|
Clawshrimpy posted:Just because a show doesn't show a piece of character development throughout the entirety of a show's run does not mean it was unimportant or it didn't matter. I asked you for examples of him grappling with times he's failed. If you can't provide even one concrete example don't bring it up in the first place.
|
#
?
Mar 19, 2015 19:25
|
|
|
|
| # ? Jun 8, 2024 21:26 |
|
|
Artum posted:Being a cyborg is a challenge he has to deal with, not a flaw in his character. I think in that regard that's a matter of how one defines a 'flaw' in a character; ie, a specific negative trait of the character's personality vs their life not being entirely enviable. Shrimpy's understanding leans more on the latter, your's more on the former. Admittedly I think the issue is complicated by how 'flaws' in fiction tend not to be, and in some fans have an expectation not to be, particularly subtle. Guy's relatively downplayed experience of being a cyborg isn't necessarily any less 'realistic' than other depictions that might be more depressive, particularly when a number of people who lose limbs and have to gain prosthetics are in fact incensed by the concept that their lives must somehow become drama fests by the typical rules of fiction. That said, that doesn't change that GGG is relatively light on the kinds of character flaws that typically breed conflict. The most generous interpretation is that most of them are mature adults and professionals - the counterpoint would be that, of course, many 'professionals' can still be idiotic, petty, and all the rest (just look at politicians), and the writers likely just avoided having any long running issues because that really wasn't the point of the show.
|
|
#
?
Mar 19, 2015 19:27
|
|
|
Steam posted:I asked you for examples of him grappling with times he's failed. If you can't provide even one concrete example don't bring it up in the first place. The Scene where he's talking with Mamoru in the one room about what the point of being a cyborg is if all it does is keep him alive when all his other friends die, or in FINAL that does he truly deserve to be a hero if he was so easily defeated and taken control of by the Sol Lords.
|
|
#
?
Mar 19, 2015 19:28
|
|
|
Edit: sniped
|
|
#
?
Mar 19, 2015 19:28
|
|
|
Droyer posted:Apropos of nothing, but where is your avatar from? It looks super neat. Cardfight Vanguard. Its cardart Obari did for a set.
|
|
#
?
Mar 19, 2015 19:29
|
|
|
Yosuke posted:Cardfight Vanguard. Its cardart Obari did for a set. I'd NEVER have guessed.
|
|
#
?
Mar 19, 2015 19:31
|
|
|
Shrimpy, you do not understand what a character flaw is. You do not know what black and white or grey and grey morality are. I tried to be encouraging when you came back but it's becoming clear that you fundamentally have no idea what you're talking about.
|
|
#
?
Mar 19, 2015 19:35
|
|
|
Artum posted:I'd NEVER have guessed. Obari is also, from my understanding, the only person who ever makes the cardset in question look right when in action on the screen. Actually thinking about it, whilst I know Obari has done a number of his own series, I'm not sure to what extent he's 'contributed' to other works. I imagine the range has to be fairly sizeable, right?
|
|
#
?
Mar 19, 2015 19:37
|
|
|
Clawshrimpy posted:The Scene where he's talking with Mamoru in the one room about what the point of being a cyborg is if all it does is keep him alive when all his other friends die, or in FINAL that does he truly deserve to be a hero if he was so easily defeated and taken control of by the Sol Lords. I don't know when Guy and Mamoru have that discussion so I can't check the context of it, but that bit in FINAL isn't really Guy's fault since he's under the influence of the Chemical Bolts and thus it's not clear how much control Guy has even over his own thought processes. Also, these really aren't points that cause inconveniences for anyone else unless his chat with Mamoru horrifically demoralizes the boy (which I doubt it did). A legit flaw would be him being scared for his life and hesitating to use Hell or Heaven. Or being excessively distrustful of J for whatever reason. Or being envious of people who aren't just a head and a pile of organs in a tin can and letting that envy get the better of him. EDIT: regarding Obari's history in the anime biz... http://www.animenewsnetwork.com/encyclopedia/people.php?id=4240 He seems to help a lot with key animation.
|
|
#
?
