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Armyman25 posted:Bullshit. Things are as important as you make them. A person's belief in a religion is not contingent on the opinions of other people. Catholic iconography is used all over the place in popular culture. It doesn't detract from the actual belief system itself. I believe hegemony plays a big part in this.
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Mar 25, 2015 14:36
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Armyman25 posted:Bullshit. Things are as important as you make them. A person's belief in a religion is not contingent on the opinions of other people. Catholic iconography is used all over the place in popular culture. It doesn't detract from the actual belief system itself. Well.... 
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Mar 25, 2015 14:38
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Effectronica posted:Do you think that people are completely free of influence from the environment in which they live in? Do you think that Native religions are in an identical situation to Catholicism in America? Of course people are influenced by the environment they grow up in. But at some point they have to decide what it is that they are going to believe and put stock in. I would not say the situation of the religions is identical, but the amount of ignorance surrounding Catholicism in the pop culture is similar.
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Mar 25, 2015 14:42
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Is it really hard for people to understand that white people who wish they were black/asian/native/whatever sometimes looks stupid and people might call them stupid? Is some guy getting a tattoo of "water" in Chinese on their arm really worth defending? There's a lot of people going "well this is less stupid than that, so therefore complaining about that is just as stupid as complaining about this."
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Mar 25, 2015 14:44
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Armyman25 posted:Of course people are influenced by the environment they grow up in. But at some point they have to decide what it is that they are going to believe and put stock in. Okay, but this decision is going to be influenced by that environment. In addition, I wouldn't say that the amount of ignorance is similar, and there aren't any people, say, promoting their own version of Catholicism which is all about getting drunk on sacramental wine and eating fried fish, and which most people treat as identical to the actual Catholic Church. Which is a better place than where many Native religions stand.
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Mar 25, 2015 14:49
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Something that hasn't come up yet: what happens when different members of an ethnic or cultural group feel differently about cultural appropriation? Some Indian people are deeply offended when a white or other non-Indian person wears a bindi, sari, kurta, or other "cultural" dress. Me? I think it's pretty fabulous seeing non-Indian men or women wear our clothes. For some ladies, it can actually turn out pretty drat hot and if it has the added bonus of getting a couple people to learn more about Indian culture? Win all around. One of my favorite family pictures features my (African American) wife in a sari and my (very mixed) daughter in an Indian dress. Can't wait for people to tell my kids that they're appropriating their own culture! (On point: black person "teases" Jay Smooth for "co-opting" black culture when Jay is, uh, actually black.) Edit: When I lived briefly in India, pretty much every young woman would wear a bindi now and then. Including Muslims and Christians and atheists. I asked a Muslim girl why she did it and she said, "Um, because it's fashionable?" Culture shifts and gets passed around, that's the beauty of it. It'd be one thing if someone was making a bindi out of beef jerky just to be spiteful, but otherwise, hey. The Macaroni fucked around with this message at 14:53 on Mar 25, 2015 |
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Mar 25, 2015 14:51
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I just wear the flesh of Indians.
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Mar 25, 2015 14:52
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Effectronica posted:Okay, dude, you're just as much a part of Nigerian culture as a guy from Lagos is.  It's really funny to me that out of all cultural identities you went for one that was explicitly created by white colonialists. So which Nigerian culture are you talking about? Are you talking about the Muslim part or the Christian part? Yoruba, Hausa, or Igbo? If the nation-state of Nigeria has some claim on "Nigerian culture" within its borders, how authentic that claim considering they are the product of imperialism? The moment you accept a notion such as an authentic Nigerian culture, you also accept cultures to form and flourish due to external factors and force.quote:By the way, I enjoyed your sneering assertion that Native Americans are labor aristocrats earlier in the thread. Native Americans are living in literal 3rd world conditions in the United States, and yet when I hear about their problems in the mainstream channels and the social media it's always about some football team. Think about that for a moment. Who gets the real benefit from this discourse? Why does it get propagated widely instead of other issues? blackguy32 posted:I dunno, maybe Japanese people who actually know what context the Kimono is used for and who negative stereotypes affect the most have some say in what it should be used for. They certainly have more claim to it than Katy Perry ever did. What if other Japanese people disagree? quote:Again, no one is stopping you from wearing such things. It just makes you look like a huge shithead when you do. And why should we care?
