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Obama, sticking to his campaign promises, is bringing the troops home! As he predicted, Yemen has been a real success story in how to fight terrorism. http://edition.cnn.com/2015/03/21/middleeast/yemen-unrest/ quote:The U.S. military is in the process of evacuating about 100 Special Operations forces members from the Al Anad airbase in Yemen due to that country's deteriorating security situation, sources in the region familiar with the situation told CNN. Oh wait.
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Mar 21, 2015 16:34
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| # ? Jun 3, 2024 09:39 |
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We will force you to be free.
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Mar 21, 2015 16:43
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Sounds like we're on the brink of a long-term Turk/Kurd peace deal. http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-31998336?ocid=socialflow_twitter
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Mar 21, 2015 16:50
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 I love the shout out to her book.
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Mar 21, 2015 16:53
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Has anything at all been going on in Oman? Also, isn't their form of Islam distinct from the other two main branches?
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Mar 21, 2015 17:18
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Volkerball posted:It's not hard to follow. Miltank said that ISIS "as it currently is" couldn't exist today without the Iraq War, and I said that JaN or some other group would've filled their role. Now what are you on about? This confuses me as I thought Al-Qaeda in Iraq (ISIS) had helped set up al-Nusra Front to begin with. Isn't that the reason they're so effective? I don't think it's true at all that the situation woud have been largely the same without the Iraq War.
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Mar 21, 2015 17:33
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J33uk posted:Obama, sticking to his campaign promises, is bringing the troops home! As he predicted, Yemen has been a real success story in how to fight terrorism. The Houthis are calling for a general mobilization, while Hadi made a speech today where he declared he wanted to plant the national flag in Saada (the Houthi's home cty) and drive out the "Iranians". Full scale war is almost certainly coming to Yemen at this point.
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Mar 21, 2015 17:50
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Volkerball posted:Sounds like we're on the brink of a long-term Turk/Kurd peace deal. If this gets signed do you think this helps or hinders the chances for a Kurdistan that gets carved out of Iraq & Syria?
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Mar 21, 2015 18:11
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karl fungus posted:Has anything at all been going on in Oman? The majority of Omanis (75% of the population) practice the Ibadhi denomination of Islam. The Ibadhi movement predates both the Sunni and Shi'ite schools and has doctrinal differences with each: - Like Shi'ites, Ibadhis do not believe that God will show himself to Muslims on Judgment Day (Sunnis do). - Unlike Sunnis, Ibadhis believe that those who enter Hell will remain there forever. - Ibadhis believe the Quran was created by God himself at some point in time, whereas Sunnis believe the Quran is the word of God. - Ibadhis believe that Muslim communities are free to rule themselves (as opposed to necessarily being ruled via a Caliphate or Imamah). - While Ibadhis agree that a Muslim could potentially be fit to lead all Muslims, they do not believe it is necessary for the ruler to be a descendant from Muhammad's tribe. (thanks Wikipedia ^^) What we know of today as Oman is a fairly recent development. Until the 1960s, the interior was ruled by Ibadhi imams whereas the coastal region was ruled by the Sultanate of Muscat. When oil was discovered in the interior, the Sultan (with military support from the British  ) moved to remove the imam from power and to expand the Sultanate's territory (hence the Sultanate of Muscat is now the Sultanate of Oman). In 2004, several dozen Ibadhis were arrested and charged with belonging to an illegal group seeking to overthrow the Sultan Qaboos and restore an Ibadhi imam to rule over Oman. Within seven months or so, Qaboos issued a full pardon to each of those accused of trying to overthrow him. Aside from that event, I haven't heard of much discussion concerning a push to recreate an (Ibadhi) religious state, BUT, I'm curious to see what happens politically within Oman as Qaboos is pretty old, has hinted that he's in declining health, and there is no heir to the throne. I imagine there will be a fair amount of fighting/maneuvering within the royal family and who knows if some fringe group tries to get in on the confusion (chaos?).
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Mar 21, 2015 20:40
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How are Ibadhis viewed by the other two branches?