Mar 19, 2015 19:39
|
|
|
Astro Nut posted:Obari is also, from my understanding, the only person who ever makes the cardset in question look right when in action on the screen. His transformers works always been something.
|
|
#
?
Mar 19, 2015 19:42
|
|
|
Astro Nut posted:Obari is also, from my understanding, the only person who ever makes the cardset in question look right when in action on the screen. Obari is only good on other peoples shows, left to his own devices his stuff ranges from terrible to literal porn. Actually I guess Detonator Orgun is okay.
|
|
#
?
Mar 19, 2015 19:42
|
|
|
Steam posted:I don't know when Guy and Mamoru have that discussion so I can't check the context of it, but that bit in FINAL isn't really Guy's fault since he's under the influence of the Chemical Bolts and thus it's not clear how much control Guy has even over his own thought processes. Also, these really aren't points that cause inconveniences for anyone else unless his chat with Mamoru horrifically demoralizes the boy (which I doubt it did). A legit flaw would be him being scared for his life and hesitating to use Hell or Heaven. Or being excessively distrustful of J for whatever reason. Or being envious of people who aren't just a head and a pile of organs in a tin can and letting that envy get the better of him. They have that discussion right after the episode with the first primeval attack, and Guy's own despair does cause Mamoru to cry and plead with him to not say everyone died for nothing.
|
|
#
?
Mar 19, 2015 19:42
|
|
|
Clawshrimpy posted:Does one sacrificial act wash away every bad thing they did? Really? As said before I don't think you can really use GL for any example if you don't understand the points of the series. You keep hounding on about all the abuse and terrible things Kamina did to Simon at the first half the series. Did you block out the part where he has a serious talk with Yoko about what he's been doing all this time? That he's only playing the part of the "Cool Older Brother" for Simons sake. That deep down inside he's terrified of the Ganmen and all that is happening but that he recognized that Simon is the one with the true courage and power to make a difference. He acts cool, tough, stern, and at time cruel for the sake of strengthening Simon's resolve. If he ever showed Simon that he was afraid or scared of the enemies then Simon's own blind devotion to him would lead down that path. His death martyrs his ideals not only within the Gurren Lagann but also inside Simon himself. A good contrast to this is when Simon gets stuck in the Sea of Despair. There we see another possible Kamina. One that talks big but doesn't follow through and apologizes and belittles himself to get out.
|
|
#
?
Mar 19, 2015 19:43
|
|
|
Artum posted:His transformers works always been something. I just took a look on youtube with 'Transformers Obari' now, and its actually jarring to see something like Predaking with Obari's particular taste of dynamic posing.
|
|
#
?
Mar 19, 2015 19:46
|
|
|
Sakurazuka posted:Obari is only good on other peoples shows, left to his own devices his stuff ranges from terrible to literal porn. I liked Godannar. But it really could have done without all the tits.
|
|
#
?
Mar 19, 2015 19:47
|
|
|
hi clawshrimpy i have a pressing question: in your headcanon where everybody is gay, autistic or gay and autistic, where is volfogg? is he gay, autistic, or gay and autistic? related, why does everyone in your headcanon have to be gay and autistic like you are? is it because you can only like shows where you relate to people, so by inventing these qualities for these characters, you can read additional depth into a show otherwise lacking in it and use that to elevate it to this pedestal that GGG sits upon for you? thank you and g-stone bless
|
|
#
?
Mar 19, 2015 19:47
|
|
|
Astro Nut posted:I just took a look on youtube with 'Transformers Obari' now, and its actually jarring to see something like Predaking with Obari's particular taste of dynamic posing. I know right? It being the traditionally boxy and idle transformers only reinforces the feeling.
|
|
#
?
Mar 19, 2015 19:48
|
|
|
Artum posted:I liked Godannar. But it really could have done without all the tits. Obari didn't really have anything to do with Godannar though, although he does love huge tits, much like myself.
|
|
#
?