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Mar 25, 2015 14:53
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The Macaroni posted:Something that hasn't come up yet: what happens when different members of an ethnic or cultural group feel differently about cultural appropriation? Some Indian people are deeply offended when a white or other non-Indian person wears a bindi, sari, kurta, or other "cultural" dress. Me? I think it's pretty fabulous seeing non-Indian men or women wear our clothes. For some ladies, it can actually turn out pretty drat hot and if it has the added bonus of getting a couple people to learn more about Indian culture? Win all around. The same thing that happens whenever people disagree on other stuff in the culture. They discuss it. I mean, not all black people agree on the use of the N-word. Some people think that white people should be able to say it, while others think that no one should say it, while others think its fine for only black people to say it. But to simply discount minority opinion simply because you are upset that people think you are a huge tool for wearing stuff that you know nothing about isn't cool.
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Mar 25, 2015 14:55
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fspades posted:What if other Japanese people disagree? Then they disagree. That doesn't mean you can just ignore everyone else. quote:And why should we care? You don't have to. No one ever said you have to, but it if you really don't care, then maybe you shouldn't be participating in a thread about cultural appropriation.
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Mar 25, 2015 14:58
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Effectronica posted:Motown primarily focused on soul, and deliberately cultivated a sound that couldn't be replicated by white artists, so it actually strengthens the point. Fascinating statement of racial determinism.
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Mar 25, 2015 15:01
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fspades posted:
There are no nations, besides microstates, that are culturally homogeneous. Nigeria is more heterogeneous than the USA, but not so much that we can't say that there is a specifically Nigerian culture while admitting a specifically American one. So your points are just a bunch of gabble. Did you know, well obvious you didn't, that it's largely Native Americans who talk about that and make that an issue? Are they race traitors, or are they considering certain issues important even though they don't revolve around economics?
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Mar 25, 2015 15:06
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TheImmigrant posted:Fascinating statement of racial determinism. The Motown Sound was deliberately crafted so that it was very difficult to replicate, meaning that covered Motown songs would sound distinctly off, meaning that Motown had a cachet that couldn't be easily taken away. Granted, you're just in this to snipe at me, so I dunno, why not do this via PM? Chicken?
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Mar 25, 2015 15:09
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Effectronica posted:Because their ability to say that "this is the meaning of this" in relation to their culture is destroyed. There's always the appropriated stuff with its meanings, itself more powerful than anything the tribe can do. If "spirit animals" are thought of as New Age bullshit, then Native religion becomes bullshit as well, because young people attempting to become part of the religion will still have the New Age nonsense in the back of their heads. If headdresses have no symbolic meaning than "is Indian", then the customs surrounding them become meaningless because "is Indian" outweighs those customs. I don't really see why that is the case. Between people who share the significance of an item or practice, the meaning is preserved, between people who do not share the significance, the meaning was never there to begin with. I don't expect you to understand the meaning of everything with sentimental value to me, and when I die it'll all get either thrown out or sold to people who are completely incapable of appreciating its meaning, but that has absolutely no bearing on how I choose to view it. Unless you expect everyone to share everyone else's ideas of what is meaningful, I don't see how it's supposed to work.
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Mar 25, 2015 15:15
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Someone earlier compared this to GamerGate, and they're exactly right. This is yet another example of privileged white people freaking out when exposed to even the mildest criticism. What do you mean I should think about my own actions?! It is my first amendment right to wear whatever I want and you can't say anything or it is censorship! No one is going to stop you from wearing your stupid Kimono to the supermarket. People have the right to call you an idiot or an rear end in a top hat though.
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Mar 25, 2015 15:30
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Effectronica posted:There are no nations, besides microstates, that are culturally homogeneous. Nigeria is more heterogeneous than the USA, but not so much that we can't say that there is a specifically Nigerian culture while admitting a specifically American one. So your points are just a bunch of gabble. You missed my point. I think there is a Nigerian culture, but you are not understanding the implications of this. Earlier you were going about how something "done" to a culture can only diminish it, and yet here we have a brand new cultural identity directly imposed by white colonialists. Nigerian culture, no matter how valid it is, is an imperialist construct backed by a nation-state. You seem to believe in cultures as these clearly delineated intellectual and social spaces that we must protect from unwelcome intruders; otherwise they'll diminish somehow. But these things are not so easy to untangle from history, and who or which institution has the right over which cultural artifact is actually a hotly debated issue everywhere quote:Did you know, well obvious you didn't, that it's largely Native Americans who talk about that and make that an issue? Are they race traitors, or are they considering certain issues important even though they don't revolve around economics? I'm pretty sure Native American activists complain about other things too. But the complaints that gains traction always happens to be the ones white liberals can use to stick it to their racist neighbor and conveniently ignore the systemic injustice in America and their complacency within it.
