank you. You're welcome.
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Mar 19, 2015 17:59
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muike posted:OH yeah that's right. It's real good.
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Mar 19, 2015 18:00
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Clawshrimpy posted:FIne, I should have said that the invanders and the professor were more evil, but Ryoum and Hayato were far from being heroes. They weren't the villain, but they were close. Ryoma and Hayato are assholes but that doesn't make them villains. There is a very wide gulf between "being a jackass" and "trying to take over the world."
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Mar 19, 2015 18:03
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Artum posted:Still no, saving people from being eaten by giant evil monsters is on the opposite side of the spectrum to villains. Does one sacrificial act wash away every bad thing they did? Really? Kamina's death moment didn't wash away what he did to Simon, so.....
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Mar 19, 2015 18:03
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Clawshrimpy posted:FIne, I should have said that the invanders and the professor were more evil, but Ryoum and Hayato were far from being heroes. They weren't the villain, but they were close. Granted, Ryouma really wants to kill one guy and doesn't seem to care about collateral damage. Hayato is just kind of a dick in general. Yes, they are less heroic than the new Getter team. But they're still nowhere close to being villains, especially considering that, as previously mentioned, their oppponents want to kill all non-invader life.
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Mar 19, 2015 18:03
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Clawshrimpy, honest question: does it bother you when the protagonist in something you read/watch has major flaws and you're still supposed to empathize with them? I'm kind of getting that vibe from your opinions and it's a little enlightening.
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Mar 19, 2015 18:05
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LORD OF BUTT posted:Clawshrimpy, honest question: does it bother you when the protagonist in something you read/watch has major flaws and you're still supposed to empathize with them? I'm kind of getting that vibe from your opinions and it's a little enlightening. Depends on what you mean by flaw.
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Mar 19, 2015 18:06
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Being a person apparently.
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Mar 19, 2015 18:07
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Artum posted:Being a person apparently. Except.... the characters in GGG were people with flaws, just flaws that weren't you know, being horrible people.
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Mar 19, 2015 18:09
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I think the term to apply here, and remember is acceptable, is that they're 'anti-heroes'. Ryoma and Hayato are not people that one should particularly look up to, at least by any rational measure. But they aren't outright evil, and certainly they don't actively act towards the notion of doing evil things, unless one takes a very deonotological view of things.
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Mar 19, 2015 18:09
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Clawshrimpy posted:Does one sacrificial act wash away every bad thing they did? Really?
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Mar 19, 2015 18:10
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pushed clawshrimpy into a locker and took his lunch money probably
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Mar 19, 2015 18:11
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Zero_Tactility posted:What specifically did they do? Charged full bore into the invader's dimension to join everyone else in the multiverse fighting them so they wouldn't come back to attack humanity anymore.
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Mar 19, 2015 18:12
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the same thing kamina did
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Mar 19, 2015 18:12
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Zero_Tactility posted:What specifically did they do? While Kei and Go had more amiable and likable reason for fighting the Invaders, Ryouma and Hayato come off more like they're on this murderous revenge quest against the Professor.
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Mar 19, 2015 18:13
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Clawshrimpy posted:Except.... the characters in GGG were people with flaws, just flaws that weren't you know, being horrible people. I'm not trying to ridicule you, and I'm not being sarcastic when I ask: What flaw did any of the heroes in GGG have that wasn't 1) for 1-2 episodes (I.E the ryu brothers not getting along, Mamoru shirking his duties) or 2) Irrelevant (hacker guy having poor hygiene, muscle guy being kind of stupid)?
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Mar 19, 2015 18:17
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Clawshrimpy posted:While Kei and Go had more amiable and likable reason for fighting the Invaders, Ryouma and Hayato come off more like they're on this murderous revenge quest against the Professor. In this specific case, that's contextualised by the Professor having (for various reasons) colluded with the Invaders, and as mentioned previously for Ryoma in particular, framing him for murder. Whilst removed from the context that might be seen as highly dubious, again, the context is that the Professor is (at least as far as they can see it) evil first.
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Mar 19, 2015 18:18
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Clawshrimpy posted:Except.... the characters in GGG were people with flaws, just flaws that weren't you know, being horrible people. I dont really know what you are referring to, does being sad briefly about being an alien but having a family that loves you anyway or being a badass cyborg count as flaws? I mean i guess the fact that in final they made a (seemingly exact) clone of mamarou and just brainwashed him into thinking he needed to steal a thing to save the world, and then proceeded to not talk to anyone and just stole it/murdered people makes him an rear end in a top hat (assuming you take at face value that that is what the real one would have done even if it was true, which i do).
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Mar 19, 2015 18:19
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You are wrong to take down the evil empire if your final goal is to kill the overlord. You heard it here folks.
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Mar 19, 2015 18:19
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Clawshrimpy posted:While Kei and Go had more amiable and likable reason for fighting the Invaders, Ryouma and Hayato come off more like they're on this murderous revenge quest against the Professor. Because as far as they know, the Professor not only hosed their lives over, but also did his level best to sell all of humanity to the Invaders on a silver platter. It's a very personal quest for them.
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Mar 19, 2015 18:20
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Clawshrimpy posted:While Kei and Go had more amiable and likable reason for fighting the Invaders, Ryouma and Hayato come off more like they're on this murderous revenge quest against the Professor.