Mar 19, 2015 19:50
|
|
|
Clawshrimpy posted:They have that discussion right after the episode with the first primeval attack, and Guy's own despair does cause Mamoru to cry and plead with him to not say everyone died for nothing. *checks MaHQ and then the youtube scene itself* https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7oT7Vw8Pa1g Mamoru was already on the verge of tears when he entered the room, and Guy's more frustrated and angry than horrifically depressed. Mamoru also is saying Guy's EFFORTS weren't for nothing, which they weren't. And then Guy's just like "you're right, I won't lose heart again". This is a very brief point where Guy thinks everyone he's fought alongside is dead and it's his lowest point in the series, he's allowed to have a brief moment of grief but that's not really part of his unique character.
|
|
#
?
Mar 19, 2015 19:52
|
|
|
Artum posted:I know right? It being the traditionally boxy and idle transformers only reinforces the feeling. Especially when it comes to like, the actual action as well, since Obari trying to animate Predaking just... shooting, as per Transformers norm, looks really awkward. Actually, I just found a rendering of the post-Transformation. It really highlights it.
|
|
#
?
Mar 19, 2015 19:53
|
|
|
Astro Nut posted:Especially when it comes to like, the actual action as well, since Obari trying to animate Predaking just... shooting, as per Transformers norm, looks really awkward. Very much like a real T-rex it's arms are too short to do anything.
|
|
#
?
Mar 19, 2015 19:55
|
|
|
Paper Lion posted:hi clawshrimpy i have a pressing question: in your headcanon where everybody is gay, autistic or gay and autistic, where is volfogg? is he gay, autistic, or gay and autistic? Come on man, at least stick to stupid poo poo he's kept to this topic.
|
|
#
?
Mar 19, 2015 19:56
|
|
|
Steam posted:*checks MaHQ and then the youtube scene itself* I don't understand how that is proof that the characters in GGG are flawless or how this character development doesn't count.
|
|
#
?
Mar 19, 2015 19:56
|
|
|
Clawshrimpy posted:I don't understand how that is proof that the characters in GGG are flawless or how this character development doesn't count. The notion is that by the understanding of 'character flaws' that people tend to more conventionally think of - as in, negative personality traits - then Guy's lamentation of his inability to protect his loved ones isn't really, well, a negative trait. Being literal about it, yes, he's failed and thus isn't perfect, but he hasn't become especially more nuanced or developed by the incident.
|
|
#
?
Mar 19, 2015 20:01
|
|
|
Clawshrimpy posted:I don't understand how that is proof that the characters in GGG are flawless or how this character development doesn't count. Because being sad that all your friends are (seemingly) dead isn't a flaw, and once he learned they were alive he didn't develop, he returned to his previous status quo personality. Character development is character -> thing happens -> character changes, whereas this is gai -> sad gai -> gai.
|
|
#
?
Mar 19, 2015 20:01
|
|
|
Being sad in 2 scenes continues not being a character flaw. Guy, the main character of hit show gaogaigar, has functionally no flaws and that is fine and doesn't make the show worse.
|
|
#
?
Mar 19, 2015 20:03
|
|
|
Clever Spambot posted:Being sad in 2 scenes continues not being a character flaw. Guy, the main character of hit show gaogaigar, has functionally no flaws and that is fine and doesn't make the show worse. But that implies that it's worse than the shows that I hate just ebcause the characters in the shows I hate have "flaws" When it's not true, GaoGaiGar is better than all those shows where the characters who are supposed to be the heroes act worse than the villains do! When GaoGaiGar develops it's characters so much better than the shows where the heroes engage in villanous behavior
|
|
#
?
Mar 19, 2015 20:07
|
|
|
Clawshrimpy posted:But that implies that it's worse than the shows that I hate just ebcause the characters in the shows I hate have "flaws" lol
|
|
#
?
Mar 19, 2015 20:08
|
|
|
Clawshrimpy posted:But that implies that it's worse than the shows that I hate just ebcause the characters in the shows I hate have "flaws" Please stop making absolute statements about things which are inherently subjective in nature.
|
|
#
?