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Mar 21, 2015 20:54
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karl fungus posted:How are Ibadhis viewed by the other two branches? From what I can tell the majority view of the worlds Muslims is "what the gently caress is an Ibadhi". They're pretty much only in Oman, which is kind of isolated in many ways from the majority of the Muslim world. Maybe Al-Saqr can enlighten us, as hes from the Gulf States who are probably the only community of Muslims who give a poo poo.
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Mar 21, 2015 21:07
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karl fungus posted:How are Ibadhis viewed by the other two branches? Sunnis at least, (i'm from the UAE) tend to say there is no qualms with praying with them, unlike those shiites  but its really mostly Omani relations with other countries that seems to define this over any religious differences, and it seems to be at least positive from what i'm seeing. They're also a mediator on behalf of Iran (the current talks that were going on were basically originally started with Omanis mediating), the country enjoys good relations with all their neighbours (Iran, and the gulf countries) except probably yemen.
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Mar 21, 2015 21:12
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Buzzfeeds good journalist had an interesting piece on the effect IED's are having on the effort to root out ISIS. The scale of use is unprecedented, and they've mastered the art. http://www.buzzfeed.com/mikegiglio/the-hidden-enemy-in-iraq#.baG1gkGlb
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Mar 21, 2015 21:27
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Volkerball posted:Buzzfeeds good journalist had an interesting piece on the effect IED's are having on the effort to root out ISIS. The scale of use is unprecedented, and they've mastered the art. Interesting to see just how pervasive the Iranian assistance is now. Got to imagine the GCC crew are trying to figure out how to counter that. Moving away from the political side of all of this, the sheer loving desperation/balls/faith or whatever it is that's keeping those EOD guys going is amazing.
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Mar 21, 2015 21:37
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karl fungus posted:How are Ibadhis viewed by the other two branches? My Turkish friends think they're pretty weird but harmless, my other Muslim friends might not know what an Ibadi is if I didn't mention Oman. That's my anecdotal contribution, you're welcome. Also, Omani relations with Yemen were pretty alright under Saleh, but the Omani government (being boring and sensible and no fun at all) likes stability a whole lot and, well, Yemen is Yemen.
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Mar 21, 2015 22:31
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How does Sufism fit into all of this? Are they a separate branch of Islam too, or is it an entirely unrelated concept? Lastly, are they also being persecuted in these regions?
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Mar 21, 2015 22:55
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Volkerball posted:Sounds like we're on the brink of a long-term Turk/Kurd peace deal. This is repetition of a similar statement he made a couple of weeks ago that tried to push the PKK to call a conference by Newroz (which hasn't happened). In related news al-Jazeera recently scored an interview with Cemil Bayık (current leader of the PKK on the ground) who implied that no such congress would be called until Ocalan's release. Full video here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Ywiwl3oEpE
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Mar 21, 2015 23:02
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karl fungus posted:How does Sufism fit into all of this? Are they a separate branch of Islam too, or is it an entirely unrelated concept? Lastly, are they also being persecuted in these regions? Destruction of shrines/mosques of sufi figures is common, they aren't a sect though, they exist in every sect as far as i know, you become a sufi if you adopt some sort of ascetic lifestyle. Edit: to elaborate on the persecution bit, as far as i know, and its anecdotal, TV stopped bringing sufi personalities on big tv channels and shows for a while now, and in some places, primarily Africa and Iraq/Syria sufi shrines/mosques are being destroyed for idolatry or other reasons, people generally don't mind them though. Sufism is pretty popular among western converts though, all the white american converts that i know are at least some variation of sufi. Fizzil fucked around with this message at 23:23 on Mar 21, 2015 |
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Mar 21, 2015 23:17
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Fizzil posted:Destruction of shrines/mosques of sufi figures is common, they aren't a sect though, they exist in every sect as far as i know, you become a sufi if you adopt some sort of ascetic lifestyle. Sufism is also One Heck Of A Thing in South Asia. Which makes sense, it was/is relatively syncretism-friendly as early Muslim schools of thought go.
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Mar 22, 2015 00:22
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I think Sufism is pretty much just metaphysical / mystical Islam, as opposed to focusing on legalism
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Mar 22, 2015 02:09
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icantfindaname posted:I think Sufism is pretty much just metaphysical / mystical Islam, as opposed to focusing on legalism This, basically.
