EuroPol: abide by D&D values or don't post

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YF-23: Feb 17, 2011; My god, it's full of cat!

The condition in which the French political scene will be after the next election is curious, though. If we see a UMP-PS coalition in the style of CDU-SPD and ND-PASOK, leaving FN as the primary opposition, we'll be seeing some mighty serious poo poo going down in the following decade.

# ? Mar 23, 2015 15:25

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# ? Jun 3, 2024 17:02

double nine: Aug 8, 2013

Re: France. It's an abysmal failure of the French right that the best they have is Sarkozy II, the revengenance. OTOH, loving Hollande man. Talk about a disappointment.

# ? Mar 23, 2015 15:35

LemonDrizzle: Mar 28, 2012; neoliberal shithead

YF-23 posted:

The condition in which the French political scene will be after the next election is curious, though. If we see a UMP-PS coalition in the style of CDU-SPD and ND-PASOK, leaving FN as the primary opposition, we'll be seeing some mighty serious poo poo going down in the following decade.

Is that at all plausible? France has a sort of first past the post system for electing parliamentarians, so to get a significant number of seats the FN would have to be able to carry a majority of the vote in a large number of electoral districts. That seems unlikely since presumably socialist/UMP voters will continue to hold their noses and vote for the other party's guy in the second round elections to keep the FN out

# ? Mar 23, 2015 15:39

Cat Mattress: Jul 14, 2012; by Cyrano4747

Voting advice from Valls: if you have the choice between UMP and FN, vote UMP
Voting advice from Sarkozy: if you have the choice between PS and FN, abstain

# ? Mar 23, 2015 16:05

Pinch Me Im Meming: Jun 26, 2005

France is a country imploding in very slow motion.

# ? Mar 23, 2015 16:39

V. Illych L.: Apr 11, 2008; ASK ME ABOUT LUMBER

The French political scene is disintegrating, at least. It is very irritating that the radical left, which made a fairly strong showing in the last presidential elections, seems to have pretty much collapsed on itself and is unable to rise as a counterweight to the sheer insanity that's going on atm

loving france

# ? Mar 23, 2015 17:01

Antwan3K: Mar 8, 2013

V. Illych L. posted:

The French political scene is disintegrating, at least. It is very irritating that the radical left, which made a fairly strong showing in the last presidential elections, seems to have pretty much collapsed on itself and is unable to rise as a counterweight to the sheer insanity that's going on atm

loving france

It hasn't though? Only 20 out of the 37 percent that voted left wing went to 'PS et alliés'. Écologists have also moved closer to Melenchon, though there's a lot of internal struggle around this choice now.

# ? Mar 23, 2015 17:12

V. Illych L.: Apr 11, 2008; ASK ME ABOUT LUMBER

from what my people are saying, the whole Left Front project that rallied to Melenchon's candidacy last time is creaking badly at the seams

i'm not there personally, though, so i'm just carrying on what some of my PCF mates are saying, and they've been grumbling for a year and a half or so at this point

# ? Mar 23, 2015 17:15

Mans: Sep 14, 2011; by Jeffrey of YOSPOS

the day that the french left decides to do something other than to split every time they gather 50 people in the same room it will be the day france stops being a joke

# ? Mar 23, 2015 17:16

Junior G-man: Sep 15, 2004; Wrapped in a mystery, inside an enigma

The meeting to end all meetings to decide the War With Greece has started.

Except there will be no conclusions and we once again throw the dice with some unforeseen stock market horse poo poo exploding the Greek banking system by accident. Follow the latest unfounded gossip and psychologically-debilitating press conferences HERE.

This continent man :psyduck:

# ? Mar 23, 2015 17:16

Antwan3K: Mar 8, 2013

V. Illych L. posted:

from what my people are saying, the whole Left Front project that rallied to Melenchon's candidacy last time is creaking badly at the seams

i'm not there personally, though, so i'm just carrying on what some of my PCF mates are saying, and they've been grumbling for a year and a half or so at this point

As usual the problem is one of unity, not necessarily numbers

# ? Mar 23, 2015 17:18

V. Illych L.: Apr 11, 2008; ASK ME ABOUT LUMBER

^^yeah, it's sad

Mans posted:

the day that the french left decides to do something other than to split every time they gather 50 people in the same room it will be the day france stops being a joke

eh, the PCF, for all its faults, has managed to be a stable and relatively solid radical party consistently since the second world war, that is better than almost all their sisters in the richer parts of Europe. the left everywhere splits at a moment's notice, I don't think the french are worse than the rest of us, sadly.