Mar 19, 2015 20:09
|
|
|
Droyer posted:Please stop making absolute statements about things which are inherently subjective in nature.
|
|
#
?
Mar 19, 2015 20:10
|
|
|
Clawshrimpy posted:But that implies that it's worse than the shows that I hate just ebcause the characters in the shows I hate have "flaws" Your first sentence summarizes pretty well why you'll never understand any show you watch including GGG. Almost all the characters in GGG are sterotypes played straight. Guy is in essence infallible because he has no flaws and he'll get through anything as long as he tries hard enough. He's one or two traits away from being Gary Stu in the show. No where near the Maho Academy levels though.
|
|
#
?
Mar 19, 2015 20:14
|
|
|
Clawshrimpy posted:But that implies that it's worse than the shows that I hate just ebcause the characters in the shows I hate have "flaws" That is a very broad and sweeping generalisation, and is particularly loaded with ideals on how heroic characters should or shouldn't measure up. A thing to remember is that there are differences between the concepts of heroes, anti-heroes, and protagonists - not all heroes are the protagonists, not all protagonists are heroes, one man's hero might be another's anti-hero, etc. In the context of GaoGaiGar, yes, Guy is a hero and that is both a point of his character and the franchise he comes from. With something like Getter Robo? Ryoma is not and is not meant to be an idealised hero - he is only such by the superhero definition that has him save the day from bad guys, but beyond that he is simply the primary lens through which we view the series as a main character. He is free to both meet and subvert any expectations of social and moral understanding, and how he turns out doesn't necessarily make him or the show terrible - that's just how that particular reality has played out. Being fair to you, wanting to watch heroic characters be heroic is not a bad thing at all - as others have noted, that is fine. The reasoning however that this subsequently makes GaoGaiGar inherently better, or other shows worse (and vice versa, the notion that GGG would somehow be worse and others better) because of that is flawed however, and reflects more your tastes than the show's internal logic and consistency (I will refrain from the term objective because that really doesn't apply like a lot of people think it does).
|
|
#
?
Mar 19, 2015 20:20
|
|
|
Clawshrimpy posted:I don't understand how that is proof that the characters in GGG are flawless or how this character development doesn't count. That's not what we're talking about. What we're talking about is that you said: quote:But the being a cyborg directly ties into Guy's self-image issues he faces when he fails. Even after becoming a superhuman, he still has personal demons around failure he has to confront after being mind-controlled. And I asked for examples of it. You gave me two, one which is open to interpretation because Guy was not fully in control of his own mind and mental health at the time, and another which you misinterpreted. These aren't really self-image issues because they're just brief lapses, they're not something he struggles with or his character arc really dwells heavily on. Personal demons are faults -or perceived faults- that you're aware of and can or have lead you to do things you're not really thrilled of. Flit's inability to protect Yurin in AGE is a personal demon for him. It sets him on a dark, genocidal path and it's something that eats away at him, turning him into a weary soul. Akamatsu's broken marriage and his relationship with his daughter in Betterman are a personal demon for him, a reminder that he prioritized work over family and he's dragged Sakura into this mess and potentially got her killed in the end of the series. The death of Kenji's friends in the 2004 Tetsujin series are a personal demon for him because of his helplessness to stop them and that he sells out his principles (including using guns) to try to get revenge. Guy's moments of failure don't fit this definition. Admittedly it's my own definition but the general consensus is that it's not something that's a short-term problem, but rather a long-term problem people struggle with. And even though there's moments of Guy not being happy about how a cyborg sets him apart, he also frequently and proudly describes himself as "the world's strongest/greatest cyborg" and never tries to hide it.
|
|
#
?
Mar 19, 2015 20:21
|
|
|
Revolver Bunker posted:Your first sentence summarizes pretty well why you'll never understand any show you watch including GGG. They're not stereotypes, though, Guy has depth if you pay attention to his character development, Mamoru has even more depth if you pay attention to his development. they're not flawless stereotypes, they're not. And not Just them, but J, Kaidou, and a lot fot he other characters were good, too... they speak to me more than other characters in other shows do., there's no way awful characters like Simon or Ryouma could be better written than them. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
|
|
#
?
