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I've read about 80% of this after it was linked earlier: http://su3su2u1.tumblr.com/tagged/Hariezer-Yudotter/chrono so far tonight and am only stopping because I need to sleep. This is a very thorough and considered critique of all of the science and most of the general concepts and inconsistencies presented in the fic. The dude writing this responds to criticism and further develops his comments in response. It's absolutely worth reading, and will make you feel more than justified in your distaste for Yud's magnum opus. In case you're going to click that link and get distracted from this thread, read this too: Blanketspace posted:I can't sleep because I'm mad at fanfiction but here's tumblr guy's comprehensive review of HP:MoR. Probably read this first, then read his chapter by chapter review if you want to see more vicious and relentless dunking all over Yud's writing. Spoilers are a given. JuulPodSaveAmerica fucked around with this message at 10:36 on Mar 19, 2015 |
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Mar 19, 2015 09:08
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Nessus posted:It seems like your goal is to get people to say "I am upset by the behavior of the character in the lovely fanfiction being roasted." Yeah none of this stuff is actually why I think the fic deserves a mockthread but the stuff that DOES make me think it deserves a mockthread means I'm not REALLY inclined to give it the benefit of the doubt the way I did when I first read through it.
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Mar 19, 2015 10:26
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I can't sleep because I'm mad at fanfiction but here's tumblr guy's comprehensive review of HP:MoR. Probably read this first, then read his chapter by chapter review if you want to see more vicious and relentless dunking all over Yud's writing. Spoilers are a given. http://su3su2u1.tumblr.com/post/113649628443/hpmor-full-review-draft
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Mar 19, 2015 10:35
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That reminds me of this Harry Potter in space: http://english.bouletcorp.com/2014/11/04/its-a-kind-of-magic/ Also a nice example of someone with modern morals in Harry's position.
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Mar 19, 2015 10:43
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Legacyspy posted:Do those of us who like hpmor, we can find these redeeming factors in it that other people don't? Relatable goals, badassery, humanity, struggle with failures. I see all of that in hpmor. I think that last line though touches on something though. I could be wrong, but feel like a lot of people don't like Harry because he doesn't respect his "place" and people find that upsetting. See his treatment of Mcgonagall, Dumbeldore etc... The "better-than-thou". Like, clearly Harry is wrong to think that Dumbledore is some outdated fool, or is wrong the way he blackmails Mcgonagall, Or the way he treats her when shopping for the suitcase. He is talking down to her. But it doesn't bother me. But other people find this very upsetting? People who like HPMOR think Harry is a "badass" and self-insert into his shoes. They even read the sequences, so that when Harry condescends to the sheeple (I'm sorry "NPCs") they can condescend along with him. People who don't like HPMOR are probably upset that it suggests that intelligence is the only character trait that matters, that the main purpose of intelligence is manipulation, that science is about power, that there is an absolutely correct way to think, that the world is full of "NPC"s ready for the right-thinkers to trounce over, etc. They might think that the ideas that science should be a secretive endeavor left to ubermensch is wrong headed,etc. They might be bored with a story where actions have no consequences (even death only lasts 1/10 of a book or so), or a story where every minor conflict is solved with the same device (the time turner). They probably take issue with the fact that the author claims to be an AI researcher and a "rationality expert" and yet the CS and psychology mentioned in the story is more often than not incorrect. The other science is wrong too. They might hate stilted writing, or badly paced plots. The story is pretty much a disaster, the only way I can think of people enjoying it is if they are "riding along" with Harry as a power fantasy.
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Mar 19, 2015 16:45
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su3su2u1 posted:They might hate stilted writing, or badly paced plots. The story is pretty much a disaster, the only way I can think of people enjoying it is if they are "riding along" with Harry as a power fantasy. This is why I enjoyed it on my first reading.