# ? Mar 23, 2015 17:20

Riso: Oct 11, 2008; by merry exmarx

The French left has abandoned the common working man to focus on immigrants and gay people. It is now shocked the very people the French elite has denigrated for years as racists et al is now voting for the only party that seemingly cares: FN.

# ? Mar 23, 2015 17:23

V. Illych L.: Apr 11, 2008; ASK ME ABOUT LUMBER

Riso posted:

The French left has abandoned the common working man to focus on immigrants and gay people. It is now shocked the very people the French elite has denigrated for years as racists et al is now voting for the only party that seemingly cares: FN.

die

# ? Mar 23, 2015 17:26

Antwan3K: Mar 8, 2013

Riso posted:

The French left has abandoned the common working man to focus on immigrants and gay people. It is now shocked the very people the French elite has denigrated for years as racists et al is now voting for the only party that seemingly cares: FN.

That's something FN indeed says about PS. Not about PCF though as that would be absurd. We're talking about a party where people show up to rallies in their work overalls. FN just dismisses them as communists, the same way the others do.

# ? Mar 23, 2015 17:29

Double Bill: Jan 29, 2006

GaussianCopula posted:

What is there to say? Hollande is doomed, FN did not have the big victory everyone predicted but are still 2nd, Sarkozy will get elected in 2017.

Isn't FN actually the single biggest party now? Sarkozy won because of a coalition.

# ? Mar 23, 2015 17:53

LemonDrizzle: Mar 28, 2012; neoliberal shithead

Some MEP apparently used the term "austericide" when asking Draghi questions about the ECB's policies. Good way to get yourself taken seriously, that.

# ? Mar 23, 2015 17:53

YF-23: Feb 17, 2011; My god, it's full of cat!

LemonDrizzle posted:

Some MEP apparently used the term "austericide" when asking Draghi questions about the ECB's policies. Good way to get yourself taken seriously, that.

If people can say "Grexit" and "Graccident" and not get ridiculed...

# ? Mar 23, 2015 18:23

Cat Mattress: Jul 14, 2012; by Cyrano4747

V. Illych L. posted:

^^yeah, it's sad

eh, the PCF, for all its faults, has managed to be a stable and relatively solid radical party consistently since the second world war, that is better than almost all their sisters in the richer parts of Europe. the left everywhere splits at a moment's notice, I don't think the french are worse than the rest of us, sadly.

The PCF is a joke, and has been a joke since Marchais retired.

Riso posted:

The French left has abandoned the common working man to focus on immigrants and gay people. It is now shocked the very people the French elite has denigrated for years as racists et al is now voting for the only party that seemingly cares: FN.

That's the narrative that the FN has managed to push. A lot of people are now convinced it's true. Hint: the key word here is in "seemingly".

To be fair though it's inevitable that the FN will rise to power, first because getting fascists in a position of power is the inevitable consequence of austerity, and secondly because politicians who ostensibly want to fight against the FN are so terrible at it that you wonder whether they're not actually FN moles engaging in sabotage operations.

# ? Mar 23, 2015 18:43

Riso: Oct 11, 2008; by merry exmarx

Cat Mattress posted:

That's the narrative that the FN has managed to push. A lot of people are now convinced it's true. Hint: the key word here is in "seemingly".

To be fair though it's inevitable that the FN will rise to power, first because getting fascists in a position of power is the inevitable consequence of austerity, and secondly because politicians who ostensibly want to fight against the FN are so terrible at it that you wonder whether they're not actually FN moles engaging in sabotage operations.

The narrative is true and not fiction. The PS very own think tank has concluded it is so.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/mar/22/alienated-french-working-class-vote-far-right-claims-analyst

quote:

From Le Pen, a damning analysis of this type might be expected. But from a member of the leftwing commentariat? A new �state of the nation� tome, L�Ins�curit� culturelle, by analyst Laurent Bouvet, has caused a storm in Paris salons by suggesting that the country�s working class is ready to vote FN in droves because it has been abandoned by the left and deceived by the country�s Socialist government.

