Magic: The Gathering: Megathread: Spoiler Argument Stadium

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Traditional Games > Magic: The Gathering: Megathread: Spoiler Argument Stadium

«‹›1101 »

Fingers McLongDong: Nov 30, 2005; not eromenos; Fun Shoe

I just leave my binder in my car and don't trade in person much these days unless it's a friend, and I'll let a close friend borrow my cards. There's a couple people at my shop that are shark traders and it's obnoxious dealing with them. I've actually butted in to a couple of times where they were trading with newer people and pulled out a trading app, or told the new guy to download and reference a trading app before they could be taken advantage of. Somehow they're also the people who least understand supply and demand, so when I go to prereleases and pull high dollar new stuff I trade it all to them.

# ? Mar 25, 2015 05:24

Adbot: ADBOT LOVES YOU

# ? May 12, 2024 16:36

Applebees: Jul 23, 2013; yospos

Kyrosiris posted:

The formatting of the MODO Championships is hilarious. 3 rounds Vintage, 4 rounds Modern on Friday, 3 rounds DTK/DTK/FRF draft, 4 rounds Standard on Saturday, cut to top four, then Standard semifinals into a Vintage/Modern/Standard (if needed) finals.

Holy poo poo that owns.

Could I get a link?

# ? Mar 25, 2015 10:04

Serperoth: Feb 21, 2013

A Strictly Better Post

Strictly better refers to power in a vacuum. Against a goldfish and whatnot, with the only concern being legality (Black Lotus is strictly better than Lotus Petal. It's also banned almost everywhere), and format details (more of a hypothetical thing, but it needs to be mentioned). It's a very narrow thing, since the points of comparison aren't always valid against one another. Lightning Bolt is better than Shock and Searing Spear, but Shock and Spear differ in both mana and damage dealt, so comparing the two in a vacuum is moot.

So, for the points of comparison:

Same thing, less mana
Lightning Bolt and Searing Spear, for example. They're both Instants, that do 3 damage to target creature or player. Bolt does it for cheaper, making it strictly better than Spear. Similar situation with Counterspell and Cancel

Bigger numbers, same mana
Lightning Bolt and Shock. Both Instants, they both cost R. Bolt does 1 more damage to target creature or player than Shock, making it strictly better.

Same thing, with an upside/without a downside
Fleecemane Lion and Watchwolf. They're both 3/3s for WG, except Fleecemane can become a 4/4 hexproof indestructbile as well. It doesn't matter how marginal, it's still an upside. Similar logic with downsides.

Same thing, easier to cast
This has to do with mana. A spell that costs C is harder to cast than one costing C/D for example. Similar to colours, 2C is better than 1CC, and 1CC is better than 1CD.

Specific mana doesn't count (A spell that costs UUU and does the same as one costing BBB are equal), and other alternate costs are harder to compare if they're not the same. In general, pretty much everything (Phyrexian mana, hybrid, 2/C) is better than a straight coloured mana, since it offers an alternative. A spell that costs 1CC and does a hypothetical thing is worse the same spell costing 1(C/P)(C/P), or one costing 1(2/C)(2/C) for example.

# ? Mar 25, 2015 11:13

Kraus: Jan 17, 2008

Serperoth posted:

A Strictly Better Post

Strictly better refers to power in a vacuum. Against a goldfish and whatnot, with the only concern being legality (Black Lotus is strictly better than Lotus Petal. It's also banned almost everywhere), and format details (more of a hypothetical thing, but it needs to be mentioned). It's a very narrow thing, since the points of comparison aren't always valid against one another. Lightning Bolt is better than Shock and Searing Spear, but Shock and Spear differ in both mana and damage dealt, so comparing the two in a vacuum is moot.

So, for the points of comparison:

Same thing, less mana
Lightning Bolt and Searing Spear, for example. They're both Instants, that do 3 damage to target creature or player. Bolt does it for cheaper, making it strictly better than Spear. Similar situation with Counterspell and Cancel

Bigger numbers, same mana
Lightning Bolt and Shock. Both Instants, they both cost R. Bolt does 1 more damage to target creature or player than Shock, making it strictly better.