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Mar 22, 2015 02:10
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also, like any branch, Sufism has different levels, there are some Sufis who are widely watched on TV in the gulf (his name escapes me at the moment) who don't believe in the purely mystical aspects of Sufism, and then there are Sufis who literally dance and wail themselves into a trancelike mystical state.
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Mar 22, 2015 02:14
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That's pretty cool, thanks. Is there an analog for it in the Judeo-Christian tradition, or is it another thing unique to Islam? The mystical/ritual aspect sounds similar to some parts of Eastern Orthodoxy. Speaking of which, have there been any efforts to evacuate Christians from ISIS-controlled territories?
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Mar 22, 2015 02:40
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karl fungus posted:That's pretty cool, thanks. Is there an analog for it in the Judeo-Christian tradition, or is it another thing unique to Islam? The mystical/ritual aspect sounds similar to some parts of Eastern Orthodoxy. Monks, I guess.
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Mar 22, 2015 02:43
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karl fungus posted:That's pretty cool, thanks. Is there an analog for it in the Judeo-Christian tradition, or is it another thing unique to Islam? The mystical/ritual aspect sounds similar to some parts of Eastern Orthodoxy. Mysticism is pretty common across most Christian denominations, it's emphasized pretty heavily in the Gospel of John. I don't know nearly enough to say this, but from what I can tell Islam in general is less mystical and much more focused on religious law. Christianity does have religious law, like Canon Law with the Catholic/Orthodox church, and the Deuteronomic Law, but it seems to be a much bigger deal in Islam, and Sufism is an exception to that. Someone who knows more about this maybe could speak about it?
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Mar 22, 2015 02:48
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icantfindaname posted:Mysticism is pretty common across most Christian denominations, it's emphasized pretty heavily in the Gospel of John. I don't know nearly enough to say this, but from what I can tell Islam in general is less mystical and much more focused on religious law. Christianity does have religious law, like Canon Law with the Catholic/Orthodox church, and the Deuteronomic Law, but it seems to be a much bigger deal in Islam, and Sufism is an exception to that. Kyrie Eleison 
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Mar 22, 2015 03:08
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karl fungus posted:That's pretty cool, thanks. Is there an analog for it in the Judeo-Christian tradition, or is it another thing unique to Islam? The mystical/ritual aspect sounds similar to some parts of Eastern Orthodoxy.
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Mar 22, 2015 03:13
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karl fungus posted:That's pretty cool, thanks. Is there an analog for it in the Judeo-Christian tradition, or is it another thing unique to Islam? The mystical/ritual aspect sounds similar to some parts of Eastern Orthodoxy. The Quakers are pretty much this exactly. They used to shake around to connect with the Holy Spirit; also Pentecostals.
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Mar 22, 2015 04:01
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warderenator posted:The Quakers are pretty much this exactly. They used to shake around to connect with the Holy Spirit; also Pentecostals. The Shakers did that much more, and still do that to this day, all like 10 of them left in the world. The Quakers for the most part only did it a small amount, but it was seized upon to ridicule them.
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Mar 22, 2015 04:05
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karl fungus posted:That's pretty cool, thanks. Is there an analog for it in the Judeo-Christian tradition, or is it another thing unique to Islam? The mystical/ritual aspect sounds similar to some parts of Eastern Orthodoxy. Hasidism is Jewish spiritualism/mysticism developed in contrast to more traditional, legalistic focuses on Torah/Talmud study, a response to Messianic movements in Poland/Ukraine led by Sabbatai Zevi and Jacob Frank. Hasidism and non-Hasidic Haredis used to be in a blood feud, and now they agree that Hitler was a divine response to secularism, and that it's a good idea to spit on little girls that walk in the wrong neighborhoods. Even though this schism is long faded and not even really that well known any more, most emigrants to America came from one side of this geographic feud or the other, and some of the stereotypes of both sides still clearly exist.
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Mar 22, 2015 04:27
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Nintendo Kid posted:The Shakers did that much more, and still do that to this day, all like 10 of them left in the world.
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Mar 22, 2015 07:09
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A couple days ago, Iran sent 185 tons of weapons to Houthi's in Yemen. http://english.alarabiya.net/en/News/middle-east/2015/03/20/Iranian-ship-unloads-185-tons-of-weapons-for-Houthis-at-Saleef-port.html Today, they took control of Taiz, and the city rose up. People are burning tires to prevent forces from being able to move. There's reports of protesters being fired on, but so far, the only injured I've seen have been from tear gas inhalation. All in all, things are not looking good.   
