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Mr Dog posted:or hey maybe if you rely on your linux poo poo to do serious work you shouldn't run bleeding edge poo poo and update to alpha and beta software constantly Then blame every single forum thread on the planet for recommending Ubuntu and Fedora.
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Mar 19, 2015 16:29
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iNotorious b.s.d. posted:why the gently caress would you install ubuntu and expect any better result? im using fedy 21 these days, I just never update it because Linux is a house of cards and updates are a sulphurous breeze.
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Mar 19, 2015 16:31
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MrMoo posted:So Fedora is explicitly catching up to Windows Update but poorly and with additional reboots? Can you update on shutdown yet? Suspicious Dish posted:Sandboxing apps will help with a lot of this so we can be more sure about OS updates. I thought linux dudes were all superior about their package managers and how much better they are than windows, but now they are making everything like windows. Is this like Noisebridge/South-Park where hippies think the "man" is stupid so they do something different, only to eventually evolve into the "man" because it turns out the man was right all along?
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Mar 19, 2015 16:43
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packages aren't all hell, and mcirosoft is adopting devel packages now because it makes sense (nuget) the issue is that packages solve a number of different issues, and it's good at some and bad at others. it tries to solve software distribution, software discovery, depsolving, and managing system internals. it has always bad at actually installing things without tremendous races, and we've known that for years. nobody cares enough to make that work, since it's a hard problem and you can always kick it to restart firefox (or do what ubuntu does and install a firefox extension that says you need to restart it because you upgraded it while it was working and it broke) it turns out that the app store model is friendlier to users for software discovery, and bundles can be as efficient for software distribution without running into conflicts and layering issues you get with packages. managing system internals and applications in the same namespace has always been a problem, but again, until bundles came around, nobody thought it was a big issue. that leaves us with depsolving, which is one of the things packages get super right. we think it makes sense for depsolving to be used during app development, with software requirements being flattened out at build time. giving a large sat matrix of possibilities to the user's system that's highly fragile and depends on what order the user installs applications has been a mistake, and you get in really weird depsolving scenarios where the system just breaks. reducing that is a giant boon to system stability. we've never really separated apps from each other and the os before.
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Mar 19, 2015 16:51
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tl;dr: the way we were doing it was superior, until it was not, and now we're playing catchup. we relied far too much on the package technology, thinking it was a magic solution that would fix everything, and focused on fixing problems with package technology, rather than reevaluating whether it was a system that meet our high-level goals. package technology is still useful in plenty of other scenarios.
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Mar 19, 2015 16:53
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release the centos 7.1
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Mar 19, 2015 17:33
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Suspicious Dish posted:good wise stuff Thanks friend. So everyone was right for certain cases, and everyone is adopting the better methods for the other cases. Hugs all around in computing. 
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Mar 19, 2015 18:01
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SYSV Fanfic posted:lol. Cocoa Crispies posted:so, three linux users yeah my point was that even with a lot of testing (which i think kde 5 as a whole is doing pretty okay with), this is the kind of thing that could easily be overlooked by everyone
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Mar 19, 2015 18:11
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I've been using PC-BSD lately, and I've been seriously impressed with how it manages the software and upgrading. It'll make a snapshot, and test everything in a new chroot environment if it needs to before installing, checks everything for sanity. Then when you reboot if anything at all goes wrong, you can load back to the past several snapshots like that. You can tell it how and when to make new images or how many previous environments you keep. So if an upgrade goes wrong you just revert, everything is exactly where it was (all the packages and files are back to the correct versions - like it never happened). There are packages but you can build your own easily too if you need particular options; can't really think of anything it doesn't do that I'm missing.
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Mar 19, 2015 18:16
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If it weren't for sublime text I would probably unironically use PC-BSD
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Mar 19, 2015 18:39
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ZShakespeare posted:If it weren't for sublime text I would probably unironically use PC-BSD graduate to a well-seasoned text editor like vim or emacs
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Mar 19, 2015 18:44
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ZShakespeare posted:If it weren't for sublime text I would probably unironically use PC-BSD Virtualbox works a treat on it, set up a vm if you want and sublime away e: actually, I just looked and it's in ports and packages ready to go Broken Machine fucked around with this message at 19:08 on Mar 19, 2015 |
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Mar 19, 2015 18:45
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Suspicious Dish posted:managing system internals and applications in the same namespace has always been a problem, but again, until bundles came around, nobody thought it was a big issue. reminder that NeXT did bundles in the 80s, around NEXTSTEP 1.0 (1989). originally resources were shoved into a section in the Mach-O executable but that changed very quickly, I think to make it faster to do things like look up document types and icons from another process (like Workspace Manager). of course, the big thing that made NEXTSTEP usable was that there was a single app model and API, not the idiotic free-for-all there is on Linux where no two apps can even agree on how to write or draw a button.
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Mar 19, 2015 19:19
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Broken Machine posted:I've been using PC-BSD lately, and I've been seriously impressed with how it manages the software and upgrading. It'll make a snapshot, and test everything in a new chroot environment if it needs to before installing, checks everything for sanity. Then when you reboot if anything at all goes wrong, you can load back to the past several snapshots like that. You can tell it how and when to make new images or how many previous environments you keep. Haiku does a cheap version of this; it composes the system via extensive overlay mounting directly from the package files. updating just downloads new package files and puts a link to a directory containing the latest composed set of packages (which is itself a directory of links to the packages) in the right place and rebooting. if that doesn't work you can tell the booter to use one of the previous directories, and that resets the "latest" link. one of the unfinished parts of their system is that you have to janitor the old snapshot directories yourself. the package file links are hard links though, so removing old snapshot directories does most of the work for you; it's pretty trivial to just keep around the last few snapshots.