Same thing, with an upside/without a downside
Fleecemane Lion and Watchwolf. They're both 3/3s for WG, except Fleecemane can become a 4/4 hexproof indestructbile as well. It doesn't matter how marginal, it's still an upside. Similar logic with downsides.

Same thing, easier to cast
This has to do with mana. A spell that costs C is harder to cast than one costing C/D for example. Similar to colours, 2C is better than 1CC, and 1CC is better than 1CD.

Specific mana doesn't count (A spell that costs UUU and does the same as one costing BBB are equal), and other alternate costs are harder to compare if they're not the same. In general, pretty much everything (Phyrexian mana, hybrid, 2/C) is better than a straight coloured mana, since it offers an alternative. A spell that costs 1CC and does a hypothetical thing is worse the same spell costing 1(C/P)(C/P), or one costing 1(2/C)(2/C) for example.

How's Phyrexian mana figure into that?

# ? Mar 25, 2015 12:08

Wezlar: May 13, 2005

If the phyrexian mana makes it easier to cast then it is strictly better

# ? Mar 25, 2015 12:15

is that good: Apr 14, 2012

Watchwolves are better than Fleecemane Lions against a goldfish if I'm running Muraganda Petroglyphs, though. If you mean an absolute vacuum with no other cards then burn spells are impossible to evaluate with this method. Cards that are strictly better than other cards basically don't exist. Just say generally better or better for a situation instead. Trying to decide the term means something else won't help.

# ? Mar 25, 2015 12:20

Serperoth: Feb 21, 2013

Kraus posted:

How's Phyrexian mana figure into that?

I mention it in the end. One phyrexian mana is better than a single mana of that colour. If Peek were a sorcery, then it would be strictly worse than Git Probe.

# ? Mar 25, 2015 12:21

Lancelot: May 23, 2006; Fun Shoe

Allstone posted:

Watchwolves are better than Fleecemane Lions against a goldfish if I'm running Muraganda Petroglyphs, though. If you mean an absolute vacuum with no other cards then burn spells are impossible to evaluate with this method. Cards that are strictly better than other cards basically don't exist. Just say generally better or better for a situation instead. Trying to decide the term means something else won't help.

That's what "in a vacuum" means. Searing Spear is better than Lightning Bolt when I've played a Meddling Mage naming Lightning Bolt. It's still useful for us to say "Lightning Bolt is strictly better than Searing Spear". We just have to bear in mind that "strictly better" means "better in almost all circumstances almost all of the time". Occasionally we'll get pedants who derail useful comparisons with improbable circumstances where the "strictly worse" card is better, but that's the nature of talking with Magic players online.

# ? Mar 25, 2015 12:27

Yawgmoth: Sep 10, 2003; This post is cursed!

Fingers McLongDong posted:

There's a couple people at my shop that are shark traders and it's obnoxious dealing with them. I've actually butted in to a couple of times where they were trading with newer people and pulled out a trading app, or told the new guy to download and reference a trading app before they could be taken advantage of.

I hate it when people do this, doubly so when it's an obviously new player. Not just because it's incredibly rude and rather heartless, but also because it's painfully shortsighted; would you rather have a happy new player (who opens packs on their dime so you don't have to) or a salty new player (who never shows up again/throws away their cards after you fleece them because "the players of this game are dicks")?

It is amazing when you turn the tables on one of those types, though. I traded away my Nissa, Wordwaker and 2 Celestial Colonnade for 5 Polluted Delta, and he was so loving proud/smug of his "amazing trade" until someone showed him that Nissa is in fact not $40 anymore. I might have said something when he made the offer if he hadn't been trying to tell a 13 year old that Muderous Redcap is a $5 card prior to it.