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Mar 19, 2015 17:00
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I think it's pretty easy to enjoy the story just based on its concept. Harry Potter is something everyone is familiar with, so a concept that is "Harry Potter but with X" is pretty easy to get behind. The idea of Harry just abusing the world around him in the story is something everyone thought of at least once, because even though Harry Potter is beyond excellent at getting you to suspend your disbelief and roll along with it for the moment, everyone has a moment where after putting the book down they wonder "You know, why didn't they use time turners more often?" So you present people with a story with the concept of "Harry Potter does what our common sense thought he should have" it just sounds really interesting. The issue to me is that the story removed enough from Harry Potter that it doesn't feel fun to read about the character anymore. To me there's always this whimsical tone in Harry Potter even as things get serious and people get killed - remove that, and it's not the same story anymore. So seeing a character do cold, smart things without that tone just isn't what I'd personally enjoy. So beyond any power fantasy, I can see why people would enjoy the story. I just personally can't because the premise wears itself thin pretty early on and the characters don't really resemble their original counterparts as much anymore. Plus like, if you want a Harry Potter power fantasy why not read the "Harry Potter raised by a professional wrestler" fanfic? That's a much better power fantasy anyway 
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Mar 19, 2015 17:33
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Hopeford posted:Plus like, if you want a Harry Potter power fantasy why not read the "Harry Potter raised by a professional wrestler" fanfic? That's a much better power fantasy anyway Harry Potter and the Most Electrifying Man?
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Mar 19, 2015 17:52
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quote:"What house do you think The Harry belongs to?" Yes.
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Mar 19, 2015 17:55
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Harry isn't behaving as our common sense would tell us to, though. Or at least, I would hope not. Harry is acting like he's a knowing agent in some RPG where he's figured out a money cheat and is planning ahead for when he has to go to the high level dungeons. It's like he's planning a speedrun through his school when he's ten years old. That poo poo is weird. You could have kept a similar beat structure that went something more like this: * Harry finds out he's a wizzard, establish his skepticism and require a test; have him go "HOLY SHITBUCKETS" when magic becomes undeniable * He's full of dumbass questions in the shopping trip, demonstrating his childish enthusiasm and perhaps trepidation; include a couple of insightful ones ("is magic bad for your soul, you know, like they say at church? not that I believe in church, but I didn't believe in magic either", possibly foreshadowing some limitations). For bonus points have McGonagall be at least broadly conversant with muggle science. Perhaps Harry can explain some fine detail to her, pleasing her with his cleverness. * Have him take out a large sum and buy a lot of dumb poo poo along with his school supplies, giving you a small arsenal of random items and obscure books which provide plot progress fuel later in the narrative. You can show how clever Harry is by having him use some novelty item as the centerpiece of some contraption or other, solving a problem. * On the train you can still have him do a lengthy chat with Draco but have him sidle away and into the Weasley Zone after Draco starts theorycrafting his rape, and possibly not have Harry editorialize internally about how only his pure and wise culture is free from the abuse of the powerless by the powerful. If necessary have him make some cordial apology if you want to have him interact more peacefully with Li'l D later.
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Mar 19, 2015 18:32
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I honestly don't get all the talk about intelligence being portrayed as a desirable character quality, especially if the example we're getting is Harry. So far he's been acting like a total dork. Parroting theories and aping methods does not an intelligent character make.
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Mar 19, 2015 18:52
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anilEhilated posted:I honestly don't get all the talk about intelligence being portrayed as a desirable character quality, especially if the example we're getting is Harry. So far he's been acting like a total dork. It's really just people reading ahead or reading the goon's tumblr review. The "book" really makes an effort to show how only the intelligent characters get anything done and literally everyone else are worthless wastes of space dancing at the whim of their intellectual superiors.
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Mar 19, 2015 23:13
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su3su2u1 posted:People who like HPMOR think Harry is a "badass" and self-insert into his shoes. They even read the sequences, so that when Harry condescends to the sheeple (I'm sorry "NPCs") they can condescend along with him. Naww, for me it was 'have a weekend in a tent in the sun, want something dumb to read'. It's fun in the same way as airport novels with big skulls / snakes / bullets / flags embossed on the cover - you don't ask any hard questions, and it makes amusing noises and bright lights for a bit. It's the writing equivalent of a one-armed bandit. Yud is the guy in the bar who insists on showing you his Foolproof Method to get a jackpot. If you want an actually good novel, why are you buying in the spinny-rack in the flight lounge? (That is a metaphor for fanfiction.)