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Mar 22, 2015 11:04
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Human Rights Watch has a new report on Shia militias demolishing and burning buildings and villages outside of Amerli after ISIS was pushed out.  The pictures they took that they used to judge which buildings had been demolished or burned down after ISIS withdrew still had fires burning weeks afterwards in some cases.  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZgSQUu_06qM They also touch on abductions and killings, but it seems like people around Amerli had largely already fled, so all there was to do was loot and burn. They've covered way more serious cases of that in other reports. http://features.hrw.org/features/HRW_2015_reports/Iraq_Amerli/index.html
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Mar 22, 2015 11:42
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It's super frustrating to see people arguing that we should be aligning ourselves with the Iranians when the Iraqi government they've supported and the militias they've created have done more to alienate Iraq's Sunnis than pretty much anything else in the last five years. (The decade before was us, natch) I mean, we should absolutely reach a detente with Iran, but the Islamic Republic's influence on the country has been at best supremely counterproductive to stopping ISIS.
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Mar 22, 2015 13:02
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Nintendo Kid posted:The Shakers did that much more, and still do that to this day, all like 10 of them left in the world. I've been to the last Shaker community. It's a tourist attraction in Maine with some very interesting architecture and displays of their furniture and handicrafts. The Shakers or "shaking Quakers" are a strange little off-shoot of the Religious Society of Friends (everyone else calls us "Quakers" and we don't really mind, but among ourselves we generally prefer to go by "Friends"), but also rather different -- certainly the Friends have never been celibate. There are a number of differences among the Friends, and I haven't gone to meeting in years -- like some Puritan sects we have "meetinghouses" rather than "churches" and call our Sunday (or 'Firstday" since Sun worship is blasphemous) services "meeting for worship" -- so I'm not going to speak for the whole sect, but my particular (non-programmatic Western North American) branch of the Friends has no pastors or ministers and follows the old tradition of silent worship. Basically, we sit there for an hour, if someone feels particularly inspired they might say a few words. Anyone can feel the spirit of God ("the Light" in Quakerese) and everyone is equally qualified to give ministry. Sometimes lots of people speak in turn, sometimes no one speaks at all. It depends on the mood of the meeting. Mostly people just sit quietly. The whole thing's almost like a form of group meditation. Afterwards, the clerk would read the announcements and we'd go have refreshments. That's just one tradition within the Friends, however, "programmed" meetings with pastors, and sermons, and even (*gasp*) hymns more in-line with mainstream Protestantism are actually much more common these days (it turns out they make much more effective missionaries). Friends tradition rejects rigid doctrines or church hierarchies, so we're basically not allowed to argue over which version of Quakerism is the "real" one (not that that always stops us), so there's a high tolerance for some fairly unorthodox splinter groups (just ask all the Buddhist Friends out there), but generally speaking the Friends reject the more extreme forms of Spiritualism (you're not likely to finds us having fits or speaking in tongues). This wasn't always true, however. Some early meetings (like 1700s early) could get pretty intense and take George Fox's message to "tremble at the Word of the Lord" rather literally. Some people say that's what the name "Quaker" comes from, but I was always told it was because an early Friend told a judge he'd "quake with fear before God on his Day of Judgement." I'm not sure anyone really knows. Anyway, the Shakers came out of the fringe of the fringe and had basically stopped having anything to do with mainstream Friends by the 19th century. There are, however a few key similarities that they share with each other and other mystical traditions like the Sufis and Gnostics. One is the notion of equality before God -- Quakers like to say "there's that of God in all of us" -- and that means that we are all linked to the divine and worthy in the eyes of God and don't need a cleric or scholar to interpret God's will for us. The other is what we might call "gnosis" or revelation. Quakers spend a lot of time listening for God and the expectation is that eventually we'll hear back (I never did, and that's a big part of why I stopped going to meeting, but I know lots of people who say they have). This doesn't mean a big booming voice will sound in your head and tell you what to do (not usually, anyway) it's more like a feeling or an impression you get. You open yourself to the Lord and let the light shine within you and in the process you come to a new understanding perhaps of something you didn't even know you didn't understand before. Or, at least, that's what I've been told.