# ? Mar 25, 2015 12:54

black potus: Jul 13, 2006

imo the metric for strictly better should really be if you're in a format with both lightning bolt and searing spear are you ever going to run searing spear in your constructed deck. no, you're not, because you're giving up a ton of equity in order to have some gain in some nonsense fringe scenario. however mana leak vs negate might be informed by metagame, by what deck you're building, etc.

this assumes you're trying to build the best possible deck ofc and not some wonky gimmick deck. watchwolf is better w/ muraganda petroglyphs but then you're playing a petroglyphs deck :I

# ? Mar 25, 2015 13:39

Kyrosiris: May 24, 2006; You try to be happy when everyone is summoning you everywhere to "be their friend".

Applebees posted:

Could I get a link?

It was announced during last night's VSL games, I dunno if there's a link anywhere yet.

# ? Mar 25, 2015 13:40

Starving Autist: Oct 20, 2007; by Ralp

black potus posted:

imo the metric for strictly better should really be if you're in a format with both lightning bolt and searing spear are you ever going to run searing spear in your constructed deck. no, you're not, because you're giving up a ton of equity in order to have some gain in some nonsense fringe scenario. however mana leak vs negate might be informed by metagame, by what deck you're building, etc.

this assumes you're trying to build the best possible deck ofc and not some wonky gimmick deck. watchwolf is better w/ muraganda petroglyphs but then you're playing a petroglyphs deck :I

Yeah, the pedantic definition is practically meaningless, might as well define the term so that it describes an actually existing relationship between the cards instead of having to deal with "well actually, mindslaver :henget:

" whenever someone says lightning bolt and burst lightning are strictly better than shock.

# ? Mar 25, 2015 13:51

AlternateNu: May 5, 2005; ドーナツダメ！

So, now that we're done with this cyclical iteration of the "strictly better" chat coming off of reserve list chat. What's next?

Hmmm. Oh, I just saw this killer game of flip + rip where the guy tore a foil Liliana out of a russian Innistrad pack in front of this 11 year old disabled kid who needed that as his last card for the Modern deck he had been slowly buliding over the last 3 years by saving money scrubbing floors at the orphan's home he lives at.

poo poo was baller, yo.

# ? Mar 25, 2015 13:59

Madmarker: Jan 7, 2007

AlternateNu posted:

So, now that we're done with this cyclical iteration of the "strictly better" chat coming off of reserve list chat. What's next?

Hmmm. Oh, I just saw this killer game of flip + rip where the guy tore a foil Liliana out of a russian Innistrad pack in front of this 11 year old disabled kid who needed that as his last card for the Modern deck he had been slowly buliding over the last 3 years by saving money scrubbing floors at the orphan's home he lives at.

poo poo was baller, yo.

As long as he got that Lilliana from rare redrafting, that's fine by me.

# ? Mar 25, 2015 14:14

Toshimo: Aug 23, 2012; He's outta line...

But he's right!

AlternateNu posted:

Oh, I just saw this killer game of flip + rip where the guy tore a foil Liliana out of a russian Innistrad pack in front of this 11 year old disabled kid who needed that as his last card for the Modern deck he had been slowly buliding over the last 3 years by saving money scrubbing floors at the orphan's home he lives at.

Serves that kid right. That deck is junk, anyway.

# ? Mar 25, 2015 14:26

Madmarker: Jan 7, 2007

Don't be so jundmental.

# ? Mar 25, 2015 14:27

Samael: Oct 16, 2012

AlternateNu posted:

So, now that we're done with this cyclical iteration of the "strictly better" chat coming off of reserve list chat. What's next?

Hmmm. Oh, I just saw this killer game of flip + rip where the guy tore a foil Liliana out of a russian Innistrad pack in front of this 11 year old disabled kid who needed that as his last card for the Modern deck he had been slowly buliding over the last 3 years by saving money scrubbing floors at the orphan's home he lives at.

poo poo was baller, yo.

If we are going full circle, how about bad goonpinions?

Loaded question for you guys, so with the new dragons cards, what deck do you think is going to be the deck to beat? Or is it going to be a reasonably open standard like the past 6 months or so has been?

# ? Mar 25, 2015 14:30

Madmarker: Jan 7, 2007

Samael posted:

If we are going full circle, how about bad goonpinions?