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Mar 20, 2015 03:55
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Chapter 7 – Reciprocation Part Eleven quote:
Harry hasn’t read any of the textbooks or history books of the wizarding world, and hasn’t asked any of the more experienced wizards like McGonagall or Dumbledore about whether wizards have visited the moon or whether magic can send a person to the moon. Why is Harry willing to accept Malfoy’s reply – a sample size of one, and a relatively inexperienced and unlearned “one” at that – as the final and comprehensive word on the matter? Isn’t that inconsistent with rationality and/or the scientific method? quote:
If waving a wand and chanting in a certain way consistently gets you Effect No. 1 every time, and waving a wand and chanting in a different way consistently gets you Effect No. 2 every time, isn’t that also ”knowing how the universe works on such a deep level that you know exactly what to do in order to make the universe do what you want”? quote:
But Potterverse magic spells include Obliviate and Memory Charms, which do allow you to “convince them it was their own idea all along. quote:
Terrible analogy here. A wand is just a tool to manifest magic - it isn’t the fundamental basis of magic itself. When a car breaks down, you don’t say the laws of physics and principles of chemistry failed, you say there was a fault in the engine and you replace or repair the broken engine. quote:
So does magic, at least in the canon series. quote:
Just off the top of my head, we’ve lost the recipe for the ancient Romans’ cement, which is much more durable than modern Portland cement - the Colosseum is still standing more than two thousands years later while buildings constructed with Portland cement wear down much faster. I’m sure there are many other ancient arts that we aren’t able to replicate in modern times.
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Mar 20, 2015 04:23
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quote:You have to really know what you're doing to do science - and when you really understand something, you can explain it to someone else.  e: JosephWongKS posted:Just off the top of my head, we’ve lost the recipe for the ancient Romans’ cement, which is much more durable than modern Portland cement - the Colosseum is still standing more than two thousands years later while buildings constructed with Portland cement wear down much faster. I’m sure there are many other ancient arts that we aren’t able to replicate in modern times. 
petrol blue fucked around with this message at 04:35 on Mar 20, 2015 |
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Mar 20, 2015 04:32
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quote:"You don't need to tell us what your blood is like, Malfoy. I'll make sure that the entire school can see it dripping out of your skull after I'm done with you!" screamed Harry, gesturing furiously at Malfoy. "Let me tell you how our fight is gonna go. If The Harry hits you, he'll kill you. If he misses, the wind behind the punch will give you pneumonia and you'll die anyway, so the choice is yours jabroni. Both ways end with The Harry sticking your head so far up your rear end you are gonna have to cut holes in your nipples to be able to see." This is just fine. ***Edit*** Oh my God! quote:"Not a joke, Harry! In fact," Ron further amplified his voice, "THIS, IS, YOUR LIFE!" Arbite fucked around with this message at 04:48 on Mar 20, 2015 |
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Mar 20, 2015 04:34
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I want to work out a program to randomly select each paragraph from one of the two fanfics, and then display them as a single story. Can you smell what the Malfoy is raping?!
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Mar 20, 2015 04:38
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petrol blue posted:I want to work out a program to randomly select each paragraph from one of the two fanfics, and then display them as a single story.
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Mar 20, 2015 04:50
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Tupperwarez posted:Ron Weasley: Jobber for Life If he'd stand up for himself every now and again, the promoters might not stick Ron on curtain jerker duty every time.
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Mar 20, 2015 04:55
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Hey, at least he beat his brothers and got out of the tag division. e: "It's pronounced div-aah." e2: 
petrol blue fucked around with this message at 05:17 on Mar 20, 2015 |
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Mar 20, 2015 05:01
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petrol blue posted:Damascus steel & Greek Fire. Chemistry seems to have not carried on too well from generation to generation. Guess those classical blacksmiths/chemists/builders must not have really known what they were doing. I believe we're pretty sure that Damascus steel is simply the old folded steel technique. The thing about lost inventions is that without a patent system the only way to make money off your unique creations was to keep them secret. Incidentally, the modern patent system grew out of an earlier system in which kings awarded monopolies over goods or inventions to those whom he favored. So if you really think about it, modern R&D economics has more to do with greedy noblemen than with the great Enlightenment thinkers.