Bouvet accuses the left of sparking an identity crisis � �cultural insecurity� � among its core blue-collar electorate, by almost exclusively focusing on the problems of minority groups instead of French society as a whole. This has left the workers feeling cast adrift and alienated, he says.

Bouvet is a political science professor and member of the leftwing thinktank the Jean Jaur�s Foundation, which advises the Socialist party (PS) and aims to �promote the study of workers� movements and international socialism and promote democratic and humanist ideas�. He says his latest, decidedly politically incorrect, message is one the left does not want to hear.

Bouvet says PC blinkers have prevented the Socialists from addressing working-class anxieties about immigration and the rise of Islam � even in its moderate form � in areas where the so-called Fran�ais de souche (born-and-bred French) find themselves outnumbered by those with a different religion and cultural habits. Branded les petits blancs (white trash), and accused of racism or patronised if they express their fears, they have turned en masse to the FN, he says.

�I�ve been accused of doing the work of the FN, but for me it�s saying things that must be said. It�s better to put these things on the table than sweep them under the carpet. It�s better to air these things in order to fight the FN, which I believe is a danger for the republic.�

# ? Mar 23, 2015 19:06

Stretch Marx: Apr 29, 2008; I'm ok with this.

Riso posted:

The French left has abandoned the common working man to focus on immigrants and gay people. It is now shocked the very people the French elite has denigrated for years as racists et al is now voting for the only party that seemingly cares: FN.

"You are a racist. We don't support racists."
"You're the real racists! We'll vote for the fascist party! That'll show you racists what for!"

Follow your leader, indeed.

# ? Mar 23, 2015 19:07

LemonDrizzle: Mar 28, 2012; neoliberal shithead

One of the reforms Syriza is apparently going to propose in its bid to unlock the bailout cash is privatizations with a twist:

quote:

Greek insiders say Tsipras will almost certainly include privatisations in the list of reforms he will propose to Merkel tonight.
However, there may be conditions which potential buyers could baulk at.
Athens correspondent Helena Smith has the story:
The radical left leader is expected to say he will agree to sell-offs as long as the Greek public sector maintains management control over assets.

(from the Guardian's liveblog)

Mmmm. I'm sure private sector investors will be happy to buy in under those conditions.

# ? Mar 23, 2015 19:17

NihilismNow: Aug 31, 2003

HBNRW posted:

"You are a racist. We don't support racists."
"You're the real racists! We'll vote for the fascist party! That'll show you racists what for!"

Follow your leader, indeed.

After 2 decades of their fears about immigration and competition with low wage workers from the East having been ignored maybe common working class people are ready to say " gently caress it, fascists it is then".
Just keep telling people with legitimate grievances that they are racists, eventually they won't care and will vote for anyone who promises a solution, any solution.

# ? Mar 23, 2015 19:20

Riso: Oct 11, 2008; by merry exmarx

And that is exactly what the analysts from the PS think tank came up with.

# ? Mar 23, 2015 19:29

hump day bitches!: Apr 3, 2011

I thought the betrayal of the social democracy by socialist parties during the past 20 years, due to the trust in markets and all those economics thingies was an established fact.Without the will to tackle economic issues in a different direction, they had to make minority rights (not that I consider those things bad) their linchpin and pay lip-service to the protection of workers and the welfare state while quietly letting it rot.

# ? Mar 23, 2015 20:16

V. Illych L.: Apr 11, 2008; ASK ME ABOUT LUMBER

someone forgot to tell british labour that they were supposed to support minority rights

also the danish social democrats, also norwegian labour

# ? Mar 23, 2015 20:20

hump day bitches!: Apr 3, 2011

V. Illych L. posted:

someone forgot to tell british labour that they were supposed to support minority rights

also the danish social democrats, also norwegian labour

Well thats how it went in Spain.

# ? Mar 23, 2015 20:21

A Buttery Pastry: Sep 4, 2011; Delicious and Informative!

V. Illych L. posted:

someone forgot to tell british labour that they were supposed to support minority rights

also the danish social democrats, also norwegian labour

They do, sort of, a little bit. It's just not immigrants, but sexual minorities. Actually, Britain always scores highly in that regard, so calling it a little bit might not be entirely fair to them.