Loaded question for you guys, so with the new dragons cards, what deck do you think is going to be the deck to beat? Or is it going to be a reasonably open standard like the past 6 months or so has been?

I'd expect the format is reasonably open, though control decks got some HUGE boons with Anticipate and Dragonlord's Prerogative meaning I expect their stock to rise somewhat.

# ? Mar 25, 2015 14:32

Toshimo: Aug 23, 2012; He's outta line...

But he's right!

Samael posted:

If we are going full circle, how about bad goonpinions?

Loaded question for you guys, so with the new dragons cards, what deck do you think is going to be the deck to beat? Or is it going to be a reasonably open standard like the past 6 months or so has been?

Mono-U Devo v Selesnya Devo erryday. Nykthos triples in value.

# ? Mar 25, 2015 14:34

Procrastinator: Aug 16, 2009; what?

Toshimo posted:

Serves that kid right. That deck is abzan, anyway.

fixed that for you

Also, I think aggressive green decks might have some legs with a new, better Garruk's Companion and Surrak to start the pain train.

# ? Mar 25, 2015 14:34

Samael: Oct 16, 2012

Madmarker posted:

I'd expect the format is reasonably open, though control decks got some HUGE boons with Anticipate and Dragonlord's Prerogative meaning I expect their stock to rise somewhat.

I think Jund decks with cards like whip, new atarka, see the unwritten, tasigur etc could see a lot of play. A 8/8 that can be whipped back potentially wrathing their board seems good in this potential new meta game with small 2/2s and tokens.

# ? Mar 25, 2015 14:42

mcmagic: Jul 1, 2004; If you see this avatar while scrolling the succ zone, you have been visited by the mcmagic of shitty lib takes! Good luck and prosperity will come to you, but only if you reply "shut the fuck up mcmagic" to this post!

The mana for Jund decks is rough though.

# ? Mar 25, 2015 14:52

black potus: Jul 13, 2006

Starving Autist posted:

Yeah, the pedantic definition is practically meaningless, might as well define the term so that it describes an actually existing relationship between the cards instead of having to deal with "well actually, mindslaver " whenever someone says lightning bolt and burst lightning are strictly better than shock.

i think serperoth's metrics are good ones for evaluation. mostly i'm of the opinion that identifying the edge case in which in fact searing spear is better than lightning bolt and using it to say "it's not strictly better guyse" is kind of unhealthy card evaluation (if there is such a thing). it's in the same vein as best case scenario mentality where we're evaluating constructed scenarios instead of the realities of how games pan out, or those reddit combo images where there's like eight cards drawn in perfect sequence to build a combo that's still stopped by a counterspell.

also card evaluation metrics are a better topic for this thread than the cyclical nature of bad posting

# ? Mar 25, 2015 14:55

KidDynamite: Feb 11, 2005

mcmagic posted:

The mana for Jund decks is rough though.

You have 12 temples and 8 fetches. How is that rough?

# ? Mar 25, 2015 14:56

mcmagic: Jul 1, 2004; If you see this avatar while scrolling the succ zone, you have been visited by the mcmagic of shitty lib takes! Good luck and prosperity will come to you, but only if you reply "shut the fuck up mcmagic" to this post!

KidDynamite posted:

You have 12 temples and 8 fetches. How is that rough?

Fetches are bad mana fixing and playing 12 temples is too slow in this format.

# ? Mar 25, 2015 15:01

Zonekeeper: Oct 27, 2007

black potus posted:

i think serperoth's metrics are good ones for evaluation. mostly i'm of the opinion that identifying the edge case in which in fact searing spear is better than lightning bolt and using it to say "it's not strictly better guyse" is kind of unhealthy card evaluation (if there is such a thing). it's in the same vein as best case scenario mentality where we're evaluating constructed scenarios instead of the realities of how games pan out, or those reddit combo images where there's like eight cards drawn in perfect sequence to build a combo that's still stopped by a counterspell.

also card evaluation metrics are a better topic for this thread than the cyclical nature of bad posting

It's pretty much the same thing as those idiots who scream "IT DIES TO REMOVAL SO IT SUCKS" any time a card gets spoiled.