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Mar 20, 2015 05:37
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Chapter 7 – Reciprocation Part Twelve quote:
On what basis does Harry have such confidence that the ability to perform magic is passed down the generations via genes / DNA? It’s “magic”. The feats that magic perform are explicitly outside the realm of physics, so what makes Harry think that the way that magic is transmitted is in accordance with the realm of biology? quote:
I’m genuinely baffled as to what Harry means by “But because science rests upon my human intelligence, it is the power that cannot be removed from me without removing me”. Could someone kindly clarify for me? quote:
Harry sure is a power-hungry megalomaniacal little brat. I can see how a power-hungry megalomaniacal little brat scheming his way to world power and domination could be fun to read about, really I can, but this Harry just doesn’t have the charisma to be entertaining.
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Mar 20, 2015 05:49
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JosephWongKS posted:
Secrets are secrets for a reason. Also moving large rocks from point A to point B. To build things like pyramids or Machu Pichu or stonehenge or what have you. And Greek Fire and Damascus steel Moreover, scientists aren't Renaissance ubermensch polymaths. Modern scientists typically make breakthroughs in their particular field after years of study and are by-and-large ignorant of other fields. You can't reasonably compare a 'scientist' from a century ago to someone today. Comparing Planck or Einstein's knowledge of physics to Brenner or Bray's expertise in biology is comparing apples and oranges. Physicists from a century ago have a deeper understanding of physics than Nobel wining biologists, shock and surprise. Would anyone argue that Bohr or Einstein's 'powers' are nothing compared to 2014 Nobel laureate Shuji Nakamura? Creating practical blue LEDs is a great advance, surely. But we aren't all that much closer to unified field theory since Einstein worked on it, and Nakamura et al are too busy making money and chasing their own projects to care to push boundaries in theoretical physics. The romantic Da Vinci ideal of the lone autodidact polymath genius is merely a Hollywood construct. A popular and enduring one, but a construct and not reflective of reality. This sort of thing is simply not how science advances. Which is too bad for Yud, who plays up his 'self-taught, dropped out of school at 12 genius' aspect as much as possible. And tries to convince people reading the handful of blog posts he writes and calls a Sequence will make them an expert in a field. And that sort of thinking IS damaging.
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Mar 20, 2015 05:53
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i81icu812 posted:The romantic Da Vinci ideal of the lone autodidact polymath genius is merely a Hollywood construct. A popular and enduring one, but a construct and not reflective of reality. This sort of thing is simply not how science advances. Which is too bad for Yud, who plays up his 'self-taught, dropped out of school at 12 genius' aspect as much as possible. And tries to convince people reading the handful of blog posts he writes and calls a Sequence will make them an expert in a field. And that sort of thinking IS damaging. Yes, but this is literally what Yud dreams of being, too. He thinks he's a Hollywood Scientist.
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Mar 20, 2015 06:04
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petrol blue posted:Hey, at least he beat his brothers and got out of the tag division. That's an amazing picture.
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Mar 20, 2015 06:28
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quote:’m genuinely baffled as to what Harry means by “But because science rests upon my human intelligence, it is the power that cannot be removed from me without removing me”. Could someone kindly clarify for me? Remember that in HPMOR, intelligence defines a person. And science isn't about empiricism in HPMOR, it's about thinking hard and then knowing the answer. So science = intelligence = personhood. So you can't take Harry's science without his personhood.
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Mar 20, 2015 07:14
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su3su2u1 posted:Remember that in HPMOR, intelligence defines a person. And science isn't about empiricism in HPMOR, it's about thinking hard and then knowing the answer. Eliezarry is a terribly, terribly broken child. 
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Mar 20, 2015 07:20
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su3su2u1 posted:Remember that in HPMOR, intelligence defines a person. And science isn't about empiricism in HPMOR, it's about thinking hard and then knowing the answer. JosephWongKS posted:I’m genuinely baffled as to what Harry means by “But because science rests upon my human intelligence, it is the power that cannot be removed from me without removing me”. Could someone kindly clarify for me?
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Mar 20, 2015 07:38
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JosephWongKS posted:Chapter 7 – Reciprocation Because Harry has the script. Obviously. Doubtlessly this will be a future plot point.
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Mar 20, 2015 08:11
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It's amusing to see Yud put forth the idea that science is this forbidden power and that Harry (and Yud) have a secret method that makes it infinitely more powerful because they BELIEVE IN THE POWER OF MAN.