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Mar 25, 2015 15:32
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fspades posted:You missed my point. I think there is a Nigerian culture, but you are not understanding the implications of this. Earlier you were going about how something "done" to a culture can only diminish it, and yet here we have a brand new cultural identity directly imposed by white colonialists. Nigerian culture, no matter how valid it is, is an imperialist construct backed by a nation-state. You seem to believe in cultures as these clearly delineated intellectual and social spaces that we must protect from unwelcome intruders; otherwise they'll diminish somehow. But these things are not so easy to untangle from history, and who or which institution has the right over which cultural artifact is actually a hotly debated issue everywhere In other words, Nigerians have no control over their destinies and have not modified their culture, which is distinct from a superposition of all the cultures in Nigeria. LOL. quote:I'm pretty sure Native American activists complain about other things too. But the complaints that gains traction always happens to be the ones white liberals can use to stick it to their racist neighbor and conveniently ignore the systemic injustice in America and their complacency within it. Oh for sure dude. You definitely know a lot more about Native American activism than people who live in the USA possibly could.
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Mar 25, 2015 15:34
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fspades posted:I don't hate leftists, I'm a leftist. I hate what passes as leftism over there and their silly blogs and campus communities. The global warming example (and it is just an example) was given to show you how far you people are up on your own asses, and how little motivation you have to actually change something. Be true to yourselves; who are you trying to discipline when you complain about cultural appropriation? Why are you policing leftists on a message board like a snotty student when global warming exists?
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Mar 25, 2015 15:38
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As a fellow russian living in the UK I agree with the OP, but also the concept is bad and an oversimplification of the incredible complexity of human culture. e: It's cute that some people treat their culture like their possession though, to the extent that they think they have to consent to their culture being modified.
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Mar 25, 2015 15:50
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Lichy posted:e: It's cute that some people treat their culture like their possession though, to the extent that they think they have to consent to their culture being modified. ORIGINAL CULTURE DO NOT STEAL
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Mar 25, 2015 16:20
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The imitation, appropriation, mixing, melding, borrowing, and whatever else that takes place is just the ordinary means of the development and enrichment of human culture and has been since the dawn of time. If western women get to wear saris and indian women get to wear pant suits, all the better for both, since both get more. There is no "this is ours and you can't use or imitate it."
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Mar 25, 2015 16:22
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It's about Respect and keeping the racial bloodlines pure.
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Mar 25, 2015 16:26
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hakimashou posted:The imitation, appropriation, mixing, melding, borrowing, and whatever else that takes place is just the ordinary means of the development and enrichment of human culture and has been since the dawn of time. No, but, you see, it's only bad when white people do it. But not because of systemic discrimination and exclusion of out groups from participating in the white dominated mainstream. No, it's literally "white people see and do the same thing I do and that's why it's bad."
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Mar 25, 2015 16:27
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7c Nickel posted:This is yet another example of privileged white people freaking out when exposed to even the mildest criticism. The favored pasttime of most whites hahaha Edit: most whites have poo poo culture anyways, who cares if they need to steal it from other people to make themselves feel better? Vaginapocalypse fucked around with this message at 16:38 on Mar 25, 2015 |
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Mar 25, 2015 16:33
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B-but it's so hard being white! Waaaaaagh!
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^^^^^ - What?? White culture brought us direct current, alternating current, the computer, and the radio. Just try and tell me that didn't revolutionize most second and first world countries. If anything, non-white cultures stole that from the whites. Thieves! Typical Pubbie posted:No, but, you see, it's only bad when white people do it. But not because of systemic discrimination and exclusion of out groups from participating in the white dominated mainstream. No, it's literally "white people see and do the same thing I do and that's why it's bad." Kinda like when white people use the "n word" in regards to African Americans?  Sorry, that was the most obvious example I could think of. Jakcson fucked around with this message at 16:46 on Mar 25, 2015 |
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Mar 25, 2015 16:37
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It's kind of amazing how many people have posted ITT "I don't understand this thing, and that's your fault" like since when has it been a thing to be loud and proud about ignorance as a debate technique? Don't get it.
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Mar 25, 2015 16:44
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hakimashou posted:The imitation, appropriation, mixing, melding, borrowing, and whatever else that takes place is just the ordinary means of the development and enrichment of human culture and has been since the dawn of time. Sure there is. Go ahead and try to put your own spin on Star Wars, Mickey Mouse, or the Coca-Cola logo out there, for your own profit. See how far you get before the lawyers slap you down. A lot of what people complain about under the umbrella of "cultural appropriation" is commercial designers who translate "traditional" to "royalty-free recognizable images" in their heads, and then do a pretty good re-enactment of the whole "well if you savages wanted to keep your rights to this [intellectual] property you should have protected it according to our rules" dance that has a wee bit of historical precedent in loving people over.