# ? Mar 25, 2015 15:29

Dr. Stab: Sep 12, 2010; 👨🏻‍⚕️🩺🔪🙀😱🙀

AlternateNu posted:

So, now that we're done with this cyclical iteration of the "strictly better" chat coming off of reserve list chat. What's next?

Hmmm. Oh, I just saw this killer game of flip + rip where the guy tore a foil Liliana out of a russian Innistrad pack in front of this 11 year old disabled kid who needed that as his last card for the Modern deck he had been slowly buliding over the last 3 years by saving money scrubbing floors at the orphan's home he lives at.

poo poo was baller, yo.

How do you even play flip and rip properly with innistrad? What do you do with the DFC?

# ? Mar 25, 2015 15:35

black potus: Jul 13, 2006

actually maybe it should be its own thread, i think there's a lot to discuss

# ? Mar 25, 2015 15:37

Elyv: Jun 14, 2013

Zonekeeper posted:

It's pretty much the same thing as those idiots who scream "IT DIES TO REMOVAL SO IT SUCKS" any time a card gets spoiled.

This is actually a legitimate argument specifically against expensive creatures which do not give immediate value.

# ? Mar 25, 2015 15:42

black potus: Jul 13, 2006

here i posted a thread for card eval talk: http://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3708597

# ? Mar 25, 2015 15:46

Serperoth: Feb 21, 2013

Elyv posted:

This is actually a legitimate argument specifically against expensive creatures which do not give immediate value.

It's legit against something that will just attract removal for no actual benefit, and has a significant cost. A two-drop that needs to be removed, meaning your opponent will have less removal for your actual big threats, is fine if you ask me, its value is being removed, or at least its value (in deckbuilding) doesn't come from NOT being removed. A 7-drop fatty that just gets shot is much less optimal. You could even say it's :frogsiren:

literally a Time Walk :frogsiren:

for your opponent.

# ? Mar 25, 2015 15:47

CountFosco: Jan 9, 2012; Welcome back to the Liturgigoon thread, friend.

God, I wish eight drops were playable in this format. All I want to do is jam collossus of akros and that new archon of despair guy that exiles a permanent when it ETBs. Is that too much to ask?

# ? Mar 25, 2015 16:27

Ultima66: Sep 2, 2008

CountFosco posted:

God, I wish eight drops were playable in this format. All I want to do is jam collossus of akros and that new archon of despair guy that exiles a permanent when it ETBs. Is that too much to ask?

Um, Colossus is certainly castable for green devotion decks but it just isn't what you want to be doing in any format ever. Ashen Rider had also seen some play in Whip decks when those were still around.

E: Ugin sees plenty of play. This is one of the most friendly formats for casting your 8 drops of all time.

Ultima66 fucked around with this message at 16:52 on Mar 25, 2015

# ? Mar 25, 2015 16:49

Serperoth: Feb 21, 2013

Someone is selling a Mono-U Tron deck, asking for 300 euros for it. List is as follows:

1 Platinum Angel
3 Solemn Simulacrum
1 Sundering Titan
2 Treasure Mage
1 Wurmcoil Engine

4 Condescend
1 Cyclonic Rift
4 Expedition Map
2 Mindslaver
1 Oblivion Stone
4 Remand
4 Repeal
1 Spell Burst
3 Talisman of Dominance
4 Thirst for Knowledge

1 Academy Ruins
1 Oboro, Palace in the Clouds
8 Island
1 Tectonic Edge
1 Tolaria West
4 Urza's Mine
4 Urza's Power Plant
4 Urza's Tower

And the SB:

2 Aetherize
3 Dismember
1 Ghost Quarter
2 Spell Pierse
4 Squelch
1 Wurmcoil Engine

I see no Karns in there, and I have an Ugin of my own, but I don't know if it's good value. The Islands are full-art ones (from what he said), and the Wurmcoils include their tokens, I presume from the Commander deck. Any goon opinion? (If it's long let me know and I'll fix it)

# ? Mar 25, 2015 16:57

Chill la Chill: Jul 2, 2007; Don't lose your gay

Dr. Stab posted:

How do you even play flip and rip properly with innistrad? What do you do with the DFC?