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Mar 20, 2015 08:17
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i81icu812 posted:Because Harry has the script. Obviously. Doubtlessly this will be a future plot point. Well that plus he's trying to convert Draco, who IS convinced it's in the blood, so going "yeah muggle science can analyze inheritance of biological traits, pretty useful huh" doesn't actually require Harry to believe it at all. Also it is a future plot point, but rather they actually test it after Harry goes "wouldn't you like proof to be able to rub in all the non-deatheater's faces?" reignonyourparade fucked around with this message at 09:09 on Mar 20, 2015 |
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Mar 20, 2015 09:06
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reignonyourparade posted:Well that plus he's trying to convert Draco, who IS convinced it's in the blood, so going "yeah muggle science can analyze inheritance of biological traits, pretty useful huh" doesn't actually require Harry to believe it at all. But the test is stupid and broken because either Harry or Yudkowsky doesn't understand how genetics works.
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Mar 20, 2015 09:19
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akulanization posted:Ironically, this is a very Aristotelian way of looking at the world and basically as anti-science as taking the bible as incontrovertible divine truth. This fic's attitude to science is pretty heavily Aristotlean in general. Keep looking for stuff like that. It'd be interesting to see what LW has to say about the big guy.
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Mar 20, 2015 09:54
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That whole segment on teaching Draco the wonders of muggle science irritates me more than the drat rape comment. Wizards know what cars are, and trains. They're not totally ignorant of muggle society. So how the gently caress does Draco not know what a loving rocket is? I've wanted to read about a culture clash between muggles and wizards ever since Rowling teased it in Half Blood Prince (and then promptly dropped it the very next chapter), but this condescending attitude and absolute worship of selective sciences just ends up pissing me off.
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Mar 20, 2015 15:54
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Arcsquad12 posted:I've wanted to read about a culture clash between muggles and wizards ever since Rowling teased it in Half Blood Prince (and then promptly dropped it the very next chapter), but this condescending attitude and absolute worship of selective sciences just ends up pissing me off. By the way, are there any entertaining "Connecticut Yankee in King Arthur's Court" style, 'science turns magical world upside down' books or series floating around there?
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Mar 20, 2015 16:37
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Pottermore goes into a lot more detail. Basically, wizards know about muggle tech, they [url=http://pottermore.wikia.com/wiki/Technologyjust don't give a gently caress[/url]. And even the most pureblood-pride guys love cars. Apparently they took the idea of toilets from muggles. Before the 18th century, wizards just pissed wherever, then magicked away the evidence. Tunicate fucked around with this message at 17:54 on Mar 20, 2015 |
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Mar 20, 2015 17:51
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Arcsquad12 posted:That whole segment on teaching Draco the wonders of muggle science irritates me more than the drat rape comment. Wizards know what cars are, and trains. They're not totally ignorant of muggle society. So how the gently caress does Draco not know what a loving rocket is? Those run on magic though, I don't think wizards actually understand how muggle cars work, it's implied they are just as clueless about guns. Wizards have been shown to be ignorant about muggles to a ridiculously unbelievable degree in the books too.
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Mar 20, 2015 17:53
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Avalerion posted:Those run on magic though, I don't think wizards actually understand how muggle cars work, it's implied they are just as clueless about guns. Wizards have been shown to be ignorant about muggles to a ridiculously unbelievable degree in the books too. Like, their muggle expert (Mr Weasley) is fascinated by plugs, and doesnt understand electricity. They have to mention in their reporting that a 'gun' is a kind of 'muggle wand they use to kill each other'. A racist family like the Malfoys not knowing about rockets seems credible in light of that.
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Mar 20, 2015 18:24
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LowellDND posted:Like, their muggle expert (Mr Weasley) is fascinated by plugs, and doesnt understand electricity. They have to mention in their reporting that a 'gun' is a kind of 'muggle wand they use to kill each other'. Draco brags about outflying a helicopter in Sorcerer's Stone.
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Mar 20, 2015 18:38
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Frankly if I were faced with a world where there were magic and wizards, and magic wasn't entirely some inherited trait, I'd focus on reforming the curriculum of magic instruction and getting it as widespread as possible. That would do a lot more than most scientific interventions other than "regular handwashing and principles of sewage draining."
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Mar 20, 2015 18:58
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