Mar 19, 2015 20:22
|
|
|
Clawshrimpy posted:Hi everyone, I know coming back here isn't going to go that well, and I'll probably won't be back for long considering I'm posting in here again, but since I've been gone, I've done a lot of thinking, and I wanted to at least try to present what I was trying to say before a little better than the way I did so in the past, I do feel really bad for the bad way I worded my arguments and stuff, so I wanted to try and rectify how I felt about things. Clawshrimpy posted:They're not stereotypes, though, Guy has depth if you pay attention to his character development, Mamoru has even more depth if you pay attention to his development. they're not flawless stereotypes, they're not. Please just stop.
|
|
#
?
Mar 19, 2015 20:26
|
|
|
Clawshrimpy posted:They're not stereotypes, though, Guy has depth if you pay attention to his character development, Mamoru has even more depth if you pay attention to his development. they're not flawless stereotypes, they're not. Please use arguments to support your opinions. What you're doing now is essentially going "nuh-uh".
|
|
#
?
Mar 19, 2015 20:27
|
|
|
Clawshrimpy posted:They're not stereotypes, though, Guy has depth if you pay attention to his character development, Mamoru has even more depth if you pay attention to his development. they're not flawless stereotypes, they're not. They can be, potentially, because your tastes do not necessarily determine writing quality and such. I mean, I feel I can relate in some regard - I personally relate to Superman (or rather, Clark Kent) - more than I do Batman, but that doesn't automatically mean that Batman, as an atheistic rich American whose parents were murdered who then proceeded to train in martial arts and multiple sciences, is locked out from being better written than the man of steel might (and indeed, it wouldn't be hard to argue that Batman is definitely more consistently better written) because none of that strikes as strong a chord.
|
|
#
?
Mar 19, 2015 20:28
|
|
|
Sakurazuka posted:wow you guys are still going
|
|
#
?
Mar 19, 2015 20:31
|
|
|
Clawshrimpy posted:They're not stereotypes, though, Guy has depth if you pay attention to his character development, Mamoru has even more depth if you pay attention to his development. they're not flawless stereotypes, they're not. Shrimpy, I don't think anyone here is saying that Simon or Ryouma are inherently better characters than the GGG cast. What we're trying to say is that GGG was very light on character development and mostly used character archtypes to fill out its cast. Mamoru's group of friends? Classic school group archtype. The brainy kid, the brash and "big" one, the rich girl, the shy girl next door, and Mamoru as the "leader". 3G's major command group? Another classic group archtype with Taiga as the dude in charge, the absent-minded professor, Guy as their dude in the field, Mikoto as the girlfriend of said dude in the field always worrying about him, etc. And that's okay! GGG's still a fun show that I enjoyed watching and I liked all the creative uses of pre-existing hardware they used to solve various situations. Majestic Prince is another show that doesn't have the heroes at each other's throats all the time and most of the characters are quirky and not outright flawed. I liked that one a lot too. This is not an inherently bad thing. Even really big stories with lots of character development like A Song of Ice and Fire skimp on development and depth of a lot of characters. That's the reason there are "side characters" and "main characters".
|
|
#
?
Mar 19, 2015 20:36
|
|
|
|
| # ? Jun 8, 2024 21:26 |
|
|
Steam posted:Shrimpy, I don't think anyone here is saying that Simon or Ryouma are inherently better characters than the GGG cast. What we're trying to say is that GGG was very light on character development and mostly used character archtypes to fill out its cast. But if the show in question lacks development and depth, doesn't it prove right everyone who says GGG is nothing but the kid's show everyone claims it is? That's it's effectively belongs in the same bin as Transformers and Digimon and has no literary merit compared to show where the main characters act horrible? I just have a hard time accepting that.
|
|
#
?
Mar 19, 2015 20:40
|
|