You shuffle away from sight and play. You rip every other card so it doesn't matter if you can see it anyway.

# ? Mar 25, 2015 17:01

Toshimo: Aug 23, 2012; He's outta line...

But he's right!

Serperoth posted:

Someone is selling a Mono-U Tron deck, asking for 300 euros for it. List is as follows:

1 Platinum Angel
3 Solemn Simulacrum
1 Sundering Titan
2 Treasure Mage
1 Wurmcoil Engine

4 Condescend
1 Cyclonic Rift
4 Expedition Map
2 Mindslaver
1 Oblivion Stone
4 Remand
4 Repeal
1 Spell Burst
3 Talisman of Dominance
4 Thirst for Knowledge

1 Academy Ruins
1 Oboro, Palace in the Clouds
8 Island
1 Tectonic Edge
1 Tolaria West
4 Urza's Mine
4 Urza's Power Plant
4 Urza's Tower

And the SB:

2 Aetherize
3 Dismember
1 Ghost Quarter
2 Spell Pierse
4 Squelch
1 Wurmcoil Engine

I see no Karns in there, and I have an Ugin of my own, but I don't know if it's good value. The Islands are full-art ones (from what he said), and the Wurmcoils include their tokens, I presume from the Commander deck. Any goon opinion? (If it's long let me know and I'll fix it)

http://deckstats.net/deck-6301096-9083c22881f6e918fb7577619829a6f8.html

60 Cards 2.64 avg. Modern 134.04 � $ 185.04 95.48 T

Full art Islands or not, unless it comes with solid gold blowjobs, gently caress that guy.

# ? Mar 25, 2015 17:05

Orange Fluffy Sheep: Jul 26, 2008; Bad EXP received

Ultima66 posted:

Um, Colossus is certainly castable for green devotion decks but it just isn't what you want to be doing in any format ever. Ashen Rider had also seen some play in Whip decks when those were still around.

E: Ugin sees plenty of play. This is one of the most friendly formats for casting your 8 drops of all time.

Ugin being an 8-drop is probably what's hurting every other 8-drop. No matter the deck, if you can get to 8 mana, you can cast Ugin.

# ? Mar 25, 2015 17:07

Serperoth: Feb 21, 2013

Toshimo posted:

http://deckstats.net/deck-6301096-9083c22881f6e918fb7577619829a6f8.html

60 Cards 2.64 avg. Modern 134.04 � $ 185.04 95.48 T

Full art Islands or not, unless it comes with solid gold blowjobs, gently caress that guy.

drat that's concise, I'll pore that over and figure out a polite way to mention it.

Also, semi-related, how does the list look, if anyone knows?

# ? Mar 25, 2015 17:07

Zoness: Jul 24, 2011; Talk to the hand.; Grimey Drawer

Toshimo posted:

http://deckstats.net/deck-6301096-9083c22881f6e918fb7577619829a6f8.html

60 Cards 2.64 avg. Modern 134.04 � $ 185.04 95.48 T

Full art Islands or not, unless it comes with solid gold blowjobs, gently caress that guy.

Suddenly I understand why goons want to play mono-U tron so much.

# ? Mar 25, 2015 17:18

Adbot: ADBOT LOVES YOU

# ? May 12, 2024 16:36

TheKingofSprings: Oct 9, 2012

Toshimo posted:

http://deckstats.net/deck-6301096-9083c22881f6e918fb7577619829a6f8.html

60 Cards 2.64 avg. Modern 134.04 � $ 185.04 95.48 T

Full art Islands or not, unless it comes with solid gold blowjobs, gently caress that guy.

Are the blowjobs also full art

# ? Mar 25, 2015 17:28

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Traditional Games > Magic: The Gathering: Megathread: Spoiler Argument Stadium

«‹›1101 »