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Mar 19, 2015 18:28
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Clever Spambot posted:I dont really know what you are referring to, does being sad briefly about being an alien but having a family that loves you anyway or being a badass cyborg count as flaws? the "badass cyborg" stuff was most certainly a flaw. Because it wasn't always presented as a good thing. multiple episodes go out of their way to show how horrible it is to exist like that and put on the face of being heroic. Also it was more to Mamoru than being sad he was an alien, it was the sheer weight of that responsibility of it all, and remember when Kaidou told Mamoru that Mamoru made the wrong choice by getting attached to his human life? He was kind of right, as his departure from earth did end up causing heartbreak. Especially since the Sol Lords decided to exploit the fact Mamoru had been gone for 2 years. Clawshrimpy fucked around with this message at 19:02 on Mar 19, 2015 |
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Mar 19, 2015 18:59
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Clawshrimpy posted:While Kei and Go had more amiable and likable reason for fighting the Invaders, Ryouma and Hayato come off more like they're on this murderous revenge quest against the Professor. Well they sorta are. Kei's lived her life -or at least her life as Kei- on a planet controlled by the Invaders and trying to fight against them. Gou's just Gou and doing it because that's what he was made to do, more or less. And Kei herself was soft enough that Shin Getter would've been destroyed by that one Invader who was having parts of it imitate the people it had absorbed. It was an attack aimed to exploit her empathy and sympathy and it worked. Ryouma didn't balk though, and yeah what he did was kinda intense but if he hadn't humanity would've lost its best chance at stopping the Invaders and there wasn't any better way. And like it was said above, there was a personal grudge he and Hayato had towards Saotome... though after they busted out the Stoner Sunshine and Saotome had his whole "SO LONG" speech he certainly seemed to have redeemed himself in their eyes. Also, minor tangent but the Zambot 3 description stuff was pretty heavily off. That show's claims to moral ambiguity are flimsy at best considering how horrible the villains are. Steam fucked around with this message at 19:02 on Mar 19, 2015 |
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Mar 19, 2015 18:59
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Clawshrimpy posted:the "badass cyborg" stuff was most certainly a flaw. Because it wasn't always presented as a good thing. multiple episodes go out of their way to show how horrible it is to exist like that and put on the face of being heroic. Being a cyborg is a challenge he has to deal with, not a flaw in his character. Tony Stark having sharpnel trying to kill him at all times isn't a character flaw, him being a raging alcoholic is.
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Mar 19, 2015 19:06
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Clawshrimpy posted:the "badass cyborg" stuff was most certainly a flaw. Because it wasn't always presented as a good thing. multiple episodes go out of their way to show how horrible it is to exist like that and put on the face of being heroic. Putting up with difficult things is not a flaw its a virtue. Responsibility and sadness also arent.
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Mar 19, 2015 19:07
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Artum posted:Being a cyborg is a challenge he has to deal with, not a flaw in his character. But the being a cyborg directly ties into Guy's self-image issues he faces when he fails. Even after becoming a superhuman, he still has personal demons around failure he has to confront after being mind-controlled.
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Mar 19, 2015 19:09
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Clawshrimpy posted:But the being a cyborg directly ties into Guy's self-image issues he faces when he fails. Even after becoming a superhuman, he still has personal demons around failure he has to confront after being mind-controlled. How often are Guy's failures something that constantly eat at him though? Yes we get a few token points showing him not happy about being a cyborg, but if you took those scenes out nothing about the series or his character changes. I can't think of a single time he ever was seriously haunted by losing, and even after the first three Primevals wrecked him pretty bad his grief was mostly confined to just "if only I could help my friends right now!" Seriously, I would like to see actual moments of him dwelling on this and suffering in some way because of it. And as for the mind-control stuff? Like five seconds after he's freed it's just one long, actiony fight scene between the GGG people and the Sol Lords. Little if any time is put into characterization after that.
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Mar 19, 2015 19:14
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So between how the shades of a conflict and what constitutes a character/personality flaw (not quirk), what aspect of writing has actually been viewed correctly here?
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Mar 19, 2015 19:17
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Clawshrimpy posted:But the being a cyborg directly ties into Guy's self-image issues he faces when he fails. Even after becoming a superhuman, he still has personal demons around failure he has to confront after being mind-controlled. Clever Spambot posted:Putting up with difficult things is not a flaw its a virtue. Responsibility and sadness also arent. Being hard on yourself because you weren't able to save the day as thoroughly as you wanted is also not really a character flaw. Had Guy been arrogantly assuming that of COURSE he'd save the day and ended up loving up because of it then you could say that was a character flaw but Guys in no way arrogant. Listen Shrimp, theres nothing wrong with heroes being flawless, they're fun. We're finally coming back around to the idea that earnest heroism is not wrong as a culture and not every hero has to a dark gritty anti-hero. I love Jonathan Joestar for how much of a perfect gentleman he is and I don't need to try and ascribe traits to him that aren't there to excuse it saying "nah man hes actually super deep and edgy".
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Mar 19, 2015 19:19
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wow you guys are still going huh
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Mar 19, 2015 19:20
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Steam posted:How often are Guy's failures something that constantly eat at him though? Yes we get a few token points showing him not happy about being a cyborg, but if you took those scenes out nothing about the series or his character changes. I can't think of a single time he ever was seriously haunted by losing, and even after the first three Primevals wrecked him pretty bad his grief was mostly confined to just "if only I could help my friends right now!" Seriously, I would like to see actual moments of him dwelling on this and suffering in some way because of it. Especially when you have a cast as large as GaoGaiGar and you have a ton of othe rcharacters to develop while telling a story as good as the one it has.
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Mar 19, 2015 19:22
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Send help.
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Mar 19, 2015 19:22
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Yosuke posted:So between how the shades of a conflict and what constitutes a character/personality flaw (not quirk), what aspect of writing has actually been viewed correctly here? Apropos of nothing, but where is your avatar from? It looks super neat.
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Mar 19, 2015 19:24
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