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Mar 19, 2015 19:29
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eschaton posted:reminder that NeXT did bundles in the 80s, around NEXTSTEP 1.0 (1989). When I say "bundles" I mean the very modern xdg-app sandboxed bundle technologies. A zip file of binaries and poo poo has been the traditional way to ship any software on any platform.
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Mar 19, 2015 19:34
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so i just installed mint 17.1 on my macbook air but i can't seem to get the keyboard backlight to work. i tried googling the problem but couldn't find a solid answer. anybody else have this issue? also is mint even a good os to really use if i want to learn linux but also not have to worry about everything breaking? i'm still new-ish to this edit: i get breaking it is part of learning but i don't want to have to deal with a headache every time i update something
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Mar 19, 2015 19:55
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shyduck posted:also is mint even a good os to really use if i want to learn linux but also not have to worry about everything breaking? i'm still new-ish to this mac os x is a good desktop os to learn linux on because you can use its working wifi support to connect to linux servers, and be able to type successfully using its functional keyboarad lights
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Mar 19, 2015 20:00
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What does learn linux even mean to you?
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Mar 19, 2015 20:53
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SYSV Fanfic posted:What does learn linux even mean to you? it means "i have no actual use for linux, but my time is worthless"
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Mar 19, 2015 21:04
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shyduck posted:so i just installed mint 17.1 on my macbook air but i can't seem to get the keyboard backlight to work. i tried googling the problem but couldn't find a solid answer. anybody else have this issue? virtualbox is your
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Mar 19, 2015 21:08
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Sudo Echo posted:it means "i have no actual use for linux, but my time is worthless"
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Mar 19, 2015 21:08
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Sudo Echo posted:it means "i have no actual use for linux, but my time is worthless"
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Mar 19, 2015 21:09
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Sudo Echo posted:it means "i have no actual use for linux, but my time is worthless" Yeah, basically.
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Mar 19, 2015 21:31
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Sudo Echo posted:it means "i have no actual use for linux, but my time is worthless" no one has a use for linux
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Mar 19, 2015 21:44
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Awia posted:no one has a use for linux linux delivered me your posts so i hate it
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Mar 19, 2015 22:29
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Shinku ABOOKEN posted:linux delivered me your posts so i hate it maybe you should uninstall it and stop reading my posts then
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Mar 19, 2015 22:30
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Awia posted:maybe you should uninstall it and stop reading my posts then i don't have admin on SA servers
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Mar 19, 2015 22:57
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Shinku ABOOKEN posted:i don't have admin on SA servers lol if you think radium changed the username/pass from default
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Mar 19, 2015 23:05
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kjs500
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Mar 19, 2015 23:05
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I "learned linux". I found out that linux learns back.
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Mar 20, 2015 00:00
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Linux learns to love, but not your posts
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Mar 20, 2015 01:18
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alias em=emacs living dangerously itt
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Mar 20, 2015 01:21
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Suspicious Dish posted:When I say "bundles" I mean the very modern xdg-app sandboxed bundle technologies. A zip file of binaries and poo poo has been the traditional way to ship any software on any platform. a zip file of binaries and poo poo is not what NEXTSTEP then nor what OS X now means by the term "bundle" a bundle is an app or other unit of distributable code and resources that's structured as a (mostly self-contained) directory hierarchy within the filesystem the idea is that an app can have all of its resources, libraries, frameworks, etc. - which may themselves be bundles - within itself I have no idea what "xdg" is but starting with "x" makes me instantly suspicious it's another round of "mechanism, not policy" garbage. please show me that's not the case.
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Mar 20, 2015 03:25
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p. sure SD didn't say what you assume he said
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Mar 20, 2015 03:34
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Gazpacho posted:p. sure SD didn't say what you assume he said I agree with your assessment. 
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Mar 20, 2015 03:43
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eschaton posted:a zip file of binaries and poo poo is not what NEXTSTEP then nor what OS X now means by the term "bundle" so, a zip file full of binaries
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Mar 20, 2015 03:50
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Suspicious Dish posted:so, a zip file full of binaries nope, try again
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Mar 20, 2015 03:57
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A directory full of binaries 
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Mar 20, 2015 04:24
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eschaton posted:I have no idea what "xdg" is but starting with "x" makes me instantly suspicious it's another round of "mechanism, not policy" garbage. please show me that's not the case. here's the source code so far: https://github.com/alexlarsson/xdg-app/ here's a wiki page with rough notes: https://wiki.gnome.org/Projects/SandboxedApps the goals of the system: 1. paper over distro differences, provide a single redistributable binary that works everywhere. basically, eliminate this problem: http://inform7.com/download/release/6G60/ 2. applications depend on a named runtime, which is abi-stable and never breaks backwards compatibility. basically, what people are already doing by shipping everything in /opt and the steam runtime, acknowledge that it won't go away, and then add on new tech to make it safer, more secure, and more resource-friendly. 3. sandbox applications and separate them from the os themselves. 4. provide build, development and distribution tooling to help out from start to finish. you want to be able to start app development in this system, and then at the end press a button and have a redistributable bundle 5. provide a software update framework so that applications can be updated from each other and from the os. these are things that, as far as i'm aware, nextstep nor binaries in zip files attempted or tried to solve.
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Mar 20, 2015 04:29
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Soricidus posted:alias em=emacs use emacsclient
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Mar 20, 2015 04:37
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