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Mar 25, 2015 16:45
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Popular Thug Drink posted:It's kind of amazing how many people have posted ITT "I don't understand this thing, and that's your fault" like since when has it been a thing to be loud and proud about ignorance as a debate technique? Don't get it. Since people started being very angry about people not understanding things. Burden of proof and all that. Space Gopher posted:Sure there is. Go ahead and try to put your own spin on Star Wars, Mickey Mouse, or the Coca-Cola logo out there, for your own profit. See how far you get before the lawyers slap you down. Do you have a suggestion about how one might realistically enforce laws if "I don't recognise the validity of your legal system" was an acceptable defence? OwlFancier fucked around with this message at 16:55 on Mar 25, 2015 |
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Mar 25, 2015 16:51
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White culture is also about to suffocate us with literal cow farts globally so the judge is still out on that one.
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Mar 25, 2015 16:54
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Space Gopher posted:Sure there is. Go ahead and try to put your own spin on Star Wars, Mickey Mouse, or the Coca-Cola logo out there, for your own profit. See how far you get before the lawyers slap you down. Pouring one out for all the cosplayers arrested by the IP police.
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Mar 25, 2015 16:55
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OwlFancier posted:Since people started being very angry about people not understanding things. Burden of proof and all that. So you accuse other people of being angry, which is what causes you to openly admit multiple times that you simply don't understand the topic of this thread  Ok guy, uh, sure. That makes as much sense as multiple posts declaring thing doesn't exist despite it being patiently explained for six pages now. I'm sure this isn't related to any unwillingness to accept even mild or indirect criticism or anything.
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Mar 25, 2015 16:56
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God drat those cow fart crackers.
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Mar 25, 2015 16:56
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Space Gopher posted:Sure there is. Go ahead and try to put your own spin on Star Wars, Mickey Mouse, or the Coca-Cola logo out there, for your own profit. See how far you get before the lawyers slap you down. Let me know when the lawyers show up.
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Mar 25, 2015 16:56
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Popular Thug Drink posted:So you accuse other people of being angry, which is what causes you to openly admit multiple times that you simply don't understand the topic of this thread I'm saying that if you put forward an argument, it's not unreasonable for people to ask you to defend it. If you don't defend it very well, I don't think that makes it the fault of the person who doesn't agree with the argument. The burden of proof lies with the person making the assertion, generally speaking.
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Mar 25, 2015 16:58
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It's like trying to explain evolution to a creationist 
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Mar 25, 2015 16:59
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Space Gopher posted:Sure there is. Go ahead and try to put your own spin on Star Wars, Mickey Mouse, or the Coca-Cola logo out there, for your own profit. See how far you get before the lawyers slap you down. Not a very good comparison is it? A sari isn't anyones intellectual property. Not all reducognizable images are somone's property. Different groups make different contributions to human culture. We celebrate diversity by actively melding it all together. One of the reasons american culture is so strong is because it has an almost limitlessly diverse base. We're exceptionally promiscuous in our borrowing and imitation, and as in so ma y other contexts, diversity is strength and resilience. hakimashou fucked around with this message at 17:03 on Mar 25, 2015 |
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Mar 25, 2015 17:00
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Vaginapocalypse posted:It's like trying to explain evolution to a creationist
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Mar 25, 2015 17:01
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Space Gopher posted:Sure there is. Go ahead and try to put your own spin on Star Wars, Mickey Mouse, or the Coca-Cola logo out there, for your own profit. See how far you get before the lawyers slap you down. With the first example, there were a few pretty humorous examples of Mickey Mouse being used by various anti-american groups in the middle east they seem to be fine since they don't respect american copyright, there isn't really a problem.  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tomorrow%27s_Pioneers For the second case I agree, in the current system that is obviously appropriation, I assume you are referring to the Bass Pro Shop "native american" design thing which just took a traditional designs, copyrighted them and sold them.
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Mar 25, 2015 17:01
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OwlFancier posted:I'm saying that if you put forward an argument, it's not unreasonable for people to ask you to defend it. If you don't defend it very well, I don't think that makes it the fault of the person who doesn't agree with the argument. The burden of proof lies with the person making the assertion, generally speaking. You literally said you don't understand how people feel like they can have ownership of culture. That's kind of an important thing to understand when you start talking about culture! OwlFancier posted:It is, rather. That person wasn't agreeing with you. How can you be so bad at this? I think I found your problem.
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Mar 25, 2015 17:02
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Vaginapocalypse posted:It's like trying to explain evolution to a creationist I think creationists know how evolution works. They have to know so they can debunk it with "facts". That falls in the realm of willful ignorance, though. I think they know that what they are doing is wrong, but they do it anyway because it serves some sort of agenda. OwlFancier posted:It is, rather. You just literally posted to explain how contractions work?
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Mar 25, 2015 17:03
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