# ? Mar 23, 2015 20:54

Riso: Oct 11, 2008; by merry exmarx

British labour opened the immigration floodgates and are therefore the preferred party anyway.

# ? Mar 23, 2015 21:02

Badger of Basra: Jul 26, 2007

Riso posted:

British labour opened the immigration floodgates and are therefore the preferred party anyway.

The rivers...have they taken on a red tinge lately?

# ? Mar 23, 2015 21:05

Riso: Oct 11, 2008; by merry exmarx

Badger of Basra posted:

The rivers...have they taken on a red tinge lately?

Are you denying immigration has been opened drastically under new labour?

# ? Mar 23, 2015 21:11

Stretch Marx: Apr 29, 2008; I'm ok with this.

NihilismNow posted:

After 2 decades of their fears about immigration and competition with low wage workers from the East having been ignored maybe common working class people are ready to say " gently caress it, fascists it is then".
Just keep telling people with legitimate grievances that they are racists, eventually they won't care and will vote for anyone who promises a solution, any solution.

"I HATE JEWS AND BLACKS AND ARABS. DEY TOOK MA MONEY/JOB."
"Ok. But that's still racist. Just because you're upset by it, doesn't make blaming people based on their ethnicity any more logical or correct."
"Don't tell them that! We need that racist's vote! DO YOU WANT THEM VOTING FOR THE RACIST FASCIST PARTY?!"
"Thus also confirming we're ok with racism?"
"Err..."

You can't have your cake and eat it too. Either you distance yourself from racists, or you accept racism as part of your party. If France is, as a whole, turning more racist then that's a failure of France's governments/education. France should be one of the few countries particularly weary of fascism. But then again, Europe is historically illiterate so there's that. If France votes in fascists, then they deserve all the poo poo they get.

# ? Mar 23, 2015 21:12

YF-23: Feb 17, 2011; My god, it's full of cat!

It's not a matter of education if Parti Socialiste has fully embraced neoliberalism and people flock to what looks to be the most viable alternative.

# ? Mar 23, 2015 21:23

Pinch Me Im Meming: Jun 26, 2005

People who vote FN are so loving dumb though.

# ? Mar 23, 2015 21:24

NihilismNow: Aug 31, 2003

HBNRW posted:

"I HATE JEWS AND BLACKS AND ARABS. DEY TOOK MA MONEY/JOB."
"Ok. But that's still racist. Just because you're upset by it, doesn't make blaming people based on their ethnicity any more logical or correct."
"Don't tell them that! We need that racist's vote! DO YOU WANT THEM VOTING FOR THE RACIST FASCIST PARTY?!"
"Thus also confirming we're ok with racism?"
"Err..."

You can't have your cake and eat it too. Either you distance yourself from racists, or you accept racism as part of your party. If France is, as a whole, turning more racist then that's a failure of France's governments/education. France should be one of the few countries particularly weary of fascism. But then again, Europe is historically illiterate so there's that. If France votes in fascists, then they deserve all the poo poo they get.

That is a nice strawman. There is a small group of hardcore racists but those are not the people who vote these kind of parties into power.
There is a legitimate issue with Islam in europe. There is a legitimate issue with people who have to compete with people who make 1/3rd as much as they are legally allowed to work for and live in run down company owned trailers. A lot of people do not feel comfortable with the integration direction europe is headed in. None of these issues make you a racist but in a lot of countries the only ones who are willing to acknowledge these issues are far right populist parties. Or mainstream political parties acknowledge the issues during the campaign only to promptly switch back to "business as usual" after the election.
I know here in the Netherlands there is a not insignificant ammount of protest voters that swings between SP (socialist party) and PVV (their economic programs are virtually identical anyway).

NihilismNow fucked around with this message at 21:45 on Mar 23, 2015

# ? Mar 23, 2015 21:40

Antwan3K: Mar 8, 2013

It is undeniable that the rise of anti-immigrant racist parties is partly rooted in the complete betrayal by social democrats of their base. The hilariously wrong assumption by right wing posters here though, is that any forums leftist would support a modern neoliberalized social democratic party. I hate them as much as you do! but actually for the right reasons instead of racism

# ? Mar 23, 2015 21:44