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Mar 22, 2015 13:20
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karl fungus posted:How does Sufism fit into all of this? Are they a separate branch of Islam too, or is it an entirely unrelated concept? Lastly, are they also being persecuted in these regions? It's been gone over but I'll effort. Sufism has a couple of lineages like the legalistic lineages of the Sunni groups or like the Shia Imam's. Most of the orders are thus named after whoever they consider their most important fork. Most branches of Sufism put a high emphasis on teacher->student relations because of this. A Sufi master passes on his blessing to his students, one of whom will succeed him, and if there's more than one qualified, they might leave to start teaching elsewhere. A lot of times you get sons succeeding fathers this way (naturally, the sons have spent their whole lives under their father's teaching, so he's a natural candidate.) Sufism can overlay a lot of 'regular' theology so you can be a Sunni-Sufi or Shia-Sufi or whatever, but the Sufi bits can take precedence, leading to a nominally Sunni-Sufi acting very differently than the typical Sunni. Sufism is, like all the other Islamic theological debates, more or less centers on how to be a Muslim without a prophet there to guide you, since Muhammad was the seal and so sort of the last chance to get this right. The Sufi way says, essentially, that certain individuals can get guidance on their own or find a more direct path to god. A lot of emphasis is usually put on the idea of God's unity, all being, and general omnipresence. Al-Hallaj is a famous Sufi martyr that a lot of sects draw their lineage to who likes to declare "I am God!" and claimed he could go on the Hajj in his own backyard. This sort of behavior is known as 'drunken Sufism,' which occasionally becomes literally, or Sufism that intentionally flouts or mocks convention in order to emphasis their more direct connection to God. Something like the Mevlevi branch (aka the Whirling Dervishes) is often seen pretty similarly, others say that they're very 'sober Sufi' in that they take their mediation very seriously and don't go out of their way to cause trouble. Other Sufi branches are very sober indeed, the Senussi in Libya (who later went on the be the monarch) grew up from the Idrisid school. Idris was one of a number of reformers looking to restore Islam to a better state, much like the Wahabbists, though obviously Idris took a different tack on the issue. Anyway, Senussi ended up in Libya in part because he wanted to give the local tribes a more orthodox education. Most western related schools would be like the Neo-Platonists, though there's a big dust up in Islamic philosophy after a certain while. Al Ghazali called out the philosophers for rating Greek texts above the Qu'ran and advocated a more Sufi-y approach, but some elements (like that whole unity thing) remained pretty strong. Mostly though Sufism has better parallels in some Hindu and Buddhist sects. It's obviously not one-to-one and Sufism has evolved to fill a whole lot of niches, but you can see, e.g. some of the asceticism, mortification of the flesh, radical meditation, even speaking in koan-like riddles. (E.g. poo poo like "I am God.")
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Mar 22, 2015 15:39
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illrepute posted:It's super frustrating to see people arguing that we should be aligning ourselves with the Iranians when the Iraqi government they've supported and the militias they've created have done more to alienate Iraq's Sunnis than pretty much anything else in the last five years. (The decade before was us, natch)
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Mar 22, 2015 18:13
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If this situation were somehow unfolding without having the Iraq war as a root cause, I can only imagine the call to intervene with ground forces to destroy ISIS and peacekeepers to prevent the militias from slaughtering each other would be overwhelming. America's ability to try and contain the damage it's done is limited to only a handful of clearly inadequate tools, to the point that it seems all we get to influence is who massacres who. I mean, ISIS has to go, and the people they were attacking need help, but the chaos and civil war will carry on regardless.
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Mar 22, 2015 18:37
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ISIS will stick around and continue to mutate, possibly even into worse forms. It sounds crazy, but then again Al-Qadea used to be viewed as the crazy force in the region and they now almost seem like respectable moderates. Can't wait to see the new terrorist group that emerges from this conflict that makes us long for the "relative" sanity of ISIS.
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Mar 22, 2015 18:43
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Remember when the FSA were terrible, horrible jihadists?
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Mar 22, 2015 18:45
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